$$$ vs. Law Forum

[cpunch]

cpunch,

If you are serious about missing the intellectual challenge but eventual employment isn't a concern, I do have a suggestion for you, though it is unusual. Consider: You want to study law. You run a successful business that requires your personal attention but gives you a substantial income. Okay; sign up with one of the California distance learning law schools and do your learning on-line. If you manage to complete four years of very disciplined and highly structured law study and pass the notorious First Year Law Student's Exam, you will be permitted to take the even more notorious California General Bar Exam and become a licensed attorney. Total tuition and fees will run around $30,000.

I promise you all the intellectual challenge you can stand.

Hmm.. that's definitely something to think about. Would it be possible to take the distance learning courses, and then apply to law school later? I would eventually like to graduate from a law school that affords me at least some measure of opportunity, but the distance learning thing might be something I could do in the meantime. I like the idea of tackling the subject matter while my brain is still young, and then getting my fancy pants JD later on.

No. While you could theoretically do this, Law school culture encourages pushing through in 3 years, 4 at the most (for part time). Starting law school at one point at a school no one respects, then trying to vault yourself later into a respectable school for your JD will be very hard. They will question your commitment to the profession. Not to mention, the older you get the harder it is to get an entry level lawyer position. You should worry more about your age when you get the JD rather than the age at which you absorb the material.

Again, I think you are looking for interesting schooling rather than becoming a lawyer. As such an Academic degree (masters/PHD) is the way to go.

Hmm, thanks for the advice. I'm not just looking for schooling.. I'm looking to obtain schooling which I can apply in constructive/tangible ways for the rest of my life. At the very least, I want to be able to write useful/informative opinion-articles on current events without sounding like an idiot... and hopefully much more than that. So, Law & Econ would both be sufficient for that purpose.. whereas something like Philosophy, not so much. My undergrad major was economics and I'm pretty scared about whether I have what it takes to succeed in such a quantitatively rigorous field. I'm not at all interested in bio, med, that kinda stuff.

What you said about ageism in law-hiring is another big reason why I feel so torn between money and self-actualization. If age wasn't an issue, I'd be fine with working for a few years, retiring, and then pursuing my 'real' career. Instead, I feel like this is the last reasonable juncture at which I can make this huge life decision. Even at 26, I feel old compared to all the people who go to law school fresh out of undergrad.

Anyway, I really appreciate all the advice that everyone has given me in this thread. It started out as just some lame rant, but some of your responses have been really helpful. Thanks guys!

[legalease9]

legalease is correct; you would be missing out on the face-to-face experience if you went the distance learning route. But schools such as Concord do provide at least some interaction via the internet. Not the same thing by any means but is that face-to-face contact really worth the mountain of cash a resident, full time program or even part-time program will cost you, not to mention the lost income while you are there?

I would point out to legalease that I specifically said that the distance option was viable only if legal employment is not a consideration.

No ABA approved law school will accept any transfer credit from a distance law school. However. If a licensed attorney were to apply to a law school's J.D. program, there might be some advance standing granted. I saw this once involving a foreign trained lawyer who immigrated to the United States from a common law country. My law school granted him roughly a year and a half of advanced standing based on his foreign law license. But one example isn't much to go on.

Regarding accreditation: The ABA does not accredit distance law schools. There are two such schools in existence that are accredited by the Distance Education and Training Council (DETC) which in turn is recognized by the U.S. Department of Education. The practical value of this accreditation is that some federal student aid might be available, depending on the type of program. The resulting J.D. however, will qualify for the bar exam in California only.

The cost can be mitigated, and in fact eliminated, by schollys. People get full rides all the time from schools looking to up their LSAT average. This is why its difficult to advise more specifically until OP takes the LSAT/ shares his score.

I did see that you said only if employment wasn't a concern. That's why I stated that if legal employment isn't your goal you shouldn't go to law school period, and that PHD/Masters is the way to go.

The ABA doesn't accredit distance education because you miss out on a fundamental aspect of the law-school experience. Law school is more than school. Its a gathering of professionals. Networking and working together with your fellow lawyers is all part of the experience. As such the ABA doesn't want to admit lawyers lacking that experience. A little elitist? Perhaps. And not very fair to people with life responsibilities. But there is so much you would miss out on.

[cpunch]

Flame. Any owner of such a profitable business would know what his/her options were (hire a manager, wait a few years and reassess, just keep making it rain as a small business owner. Also, did Grandma not have insurance to pay for her surgery?

No one who has experience in small business ownership would seriously suggest hiring a manager to take over the business for 5+ years while I'm on the opposite side of the country. Case in point: I sold a *very* easy to run retail business for a six-figure sum before I left town to pursue undergrad, and the new owner still managed to run it into the ground within a few months. You can't trust anyone in this world.

