Getting a job without "ties." Forum

[Renzo]

If we're doing anecdotes, most of the people I know are either 1) Staying in Boston 2) Going to NY or DC (where they may or may not have ties, but these markets don't require ties) or 3) Going home. But I do know people who went places where they had no particular ties, and I can't think of anyone who really wanted to go to a particular market and tried hard to get there but weren't able to.

Right. Who wakes up and says, "well, I've never been to Cleveland, and I don't know anyone there, but I'd really like to move there and work for free for the summer!"

[dresden doll]

I think we are pretty much in agreement then. If you read my first post - "unless you are T3-6, good luck without them." The point in identifying H & C students as having ties was hyperbole and then saying "may have a grain of truth." Not to show a requirement for T6 students. Either way. This distinction does not matter for 99% of Law students. Ties are important in general.

I go to a T6 and the Career Services person I had spoken to a few times over during my 1L year peppered me with how NYC will be hard to get to for someone in my position that has no ties to NYC ITE.

Now, I don't know that he knows what he's talking about 90 percent of the time, but I just wanted to throw that one out there.

[NewHere]

The vast majority of students even at top schools will be doing public interest work their 1L summer so I'm not sure that the fact that it will be hard to get a paying firm job in Chattanooga 1L summer is a real problem.

I don't think I said this would be a problem. The only thing I was trying to say in my first post on this thread was that firms (by which I mean for-profit firms, not public-interest organizations) look for ties, and that they are more likely to look for ties for 1L summer than for 2L summer.

But you're right that most students don't do firm work their 1L summer.

[Core]

I'm working in my home market as a 1L, and literally 100% of the law students I know returned to a home market or stayed at school (to RA or work in the local area) for their first year summer. Every single one.

Edit: Thought of one exception, so strike that. I know one person who got a job in a market that I don't believe they grew up or went to college / LS in. But I know an awful lot of 1Ls, so...

Ties are important and you can't use a purely rational approach to determine why. If you're a firm in Atlanta and you have to decide between the guy who has a resume dripping with The South and a guy who spent his life growing up in Seattle, odds are you're going to like the guy with ties. You'll understand him, you'll have more to talk about, you'll have more respect for the things on the resume that only a 'native' might understand, you'll likely know people who engaged in similar activities, etc. And for the 1L job, that kind of thing is the difference between getting a phone call and becoming one of the 2,000,000 other resumes in the pile for the 3 attorney law firm.

If we're doing anecdotes, most of the people I know are either 1) Staying in Boston 2) Going to NY or DC (where they may or may not have ties, but these markets don't require ties) or 3) Going home. But I do know people who went places where they had no particular ties, and I can't think of anyone who really wanted to go to a particular market and tried hard to get there but weren't able to.

You sure about that? I was under the impression D.C. was a very tough market to break into, one requiring ties.

[270910]

I'm working in my home market as a 1L, and literally 100% of the law students I know returned to a home market or stayed at school (to RA or work in the local area) for their first year summer. Every single one.

Edit: Thought of one exception, so strike that. I know one person who got a job in a market that I don't believe they grew up or went to college / LS in. But I know an awful lot of 1Ls, so...

Ties are important and you can't use a purely rational approach to determine why. If you're a firm in Atlanta and you have to decide between the guy who has a resume dripping with The South and a guy who spent his life growing up in Seattle, odds are you're going to like the guy with ties. You'll understand him, you'll have more to talk about, you'll have more respect for the things on the resume that only a 'native' might understand, you'll likely know people who engaged in similar activities, etc. And for the 1L job, that kind of thing is the difference between getting a phone call and becoming one of the 2,000,000 other resumes in the pile for the 3 attorney law firm.

If we're doing anecdotes, most of the people I know are either 1) Staying in Boston 2) Going to NY or DC (where they may or may not have ties, but these markets don't require ties) or 3) Going home. But I do know people who went places where they had no particular ties, and I can't think of anyone who really wanted to go to a particular market and tried hard to get there but weren't able to.

