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Burger in a can

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Re: Any Public Defenders [or interns] here?

Post by Burger in a can » Mon Jul 12, 2010 1:28 am

Thanks for this thread. It's great to read about something other than biglaw on this site. :)

articulably suspect

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Re: Any Public Defenders [or interns] here?

Post by articulably suspect » Mon Jul 12, 2010 1:32 am

"Generally DAs and USAs are the boyscout/ law and order types. A lot of them are ex-military or ex-cops."

I agree with you on your first anecdote, not so much on the second. I know a few who are ex-military, but none that are ex-cops. My anecdotal info anyway

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Re: Any Public Defenders [or interns] here?

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Jul 12, 2010 3:16 am

Question for those of you in law school - With the economy the way it is, are you finding that more and more people are trying to go the PD/ADA route? I'm curious so that I can at least get a vague idea of what the competition will be like.

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leobowski

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Re: Any Public Defenders [or interns] here?

Post by leobowski » Mon Jul 12, 2010 4:08 pm

articulably suspect wrote: Over-entitled? Also, it's not the role of the probation department to work towards an end that is most desirable for the prosecution. Often times probation officers recommend sentences that are very much "lighter" than that which the DA's office is pushing for. In other words, they are not beholden to any other agency our department, they are supposed to be an objective arm of the criminal justice system.

Don't the DA's offices need more attorney's, investigators and staff?

Just speaking from experience in the two areas I've worked: P.O.s are a bunch of uppity, over-entitled social workers. They commonly participate in ex parte meetings and cause trouble for everyone. DAs/USAs and PDs/FPDs both dislike them equally. It has not been my experience that they push for lighter sentences than the prosecution, despite getting a full month to put together a PSR. They typically push for the max guideline sentence or an upward variance regardless of the defendant's circumstances. It's funny to read their responses when they get all huffy, as if some social worker with a criminal justice degree can craft a legal argument or even understand what's at issue. Again this is my personal experience/opinion, and may not be the same everywhere.

I'll concede that the DAs need more resources to contend with defendants who retain private counsel. But the disparity in resources is pretty ridiculous. In my district, the USAs outnumber the FPDs about 5:1. That's a little ridiculous. *Again this is my personal experience and my bad if I've generalized*

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Re: Any Public Defenders [or interns] here?

Post by 00TREX00 » Mon Jul 12, 2010 8:46 pm

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Re: Any Public Defenders [or interns] here?

Post by apropos » Wed Jul 14, 2010 4:47 pm

00TREX00 wrote:This is the line of work I'm headed to, and I've heard that (from an admittedly NY centric point of view) that the really good PD offices that hire entry level attorneys and train them are:

1. Bronx Defenders

2. Washington D.C. PD

3. Federal Defenders of San Diego

4. PD of New Orleans

There is a big disconnect between PD offices that actually care about their mission and those that are pretty much entirely complicit in the assembly line justice system.
This is a great thread, thanks for the information everyone.

I'm curious now especially about the Federal Defenders of San Diego. Where do they recruit from? Someone above asked if it's advisable to go to local schools for PD, and I noticed on the FDSD that their posted recruiting schedule mostly goes to non-local top schools.

For FDSD specifically, but also other places generally, is it best to go to a local school (for, perhaps $$, or just for the sake of being local) or to go to the best school possible?

And any info around this would be appreciated. I'm a 00L and I'm just starting to explore everything.

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Re: Any Public Defenders [or interns] here?

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jul 14, 2010 4:53 pm

00TREX00 wrote:This is the line of work I'm headed to, and I've heard that (from an admittedly NY centric point of view) that the really good PD offices that hire entry level attorneys and train them are:

1. Bronx Defenders

2. Washington D.C. PD

3. Federal Defenders of San Diego

4. PD of New Orleans

There is a big disconnect between PD offices that actually care about their mission and those that are pretty much entirely complicit in the assembly line justice system.
Washington, DC is called the Public Defender Service. That's insanely prestigious, in part because DC is covered by federal law and AUSAs prosecute cases, meaning the PDs are up against some tough, tough competition. They're federal defenders, essentially. But it's also insanely competitive, possibly the hardest-to-get PD job in the country.

