86/200 Class of Cornell 2011 have SA Positions: abovethelaw Forum

[rundoxierun]

Yea this is really good new.. 45-50% is what I was thinking for Cornell before this nasty recession came.. schools below Vandy/Texas must be absolutely destroyed.

Cornell was close to 80% before the recession.

This is good in the sense that it isn't as bad as it could be, but it's not really objectively good in any sense.

Yea I know what you mean.. but I just mean good in terms of my risk assessment strategy. I was thinking 20-30% from whats been said around here.

[como]

I don't think Cornell is an excepTTTion here. I would be willing to bet that the bottom half of the T14 is similar or marginally better at best. When will 0Ls wake up and smell the coffee that they'll eventually be brewing at Starbucks after 3L? I should have heeded the writing on the walls.

[doyleoil]

Yea this is really good new.. 45-50% is what I was thinking for Cornell before this nasty recession came.. schools below Vandy/Texas must be absolutely destroyed.

Cornell was close to 80% before the recession.

This is good in the sense that it isn't as bad as it could be, but it's not really objectively good in any sense.

The problem is also that this is as good as the numbers will likely be. It's doubtful that 3L's will find a big firm job if they didn't land an SA. And of the ones who did land an SA, for the numbers to stay this good at graduation, there need to be 0 no-offers. Deferrals are also a problem (particularly when they become indefinite, as many of the past ones have). So, AT BEST, these are Cornell's numbers for c/o 2011. They could be worse by graduation (though probably not catastrophically worse).

All of the above becomes more or less of a problem depending on the quality of firms these people have landed. I'll let you draw your own conclusions on that front.

[Patriot1208]

I don't think Cornell is an excepTTTion here. I would be willing to bet that the bottom half of the T14 is similar or marginally better at best. When will 0Ls wake up and smell the coffee that they'll eventually be brewing at Starbucks after 3L? I should have heeded the writing on the walls.

Well, this tells me that's not true. This tells me 50% in biglaw or comparable jobs. And since most law jobs are not biglaw or comparable, then almost everyone else should find employment no problem as long as they are willing to settle a little. So you add in those who can get smaller firms, ADA, lower government jobs, it seems like things are pretty ok.

[rundoxierun]

I don't think Cornell is an excepTTTion here. I would be willing to bet that the bottom half of the T14 is similar or marginally better at best. When will 0Ls wake up and smell the coffee that they'll eventually be brewing at Starbucks after 3L? I should have heeded the writing on the walls.

Well if we accept that 45% or so got SAs and another 15-25% will get decent gov't/other positions, wanted Public interest or clerks. I would say thats a pretty decent result given this economy.

EDIT: And after last years disaster you have to think the number of no-offers will be down.

[como]

I don't think Cornell is an excepTTTion here. I would be willing to bet that the bottom half of the T14 is similar or marginally better at best. When will 0Ls wake up and smell the coffee that they'll eventually be brewing at Starbucks after 3L? I should have heeded the writing on the walls.

Well, this tells me that's not true. This tells me 50% in biglaw or comparable jobs. And since most law jobs are not biglaw or comparable, then almost everyone else should find employment no problem as long as they are willing to settle a little. So you add in those who can get smaller firms, ADA, lower government jobs, it seems like things are pretty ok.

They're not OK after you have Cornell debt.

[YesPrimeMinister]

The abovethelaw article and raw data are a bit misleading. The 45-50% biglaw placement figure for class of 2011 is not an accurate reflection of permanent hiring yet. We have no idea what offer rates will be like for this summer class. Yes, most firms took a conservative approach to summer hiring this cycle, but NY probably less so than other markets and Cornell feeds mostly into the NY market.

I also think it's fair to say that most no-offers will not remain in the biglaw pool, so the 45-50% figure will almost certainly get a haircut come August/September/January/whenever firms actually make permanent hiring decisions. I have heard a few partners say they are still wary of a double-dip recession. Lawyers are a risk-averse group and that will probably result in lower offer rates for class of 2011 and class of 2012 summers.

