1L Summer Jobs - Prestige Ranking Forum

[Cavalier]

This is silly. The correct ranking is:

1. Summer associate
2. Everything else that's law-related
3. Non-legal job/nothing

Unless you want a job in Criminal or PI work. If so, this is incorrect.

Those people don't count. Give me big law or give me death.

[270910]

This is silly. The correct ranking is:

1. Summer associate
2. Everything else that's law-related
3. Non-legal job/nothing

Unless you want a job in Criminal or PI work. If so, this is incorrect.

Those people don't count. Give me big law or give me death.

Patrick Henry would be proud.

[Veyron]

I would suggest the following hiarchy (not mutualy exclusive of yours)

Paid by employer-->1L summer doc review (zero prestige)
Paid by school-->$8/hr RA @ school (minor prestige)
Unpaid-->fed ct. externship (high prestige)

actually, those are exactly your (incorrect) rankings

By paid by school I meant a stipend such as that recieved for PI work.

[mallard]

I would suggest the following hiarchy (not mutualy exclusive of yours)

Paid by employer-->1L summer doc review (zero prestige)
Paid by school-->$8/hr RA @ school (minor prestige)
Unpaid-->fed ct. externship (high prestige)

actually, those are exactly your (incorrect) rankings

By paid by school I meant a stipend such as that recieved for PI work.

What are you not getting?

[DeweyDell]

This is silly. The correct ranking is:

1. Summer associate
2. Everything else that's law-related
3. Non-legal job/nothing

What is the effect you think of the summer associateship 1L summer ITE? By this I mean, even though the experience might be useful for your 2L summer, do you think some employers would be risk averse to employing a 2L who already had an offer from a 1L summer firm rather than someone who had great grades but did something else their 1L summer and they KNOW will accept their offer since they aren't competing for the person over another firm?

No. Firm work your 1L summer will mean you did it, like it, and have at least gotten your toes wet. It's exclusively a good thing. No employer is going to seriously consider not taking somebody because they might have an offer from their 1L summer. It's just not the way hiring decisions are made. Firms aren't cow-towing to U.S. news (yet) - they all want the best, and they (by and large) also feel like they deserve and can get/win over the best.

Is this the consensus answer here? I will likely be in a position after 1L to summer at a big firm at which I may not ultimately want to stay. If I were an OCI firm this experience in a 2L would be attractive, but I would wonder about animalcracker's concerns as well. As substantive as firms try to make their summer associate experiences seem, there is some sense that the firm is expending resources to attract the student. Is this not the logic behind the extravagant summer events of yore? It seems like employers would want to hedge their bets (to some degree) with students they feel secure will commit to them. How does this valuable experience vs. commitment uncertainty tension balance out in hiring?

[Veyron]

I would suggest the following hiarchy (not mutualy exclusive of yours)

Paid by employer-->1L summer doc review (zero prestige)
Paid by school-->$8/hr RA @ school (minor prestige)
Unpaid-->fed ct. externship (high prestige)

actually, those are exactly your (incorrect) rankings

By paid by school I meant a stipend such as that recieved for PI work.

What are you not getting?

Ok, I see what you are getting at, fed ct. externship is completely unfunded but highly prestigious so therefore should be taken over PI or firm work. Duly noted (although I still have a difficult time believing that it is better than an SA position unless you want academia).

[270910]

This is silly. The correct ranking is:

1. Summer associate
2. Everything else that's law-related
3. Non-legal job/nothing

What is the effect you think of the summer associateship 1L summer ITE? By this I mean, even though the experience might be useful for your 2L summer, do you think some employers would be risk averse to employing a 2L who already had an offer from a 1L summer firm rather than someone who had great grades but did something else their 1L summer and they KNOW will accept their offer since they aren't competing for the person over another firm?

No. Firm work your 1L summer will mean you did it, like it, and have at least gotten your toes wet. It's exclusively a good thing. No employer is going to seriously consider not taking somebody because they might have an offer from their 1L summer. It's just not the way hiring decisions are made. Firms aren't cow-towing to U.S. news (yet) - they all want the best, and they (by and large) also feel like they deserve and can get/win over the best.

Is this the consensus answer here? I will likely be in a position after 1L to summer at a big firm at which I may not ultimately want to stay. If I were an OCI firm this experience in a 2L would be attractive, but I would wonder about animalcracker's concerns as well. As substantive as firms try to make their summer associate experiences seem, there is some sense that the firm is expending resources to attract the student. Is this not the logic behind the extravagant summer events of yore? It seems like employers would want to hedge their bets (to some degree) with students they feel secure will commit to them. How does this valuable experience vs. commitment uncertainty tension balance out in hiring?