Orleans Public Defenders can crush your soul. I interned there briefly. If PD work is soul-crushing, being an OPD is 10x that. The legal system there is so fucking broken, it will be hard for you to bear working there for very long.

Legal Aid Society in NYC is a good place to work. You will have a very heavy caseload very early on, but you will also get respect for carrying that caseload and have something impressive on your resume.

If you want to work at any of those three places, do not work for a DA. They will throw away your resume. There are some places where working for a DA won't hurt your chances with a PD, but these aren't them. DC PDS will even ask you during your interview if you've ever interviewed with or applied for a job with a DA. If you say yes, and don't have a good answer for why, you're pretty much done.

HTH.

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Re: Any Public Defenders [or interns] here?

Post by 00TREX00 » Wed Jul 14, 2010 8:58 pm

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Re: Any Public Defenders [or interns] here?

Post by apropos » Wed Jul 14, 2010 10:12 pm

00TREX00 wrote:
I'm curious now especially about the Federal Defenders of San Diego. Where do they recruit from? Someone above asked if it's advisable to go to local schools for PD, and I noticed on the FDSD that their posted recruiting schedule mostly goes to non-local top schools.

For FDSD specifically, but also other places generally, is it best to go to a local school (for, perhaps $$, or just for the sake of being local) or to go to the best school possible?

And any info around this would be appreciated. I'm a 00L and I'm just starting to explore everything.

As you said, from their OCI appearances, it seems as though the Federal Defenders of San Diego like prestige. This was confirmed for me by my 1L summer internship supervisor, who used to work there. I doubt they do too much entry-level hiring from schools like USD, although I assume you'd have a decent chance if you kicked ass at UCLA or SC.

Federal Defenders of SD gets you trial experience almost immediately out the gate in District Court.
Wow. Sounds like a great place.
Thanks for the quick reply. For the sake of contingency planning, are there other routes to the Federal Defenders of San Diego? You said "entry level" so I suspect there are. Do they hire good people out of other PD offices?
Can you tell me any other known-to-be-good places to work as a PD in Cali? I like this career option and would like to live in Cali, but not in LA or SF.

Anyways, thanks again. Lots of questions, but this is all really helpful.

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apropos

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Re: Any Public Defenders [or interns] here?

Post by apropos » Wed Jul 14, 2010 10:25 pm

apropos wrote:
00TREX00 wrote:
I'm curious now especially about the Federal Defenders of San Diego. Where do they recruit from? Someone above asked if it's advisable to go to local schools for PD, and I noticed on the FDSD that their posted recruiting schedule mostly goes to non-local top schools.

For FDSD specifically, but also other places generally, is it best to go to a local school (for, perhaps $$, or just for the sake of being local) or to go to the best school possible?

And any info around this would be appreciated. I'm a 00L and I'm just starting to explore everything.

As you said, from their OCI appearances, it seems as though the Federal Defenders of San Diego like prestige. This was confirmed for me by my 1L summer internship supervisor, who used to work there. I doubt they do too much entry-level hiring from schools like USD, although I assume you'd have a decent chance if you kicked ass at UCLA or SC.

Federal Defenders of SD gets you trial experience almost immediately out the gate in District Court.
Wow. Sounds like a great place.
Thanks for the quick reply. For the sake of contingency planning, are there other routes to the Federal Defenders of San Diego? You said "entry level" so I suspect there are. Do they hire good people out of other PD offices?
Can you tell me any other known-to-be-good places to work as a PD in Cali? I like this career option and would like to live in Cali, but not in LA or SF.

Anyways, thanks again. Lots of questions, but this is all really helpful.
Well I kind of jumped the gun there. Most of that information was pretty easy to find.

So it looks like there are two ways into this type of great PD job: Prestigious law school, or moving upwards from a lower-level PD job (and local is best). Is that right?

And still any info on other good places to work PD in Cali would be greatly appreciated.

So much info here on (not) getting BigLaw, not so much for this kind of stuff.

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Re: Any Public Defenders [or interns] here?