[como]

The abovethelaw article and raw data are a bit misleading. The 45-50% biglaw placement figure for class of 2011 is not an accurate reflection of permanent hiring yet. We have no idea what offer rates will be like for this summer class. Yes, most firms took a conservative approach to summer hiring this cycle, but NY probably less so than other markets and Cornell feeds mostly into the NY market.

I also think it's fair to say that most no-offers will not remain in the biglaw pool, so the 45-50% figure will almost certainly get a haircut come August/September/January/whenever firms actually make permanent hiring decisions. I have heard a few partners say they are still wary of a double-dip recession. Lawyers are a risk-averse group and that will probably result in lower offer rates for class of 2011 and class of 2012 summers.

True, given the data in this article, http://abovethelaw.com/2010/04/summer-o ... 5-are-hot/, it looks like the offer rate hovers around 80% for the V50.

That brings the number to about 36% after grad.

[rundoxierun]

The abovethelaw article and raw data are a bit misleading. The 45-50% biglaw placement figure for class of 2011 is not an accurate reflection of permanent hiring yet. We have no idea what offer rates will be like for this summer class. Yes, most firms took a conservative approach to summer hiring this cycle, but NY probably less so than other markets and Cornell feeds mostly into the NY market.

I also think it's fair to say that most no-offers will not remain in the biglaw pool, so the 45-50% figure will almost certainly get a haircut come August/September/January/whenever firms actually make permanent hiring decisions. I have heard a few partners say they are still wary of a double-dip recession. Lawyers are a risk-averse group and that will probably result in lower offer rates for class of 2011 and class of 2012 summers.

Where on Earth are you getting this from?? It is highly unlikely offer rates will be lower than last year. Summer classes have been cut dramatically to avoid that embarrassment again. Some firms are dropping from 30+ SAs last year to less than 10 this year.

[Thomas Jefferson]

They're not OK after you have Cornell debt.

IBR ftw duude

[Grizz]

They're not OK after you have Cornell debt.

IBR 25 yrs. of indentured servitude ftw duude

[Anonymous User]

1) Offer rates are likely to be very high this year across the board. Not having a high offer rate is a terrible business decision for a firm and they know it.

2) People are insane if they think the pool of people who do government, public interest, etc. is going to be distinct from the pool that does big law. Cornell's number will be hit because from the MAXIMUM pool of 40% of the class in big firm jobs, the ~10% of the class that will siphon off to clerkships will likely come out of it, as will many who go on to PI/Govt. We could see 20-25% NLJ 250 placement based on these numbers even if every Cornell summer associate gets an offer.

[rayiner]

The reason the 45% number is being considered is because it gives you a rough idea of grade sensitivity. Ie: solid hiring in the top 1/3 then coin flip in the middle 1/3.

Even with 2007 offer rates, this number will take a haircut. If 10% of the class takes some sort of federal clerkship, the at-graduation placement will be something like 30%.

When you consider that net number was 62% for C/O 2008 you get an idea of where things are: http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2428438260

[Thomas Jefferson]

They're not OK after you have Cornell debt.

IBR 25 yrs. of indentured servitude ftw duude

15% of your income above 150% of the poverty line = indentured servitude????????

[Grizz]

They're not OK after you have Cornell debt.

IBR 25 yrs. of indentured servitude ftw duude

15% of your income above 150% of the poverty line = indentured servitude????????

I don't know what world you're living in, but that's a lot.

[Thomas Jefferson]

I don't know what world you're living in, but that's a lot.

Your world must be more expensive than mine

[Grizz]

I don't know what world you're living in, but that's a lot.

Your world must be more expensive than mine

15% + taxes + car (probably) + rent + food is a shit ton of cash. This is asinine.

[swc65]

Yea this is really good new.. 45-50% is what I was thinking for Cornell before this nasty recession came.. schools below Vandy/Texas must be absolutely destroyed.

Cornell was close to 80% before the recession.