You sure about that? I was under the impression D.C. was a very tough market to break into, one requiring ties.

In my experience, ties or pedigree. NYC is probably possible for a median student at Chicago (maybe not likely ITE, but it used to be likely and it's still definitely possible) who has never been to the east coast. DC is easier to crack with ties no doubt, but firms have an enormously snobby reputation and I know several people with top flight grades/schools who made it with no ties.

[Renzo]

You sure about that? I was under the impression D.C. was a very tough market to break into, one requiring ties.

DC is tough because it's hyper-competitive. People from all over, and from good schools with impressive resumes, want to work in the big firms and big government jobs. Credentials, not ties, will get you into those jobs.

[Anonymous User]

You sure about that? I was under the impression D.C. was a very tough market to break into, one requiring ties.

DC is tough because it's hyper-competitive. People from all over, and from good schools with impressive resumes, want to work in the big firms and big government jobs. Credentials, not ties, will get you into those jobs.

Ties still help a lot. I go to UVA, so we had a huge number of people trying to break into the Washington, DC market. The top of the class had no problem, but the strong-but-not-top-of-the-class people were, as I understand it, disproportionately successful where they had ties. I heard somebody refer to it as the 'dc type'. I'm positive that any body here with top 10% grades will be in the running for DC no matter what they did in past lives, but it seems that the people with resumes thick with DC experience did much better at OGI in DC at all point south.

Obviously this is for OGI and 'pipeline' recruiting, but it seems like a worthy clarification.

[Cleareyes]

Eh. I think that work experience and connections to the power structure in DC are helpful, but from what I've seen (albeit very limited) lik having grown up in DC wouldn't be helpful in the way that having grown up in Chattanooga would. It's connections and experience vs 'ties.' DC firms/federal government aren't really worried that people will get bored and restless and bolt.

[Core]

You sure about that? I was under the impression D.C. was a very tough market to break into, one requiring ties.

DC is tough because it's hyper-competitive. People from all over, and from good schools with impressive resumes, want to work in the big firms and big government jobs. Credentials, not ties, will get you into those jobs.

Gotcha. Thanks.

[FlightoftheEarls]

I think we are pretty much in agreement then. If you read my first post - "unless you are T3-6, good luck without them." The point in identifying H & C students as having ties was hyperbole and then saying "may have a grain of truth." Not to show a requirement for T6 students. Either way. This distinction does not matter for 99% of Law students. Ties are important in general.

I go to a T6 and the Career Services person I had spoken to a few times over during my 1L year peppered me with how NYC will be hard to get to for someone in my position that has no ties to NYC ITE.

Now, I don't know that he knows what he's talking about 90 percent of the time, but I just wanted to throw that one out there.

Dres - we're getting much of the same info at Michigan re: NYC, which rather surprised me. Most people on here discuss NYC as the market where everybody is arrogant enough to think everyone would want to be there anyway, but I've heard mentioned in one of our regional talks that ties are still somewhat important for NYC. That said, I've also heard anecdotally of people who weren't even asked "Why NYC?" despite lacking ties, and many who were able to answer that quite easily with an explanation of that they want Corporate/capital markets/M&A/corporate restructure/finance & banking. By all reports, that was more than sufficient.

[Anonymous User]

I think we are pretty much in agreement then. If you read my first post - "unless you are T3-6, good luck without them." The point in identifying H & C students as having ties was hyperbole and then saying "may have a grain of truth." Not to show a requirement for T6 students. Either way. This distinction does not matter for 99% of Law students. Ties are important in general.

I go to a T6 and the Career Services person I had spoken to a few times over during my 1L year peppered me with how NYC will be hard to get to for someone in my position that has no ties to NYC ITE.

Now, I don't know that he knows what he's talking about 90 percent of the time, but I just wanted to throw that one out there.

Dres - we're getting much of the same info at Michigan re: NYC, which rather surprised me. Most people on here discuss NYC as the market where everybody is arrogant enough to think everyone would want to be there anyway, but I've heard mentioned in one of our regional talks that ties are still somewhat important for NYC. That said, I've also heard anecdotally of people who weren't even asked "Why NYC?" despite lacking ties, and many who were able to answer that quite easily with an explanation of that they want Corporate/capital markets/M&A/corporate restructure/finance & banking. By all reports, that was more than sufficient.