Again, no. Animal cracker's concerns are quasi-rational from the outside trying to conceive of how firm hiring would work, but that's not how firm hiring works. Firms are giddy about poaching one another's candidates, and see firm work as a great soft factor to obtaining firm work. Everyone I know who had firm work on their resume had an easier time of getting firm work, career services has noted the positive effect 1L firm work has on getting firm work, etc.

[bilbobaggins]

Ok, I see what you are getting at, fed ct. externship is completely unfunded but highly prestigious so therefore should be taken over PI or firm work. Duly noted (although I still have a difficult time believing that it is better than an SA position unless you want academia).

Amazingly, it's not necessarily better or worse.

As many have pointed out, this is an asinine thing to rank. Your grades will determine your shot at Big Law. If you got a circuit clerkship for 1L summer, but don't have good grades, it will likely not matter.

[thecilent]

I would suggest the following hiarchy (not mutualy exclusive of yours)

Paid by employer-->1L summer doc review (zero prestige)
Paid by school-->$8/hr RA @ school (minor prestige)
Unpaid-->fed ct. externship (high prestige)

actually, those are exactly your (incorrect) rankings

By paid by school I meant a stipend such as that recieved for PI work.

Stop giving 0Ls a bad name please. kthxbai

[mallard]

What are you not getting?

Ok, I see what you are getting at, fed ct. externship is completely unfunded but highly prestigious so therefore should be taken over PI or firm work. Duly noted (although I still have a difficult time believing that it is better than an SA position unless you want academia).

Yes, that's what he was getting at. But personally I don't think externships are particularly prestigious.

[Veyron]

-

[Veyron]

What are you not getting?

Ok, I see what you are getting at, fed ct. externship is completely unfunded but highly prestigious so therefore should be taken over PI or firm work. Duly noted (although I still have a difficult time believing that it is better than an SA position unless you want academia).

Yes, that's what he was getting at. But personally I don't think externships are particularly prestigious.

What makes them unprestigious?

[thecilent]

-

Thanks for the edit. Was about to lulz

[como]

Clearly it's what you can come away with that builds your resume that matters. I'm not talking about resume "headers," but resume "bullet-points."

If you "worked" in a firm but never actually got a substantive assignment (this is just an example), then you will have wishy-washy stuff to add to your resume. If you got to draft a couple MDOs for a district judge, you probably did a lot of research on a few areas of the law you could discuss at interview, you have a polished writing sample, etc.

Simple rankings don't capture what matters in summer positions. Experience is more important than prestige.

[Anonymous User]

What are you not getting?

Ok, I see what you are getting at, fed ct. externship is completely unfunded but highly prestigious so therefore should be taken over PI or firm work. Duly noted (although I still have a difficult time believing that it is better than an SA position unless you want academia).

Yes, that's what he was getting at. But personally I don't think externships are particularly prestigious.

What makes them unprestigious?

They're handed out like candy. It seems like at least a quarter of the students at T10 schools have them and I know many individuals who got them through family connections. This is apparent to anyone who observes the process. They have little impact on future jobs if you don't have the grades to go with them.

[rayiner]

What are you not getting?

Ok, I see what you are getting at, fed ct. externship is completely unfunded but highly prestigious so therefore should be taken over PI or firm work. Duly noted (although I still have a difficult time believing that it is better than an SA position unless you want academia).

Yes, that's what he was getting at. But personally I don't think externships are particularly prestigious.

Externships aren't prestigious.

1L summer job does have some bearing on the job, in the sense that if you are in the grades ballpark, it can give you the bump versus other candidates. Firm jobs help, and so do competitive federal things like SEC, DOJ. That being said, "prestige" isn't really the big factor here. A good 1L job gives you something to talk about in the interview and helps you show that you're particularly interested in a field of law and are actively pursing it. This can help you buy a lot of "fit" points.

[mallard]

rayiner and the anonymous (why?) user above him said what I was hoping to say better than I planned.

[bilbobaggins]

rayiner and the anonymous (why?) user above him said what I was hoping to say better than I planned.

I hit the wrong quote button and by then it was too late!

[mallard]

rayiner is absolutely right about it being "fit" and demonstration of interest. Because of that, for a certain interview, certain in-house or government or even research assistant work may help a lot. But firm work almost always helps because it shows interest in working at a firm, and experience; and if you get a good recommendation, shows you'll be competent.

[Lawrence]

I don't think its impossible to rank 1L summer jobs roughly by prestige. Although, I don't think OP's list does so all that accurately. However, I don't see the use in doing so because I don't think it really matters. A district court judge may be slightly more prestigous than a magistrate judge, but are hiring decisions really being made on that basis? I doubt it. Is anyone really saying these two students were both RA's, but student 1's professor has more published articles so lets go with him? I doubt that too. I think the best advice is to do something where you will actually learn. Also, if you know what area you want to be in, try to do something in that area so you can show your commitment. If you want to do criminal work try for USAO, DA, Public defender. If you want to do litigation try to work with a judge. (Assuming you can't get a paid firm job, which a huge majority can't)

[chicagolaw2013]

0Ls shouldn't be allowed in the employment forum.