Post by ScaredWorkedBored » Wed Jul 14, 2010 11:54 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Question for those of you in law school - With the economy the way it is, are you finding that more and more people are trying to go the PD/ADA route? I'm curious so that I can at least get a vague idea of what the competition will be like.
I had a lot of PD/DA minded friends in law school. All of them are in rough shape right now because of the hiring freezes that were mentioned at the start of the thread. These are some pretty damn committed, elite people. All of them did double internships in the field and most worked in clinical programs as well. One of them worked in an innocence project & helped overturn a life sentence wrongful conviction.

None of this is helping them get a job because a state hiring freeze means just that. No money for the position. That's a reality right now and until state budgets get fixed, it's going to remain a huge problem.

Hiring freezes for PD's are pretty stupid because silly 6th Amendment just means that court has to hire outside appointments instead (which cost much more per hour than the state employee PD) but states are still doing the hiring freezes.

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robin600

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Re: Any Public Defenders [or interns] here?

Post by robin600 » Thu Jul 15, 2010 1:04 am

How prestigious does your school need to be HYS? I'm going to a T20, prestigious enough?

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JusticeHarlan

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Re: Any Public Defenders [or interns] here?

Post by JusticeHarlan » Thu Jul 15, 2010 1:35 am

I did a summer internship during high school college with a public defender's office, it was a fantastic experience. We did every kind of case: murder, mugging, sexual assault, drug busts, even an armored car robbery. I was given a surprising amount of substantive work, from going over grand jury testimony, to doing legal research on all kinds of issues (constructive possession standards for drug cases, whether a 911 call was admissible on Crawford v. Washington and Davis v. Washington standards, etc), sitting in murder cases and taking notes to confer with the attorneys, etc. The attorneys were overworked as hell, but what attorneys aren't? They honestly seemed to love their job and have drive for it. And when you do get a case where you can save an innocent man from going to jail for a crime he didn't commit, it's the best feeling in the world.

For what its worth, most of the lawyers there were from local third or fourth tier schools.

Feel free to ask me if you have any questions, either on this thread of (if you want specifics) via PM.
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Re: Any Public Defenders [or interns] here?

Post by Burger in a can » Thu Jul 15, 2010 1:58 am

JusticeHarlan wrote:I did a summer internship during high school with a public defender's office, it was a fantastic experience. We did every kind of case: murder, mugging, sexual assault, drug busts, even an armored car robbery. I was given a surprising amount of substantive work, from going over grand jury testimony, to doing legal research on all kinds of issues (constructive possession standards for drug cases, whether a 911 call was admissible on Crawford v. Washington and Davis v. Washington standards, etc), sitting in murder cases and taking notes to confer with the attorneys, etc. The attorneys were overworked as hell, but what attorneys aren't? They honestly seemed to love their job and have drive for it. And when you do get a case where you can save an innocent man from going to jail for a crime he didn't commit, it's the best feeling in the world.

For what its worth, most of the lawyers there were from local third or fourth tier schools.

Feel free to ask me if you have any questions, either on this thread of (if you want specifics) via PM.
How long ago was this? (High school was 10+ years ago for me, so I'm just trying to get a feel for the chronology here)

Edit- I am specifically wondering about the relevance of the bolded due to the current economy. Is this still true, even nowadays?

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Re: Any Public Defenders [or interns] here?

Post by JusticeHarlan » Thu Jul 15, 2010 2:17 am

Burger in a can wrote:
JusticeHarlan wrote:I did a summer internship during high school with a public defender's office, it was a fantastic experience. We did every kind of case: murder, mugging, sexual assault, drug busts, even an armored car robbery. I was given a surprising amount of substantive work, from going over grand jury testimony, to doing legal research on all kinds of issues (constructive possession standards for drug cases, whether a 911 call was admissible on Crawford v. Washington and Davis v. Washington standards, etc), sitting in murder cases and taking notes to confer with the attorneys, etc. The attorneys were overworked as hell, but what attorneys aren't? They honestly seemed to love their job and have drive for it. And when you do get a case where you can save an innocent man from going to jail for a crime he didn't commit, it's the best feeling in the world.

For what its worth, most of the lawyers there were from local third or fourth tier schools.