This is good in the sense that it isn't as bad as it could be, but it's not really objectively good in any sense.

Are you saying that Cornell had years where 80% of its class got summer SAs? I have never heard that number before, but if it's true then that's a huge drop.

[Thomas Jefferson]

I don't know what world you're living in, but that's a lot.

Your world must be more expensive than mine

15% + taxes+ car (probably) + rent + food is a shit ton of cash not that much. This is asinine.

If you make so little that you're dependent on IBR, and if you do your taxes right, you should owe very little, if anything. As far as the liability at the end, there is none for PI, and if you save just a little each month as well when you make a payment, you'll have enough to pay the tax liability in 25 yrs. So say 18% + the other stuff.

Other living expenses are more than affordable even on a shitlaw salary. Yeah actual unemployment is going to fuck over some people. But you don't need to live a biglaw lifestyle with a biglaw salary to live a decent life.

[Grizz]

18%? Just to service loans? Okay on a shitlaw salary? You're kidding yourself.

For PI it's okay though probably.

[Thomas Jefferson]

18%? Just to service loans? Okay on a shitlaw salary? You're kidding yourself.

For PI it's okay though probably.

Honest question, how much would you need to live-off per year, not servicing loans? So rent, utilities, food, car/public transportation, etc.

The loan payment only applies to what's above 150% of the poverty. To give an idea, let's say someone makes $40k/yr and has $180k in debt. They're going to be paying $300 a month to service the loan. That still leaves $36,400 to cover everything else for the year. That's more than enough to not starve and have a decent place to live, for me at least, which is why I ask how much you need to cover your living expenses.

[rayiner]

Yea this is really good new.. 45-50% is what I was thinking for Cornell before this nasty recession came.. schools below Vandy/Texas must be absolutely destroyed.

Cornell was close to 80% before the recession.

This is good in the sense that it isn't as bad as it could be, but it's not really objectively good in any sense.

Are you saying that Cornell had years where 80% of its class got summer SAs? I have never heard that number before, but if it's true then that's a huge drop.

Yep. That was the case throughout the T14.

[lonerightly]

Looking at that list it seems that there are people in a lot of different parts of the country, and at pretty good firms. Lot's of people in V10's.

I think anyone who is going to or plans to go to Cornell can do so with a pretty good idea of what type of deal they are getting, at least compared to other schools, which I think is very positive considering the lengths some schools go to deceive their students.

Overall I think this is positive news considering how much speculation goes on around here.

[bigben]

If only there were ways to make money outside of BIGLAW...

Look, if your only reason for going to law school is because you want a BIGLAW job making $160k a year, don't go to law school. Don't do it. Go to law school because you want to be a lawyer -- regardless of biglaw or small law. For the majority of lawyers, law is not lucrative for the first 5 - 7 years. For many biglaw associates, law is lucrative for the first 5 years and then you get laid off or aren't "partnership material" and you're making $45k a year as a newly minted solo.

Also, not much Cornell can do to make law firms hire. Prestige of your degree doesn't generate cash flow. Law is a profession. You provide professional services to clients. If clients aren't willing to pay you for those services, you're unemployed.

You guys might not like this, but many clients are jumping ship from biglaw firms. They don't want to pay a first year associate $400 an hour and a partner $650 an hour and be billed every time one of them so much has a dream about the case. There is NO justification to charge a client $400 an hour for a first year associate. For the first time ever, many biglaw firms are willing to drop their rates in order to retain clients. This creates less of a demand and profit margin on first year associates, who are essentially useless. The outrageous gravy train of biglaw is over -- they're going to drop their rates and cut the fat in order to survive.

The bad news for you is that a law degree, no matter where it's from, more and more is not a guaranteed six figure salary out of law school. You're going to have to earn it and struggle for awhile.

Not enough math in this post.

[nycparalegal]

Maybe I'm not reading Lat's analysis correctly but to me this read that 40% get summer associate positions that doesn't exactly correlate into an offer for employment after law school.

I wonder if that rate will be lower?