Unless they contribute something, which I won't here, but have anonymously elsewhere.

[DeweyDell]

Again, no. Animal cracker's concerns are quasi-rational from the outside trying to conceive of how firm hiring would work, but that's not how firm hiring works. Firms are giddy about poaching one another's candidates, and see firm work as a great soft factor to obtaining firm work. Everyone I know who had firm work on their resume had an easier time of getting firm work, career services has noted the positive effect 1L firm work has on getting firm work, etc.

Good to hear that from someone who's seen this in action. To Mallard's suggestion, I think I could swing a very solid recommendation from a senior partner here as well, so hopefully that will amplify the resume listing.

0L question: will firms always request/accept recommendations? And where do firms prefer you pull recommendations from?

Clearly it's what you can come away with that builds your resume that matters. I'm not talking about resume "headers," but resume "bullet-points."

If you "worked" in a firm but never actually got a substantive assignment (this is just an example), then you will have wishy-washy stuff to add to your resume. If you got to draft a couple MDOs for a district judge, you probably did a lot of research on a few areas of the law you could discuss at interview, you have a polished writing sample, etc.

Simple rankings don't capture what matters in summer positions. Experience is more important than prestige.

Excuse my naivete here, but you seem to suggest that a writing sample would be valuable to show to a firm. Do firms generally request writing samples from applicants?

I also gather that not all SAs will come away from their experience with a workable writing sample. Should/how can an SA work to make that happen?

[ggocat]

1. Do firms generally request writing samples from applicants?

2. I also gather that not all SAs will come away from their experience with a workable writing sample. Should/how can an SA work to make that happen?

1. For OCI, generally yes.

2. They'll have you write something.

[270910]

Again, no. Animal cracker's concerns are quasi-rational from the outside trying to conceive of how firm hiring would work, but that's not how firm hiring works. Firms are giddy about poaching one another's candidates, and see firm work as a great soft factor to obtaining firm work. Everyone I know who had firm work on their resume had an easier time of getting firm work, career services has noted the positive effect 1L firm work has on getting firm work, etc.

Good to hear that from someone who's seen this in action. To Mallard's suggestion, I think I could swing a very solid recommendation from a senior partner here as well, so hopefully that will amplify the resume listing.

0L question: will firms always request/accept recommendations? And where do firms prefer you pull recommendations from?

No firm I have ever heard of asks for letters of recommendation, and only a very few even ask for / look at a list of references. If you want to you can include either reference lists or letters of recommendations in cold resume drops, and that might help. But think about it for a second: If you get an offer (or are still in the running to get an offer) from your 1L firm, are you really going to want to saunter in to a partner's office and say "SO BUDDY, I'M APPLYING TO SOME OTHER BIG FIRMS, WANNA HELP ME OUT?" There's a tacit assumption that references are from those who know you well but are not in direct competition for you. It's possible you'll list a professor or non-legal employer as a reference, and those who have non-offering 1L positions (with judges, etc.) can likely list those people as references - but I can't conceive of a scenario where it would be wise to list a reference from a firm that might be giving you an offer. Talk about an awkward conversation.

Very few firms even call references, though, so it's kind of moot.

1. Do firms generally request writing samples from applicants?

2. I also gather that not all SAs will come away from their experience with a workable writing sample. Should/how can an SA work to make that happen?

1. For OCI, generally yes.

2. They'll have you write something.

Re: #1 - I disagree with ggocat. Less than 20% of the firms I bid on for OCI required a writing sample. I'll bring one with to every interview just in case, but writing samples are after thoughts at most firms - at least as part of the on campus recruitment process. They might matter more for any mass mail (target or otherwise) job hunt.

Re: #2 - you always have the work you do in your 1L legal writing class to use as a writing sample. Getting a WS out of your summer job isn't a slam dunk - both based on the type of work you might be doing and on confidentiality matters. I know many judges who refuse to let any work done for them be used as a writing sample, which is a wise policy considering the sensitive nature of the work you can get even as a lowly 1L intern. The same often happens with firms. No matter what, be sure to ask.

[ggocat]

Re: #1 - I disagree with ggocat. Less than 20% of the firms I bid on for OCI required a writing sample. I'll bring one with to every interview just in case, but writing samples are after thoughts at most firms - at least as part of the on campus recruitment process. They might matter more for any mass mail (target or otherwise) job hunt.

Nifty. I think I submitted one for most of my OCI bids. Maybe this depends on market.