Feel free to ask me if you have any questions, either on this thread of (if you want specifics) via PM.
How long ago was this? (High school was 10+ years ago for me, so I'm just trying to get a feel for the chronology here)

Edit- I am specifically wondering about the relevance of the bolded due to the current economy. Is this still true, even nowadays?
Woops, my bad, I meant in college. I'll fix my post. It was 2 years ago. Most of the attorneys had been there for some time, if that gives you an indication.

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Re: Any Public Defenders [or interns] here?

Post by Tanicius » Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:19 am

Burger in a can wrote:
JusticeHarlan wrote:I did a summer internship during high school with a public defender's office, it was a fantastic experience. We did every kind of case: murder, mugging, sexual assault, drug busts, even an armored car robbery. I was given a surprising amount of substantive work, from going over grand jury testimony, to doing legal research on all kinds of issues (constructive possession standards for drug cases, whether a 911 call was admissible on Crawford v. Washington and Davis v. Washington standards, etc), sitting in murder cases and taking notes to confer with the attorneys, etc. The attorneys were overworked as hell, but what attorneys aren't? They honestly seemed to love their job and have drive for it. And when you do get a case where you can save an innocent man from going to jail for a crime he didn't commit, it's the best feeling in the world.

For what its worth, most of the lawyers there were from local third or fourth tier schools.

Feel free to ask me if you have any questions, either on this thread of (if you want specifics) via PM.
How long ago was this? (High school was 10+ years ago for me, so I'm just trying to get a feel for the chronology here)

Edit- I am specifically wondering about the relevance of the bolded due to the current economy. Is this still true, even nowadays?
If you're talking about a suburb or a smaller city like Columbus or St. Louis, the Tier 3-4 roster is the norm. Most PD offices in the country do not hire based off of prestige. The point is to get attorneys who can hold their own in the courtroom, period. At a lot of offices I've been to the T-20 schools are thought of elitist and overly academic. This shouldn't be interpreted to mean that T-1 and T-20 student are going to have trouble landing PD jobs if they want them, though -- they just have to prove to the potential employer that public defense is something they both want to do and are good at.

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Re: Any Public Defenders [or interns] here?

Post by 00TREX00 » Thu Jul 15, 2010 5:03 pm

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Re: Any Public Defenders [or interns] here?

Post by Andreeai » Thu Jul 15, 2010 5:09 pm

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Re: Any Public Defenders [or interns] here?

Post by Burger in a can » Thu Jul 15, 2010 5:18 pm

00TREX00 wrote:
I think this is definitely true - you might encounter some push-back from the attorneys at the average PD if you are from an elite law school. I experienced this during an internship interview where I casually said, "We have a database of summer internship evaluations at my law school, but no one has worked at your organization before." My interviewer quickly shot back a line about how it doesn't matter what law school someone goes to, "NOT AT ALL!"

I was taken aback (because I really wasn't trying to talk about my LS and don't give a fuck) but I understand where it comes from. A lot of PDs come from poorly regarded schools and are excellent attorneys, particularly at trial. I can understand if some of them resent students from more entitled schools.

That said, I think it is still an asset to go to a better, rather than worse, law school.

Finally, here are some good resources collected on PSLawnet - I don't know if you have to sign up for the website first. http://pslawnet.org/prosecutor-publicdefendercareers
Awesome! Thanks.

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Re: Any Public Defenders [or interns] here?

Post by king3780 » Thu Jul 15, 2010 5:24 pm

I am interested in going the PD route, but my concern is something that people ITT have alluded to: most of the PDs they've worked with have been there since the 1970s. Throw in state hiring freezes across the country and it makes me think "who cares how much I'd like to be a PD, there's no work!" I've checked a few counties I'm interested in and they have no young attorneys. I realize the legal market sucks for just about all areas, but it seems virtually nonexistent for PDs.

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Re: Any Public Defenders [or interns] here?