Are you listening to career services? I've talked to a lot of people IRL and they have told me ties don't matter for NYC, just grades. Not sure what to think now.

[rando]

From my understanding, NY is really a place where ties don't matter so long as you have a sufficient explanation for wanting to be there as one of the above posters mentioned.

[XxSpyKEx]

It's honestly not something worrying about as a 0L right now (assuming you get into a t14). If you start law school next year and if the economy picks up substantially by the following fall, ties aren't going to matter anymore. Employers will be trying to convince you to come to their city. If things stay as shitty as they are now, then bid on NYC... This isn't the type of economy where you try to seek out employment in your dream city. It is the type of economy where you are lucky to find anything at all and you really need to do everything you can to minimize your chances of ending up empty handed (such as bidding solely on cities you have substantial ties to). Keep in mind, like most people, you are probably going to only wind up with 2-3 callbacks, and maybe 1 offer, so you really can't fuck around and waste a few bids on a city you have a small/no chance at because those few bids could have been the one that got you an offer out of. When things turn around you have the option to try and move, but just wait out the economy.

[Anonymous User]

I would think "ties" wouldn't matter so much for NYC/DC. If the point of "ties" is to ensure newly-minted associates from flight to a better job, how does this apply to NYC/DC? These ARE the best jobs. Plus, ITE. Nuff said.

[RVP11]

I would think "ties" wouldn't matter so much for NYC/DC. If the point of "ties" is to ensure newly-minted associates from flight to a better job, how does this apply to NYC/DC? These ARE the best jobs. Plus, ITE. Nuff said.

I thought the reason ties don't matter for NYC/DC is because the firms are counting on having high attrition rates anyway, and they're going to make plenty off you if you stick around 2-3 years.

In smaller markets you might not even be profitable until the third year and some firms - like those who aren't really leveraged at all - are actually looking to groom future partners.

[TrampsLikeU$]

If you are looking for a good 1L job that doesn't require ties but could allow you to establish ties in the area, the USAO is a good option for 1Ls. They don't care whether you are coming back because they don't really hire new grads, so they won't care if you had no ties. Once you're in the city for the summer, you can meet with alumni at firms and make connections that way. I got two USAO offers for this summer in two cities that I had visited once in my life.

Interning for a judge might be another option. I'm sure some judges require ties, but I know not all of them do.

[FlightoftheEarls]

I think we are pretty much in agreement then. If you read my first post - "unless you are T3-6, good luck without them." The point in identifying H & C students as having ties was hyperbole and then saying "may have a grain of truth." Not to show a requirement for T6 students. Either way. This distinction does not matter for 99% of Law students. Ties are important in general.

I go to a T6 and the Career Services person I had spoken to a few times over during my 1L year peppered me with how NYC will be hard to get to for someone in my position that has no ties to NYC ITE.

Now, I don't know that he knows what he's talking about 90 percent of the time, but I just wanted to throw that one out there.

Dres - we're getting much of the same info at Michigan re: NYC, which rather surprised me. Most people on here discuss NYC as the market where everybody is arrogant enough to think everyone would want to be there anyway, but I've heard mentioned in one of our regional talks that ties are still somewhat important for NYC. That said, I've also heard anecdotally of people who weren't even asked "Why NYC?" despite lacking ties, and many who were able to answer that quite easily with an explanation of that they want Corporate/capital markets/M&A/corporate restructure/finance & banking. By all reports, that was more than sufficient.

Are you listening to career services? I've talked to a lot of people IRL and they have told me ties don't matter for NYC, just grades. Not sure what to think now.

I tend not to consider their word anything remotely near gospel, the only reason it caught my attention somewhat is because I believe it was the actual market consultant who said it. That said, career services didn't mention a thing about it when reviewing my bid list and I told them I had no ties to NYC.