Post by Tanicius » Thu Jul 15, 2010 5:52 pm

king3780 wrote:I am interested in going the PD route, but my concern is something that people ITT have alluded to: most of the PDs they've worked with have been there since the 1970s. Throw in state hiring freezes across the country and it makes me think "who cares how much I'd like to be a PD, there's no work!" I've checked a few counties I'm interested in and they have no young attorneys. I realize the legal market sucks for just about all areas, but it seems virtually nonexistent for PDs.
Right now it is, but it won't be in a few years or shit's really going to hit the fan and stuff is going to start getting back up more than standard 1-2 years. Even in Minnesota where Pawlenty has done an excellent job of ruining the judicial system, he released a budget more favorable to the PD office than MN's congress because he realized things were going to get very, very bad if the PD's couldn't do their jobs due to overload.

If you're concerned about some kind of stigma against young PD's, don't be. My hometown's office has at least half a dozen PD's who have been practicing for less than 10 years. The fact of the matter is that a lot of baby boomers are going to start retiring real fast, too.

For the sake of argument, we could assume the very worst of both of those two worlds above... Just come back to public defense in 5-10 years if you want. State district offices will take anyone promising. It's not like biglaw where if you don't do it out of law school you're boned forever.

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Re: Any Public Defenders [or interns] here?

Post by leobowski » Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:42 pm

apropos wrote:
00TREX00 wrote:
I'm curious now especially about the Federal Defenders of San Diego. Where do they recruit from? Someone above asked if it's advisable to go to local schools for PD, and I noticed on the FDSD that their posted recruiting schedule mostly goes to non-local top schools.

For FDSD specifically, but also other places generally, is it best to go to a local school (for, perhaps $$, or just for the sake of being local) or to go to the best school possible?

And any info around this would be appreciated. I'm a 00L and I'm just starting to explore everything.

As you said, from their OCI appearances, it seems as though the Federal Defenders of San Diego like prestige. This was confirmed for me by my 1L summer internship supervisor, who used to work there. I doubt they do too much entry-level hiring from schools like USD, although I assume you'd have a decent chance if you kicked ass at UCLA or SC.

Federal Defenders of SD gets you trial experience almost immediately out the gate in District Court.
Wow. Sounds like a great place.
Thanks for the quick reply. For the sake of contingency planning, are there other routes to the Federal Defenders of San Diego? You said "entry level" so I suspect there are. Do they hire good people out of other PD offices?
Can you tell me any other known-to-be-good places to work as a PD in Cali? I like this career option and would like to live in Cali, but not in LA or SF.

Anyways, thanks again. Lots of questions, but this is all really helpful.

Federal Public Defenders don't hire entry-level attorneys anywhere in the country. You'll need at least 5 years of experience in the less desirable areas, and more in bigger cities.

king3780 wrote:I am interested in going the PD route, but my concern is something that people ITT have alluded to: most of the PDs they've worked with have been there since the 1970s. Throw in state hiring freezes across the country and it makes me think "who cares how much I'd like to be a PD, there's no work!" I've checked a few counties I'm interested in and they have no young attorneys. I realize the legal market sucks for just about all areas, but it seems virtually nonexistent for PDs.

There are hiring freezes yes, but PD offices also have a ton of turnover. I wouldn't be to worried about it.

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Re: Any Public Defenders [or interns] here?

Post by 00TREX00 » Thu Jul 15, 2010 11:03 pm

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Re: Any Public Defenders [or interns] here?

Post by Burger in a can » Thu Jul 15, 2010 11:24 pm

leobowski wrote:

There are hiring freezes yes, but PD offices also have a ton of turnover. I wouldn't be to worried about it.
Wow, really? That's the first time I've ever read a TLS comment telling someone NOT to worry about employment prospects! I am terrified that I won't be able to find a job, but I guess I'll just do the best I can and see what happens...

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Re: Any Public Defenders [or interns] here?

Post by leobowski » Fri Jul 16, 2010 1:33 pm

00TREX00 wrote:
Federal Public Defenders don't hire entry-level attorneys anywhere in the country. You'll need at least 5 years of experience in the less desirable areas, and more in bigger cities.
Incorrect. Federal Defenders of San Diego is the only one that does, and they make new entry level hires pretty much every year. Don't make blanket statements unless you definitely know what you're talking about.

Dude, chill. I've never seen an entry-level job on the fd.ord website, and an attorney I work with confirmed that. If the San Diego FPD does hire entry-level attorneys, great, but there's no need to get all huffy.

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

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