Furthermore, I wasn't asking the forum what my business options were.. I was asking about general life principles/values such as leisure vs. accomplishment. I've read about non-traditional applicants in their 30's who give up their cushy jobs in order to attend law school. I've read about big-law associates who take pay cuts while transitioning to small-law for quality of life reasons. I've read about law students who have no interest whatsoever in big-law. Not everyone bases their life decisions on money.

As for my grandma, she is a 1st generation immigrant... she can't get health insurance.

In terms of leisure vs. Accomplishment, what is it you hope to accomplish. You're assuming that a law degree will lead you to accomplish more with your life. But that's not true if you don't know what path you want to take/ have a path your degree can't get you (i.e. being a federal judge out of an unaccredited online school). The real question here is... What's your LSAT?

PS. I second the concern for your grandma. I hope she is well.

Haha, my stats are in my profile. My LSAT is 170, it was my first and only attempt.

I wouldn't mind being a state-level judge or even lower than that. Anything sounds better than MMORPG's. I wouldn't bet on being able to become an AUSA right out of law school, but maybe if I did JAG or some other kind of government work, I'd be able to break in somewhere. I don't mind putting in the time.

Alternatively, I would also enjoy working with a regulatory agency.

[legalease9]

cpunch,

If you are serious about missing the intellectual challenge but eventual employment isn't a concern, I do have a suggestion for you, though it is unusual. Consider: You want to study law. You run a successful business that requires your personal attention but gives you a substantial income. Okay; sign up with one of the California distance learning law schools and do your learning on-line. If you manage to complete four years of very disciplined and highly structured law study and pass the notorious First Year Law Student's Exam, you will be permitted to take the even more notorious California General Bar Exam and become a licensed attorney. Total tuition and fees will run around $30,000.

I promise you all the intellectual challenge you can stand.

Hmm.. that's definitely something to think about. Would it be possible to take the distance learning courses, and then apply to law school later? I would eventually like to graduate from a law school that affords me at least some measure of opportunity, but the distance learning thing might be something I could do in the meantime. I like the idea of tackling the subject matter while my brain is still young, and then getting my fancy pants JD later on.

No. While you could theoretically do this, Law school culture encourages pushing through in 3 years, 4 at the most (for part time). Starting law school at one point at a school no one respects, then trying to vault yourself later into a respectable school for your JD will be very hard. They will question your commitment to the profession. Not to mention, the older you get the harder it is to get an entry level lawyer position. You should worry more about your age when you get the JD rather than the age at which you absorb the material.

Again, I think you are looking for interesting schooling rather than becoming a lawyer. As such an Academic degree (masters/PHD) is the way to go.

Hmm, thanks for the advice. I'm not just looking for schooling.. I'm looking to obtain schooling which I can apply in constructive/tangible ways for the rest of my life. At the very least, I want to be able to write useful/informative opinion-articles on current events without sounding like an idiot... and hopefully much more than that. So, Law & Econ would both be sufficient for that purpose.. whereas something like Philosophy, not so much. My undergrad major was economics and I'm pretty scared about whether I have what it takes to succeed in such a quantitatively rigorous field. I'm not at all interested in bio, med, that kinda stuff.

What you said about ageism in law-hiring is another big reason why I feel so torn between money and self-actualization. If age wasn't an issue, I'd be fine with working for a few years, retiring, and then pursuing my 'real' career. Instead, I feel like this is the last reasonable juncture at which I can make this huge life decision. Even at 26, I feel old compared to all the people who go to law school fresh out of undergrad.

Anyway, I really appreciate all the advice that everyone has given me in this thread. It started out as just some lame rant, but some of your responses have been really helpful. Thanks guys!

Sure thing.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying you shouldn't go to law school. I'm just saying you should think about how a JD will help you reach your goals.

Oh, and I am saying that you definitely should NOT go to an unaccredited/online school under any circumstances or at any time.

Edit: My bad, you have a 170. Dude, you will slide into all sorts of great schools. I can almost guarentee you will get a full ride from Illinois for example. You will certainly get a full ride from any of the T2's in California. You will get significant schollys from USC and maybe UCLA (maybe).

Edit again: Your GPA is a little low to be getting good deals at UCLA and USC. But I still see near full rides from all of california's T2's. Go to USNEWS and look up all the california schools avaliable. And apply to all of them, even Stanford. You won't get in, but then again you never know...

--LinkRemoved--

[taxguy]

Cpunch: I really do hear you. I was a practicing accountant and wanted a lot more than doing tax returns. Thus, I became a tax lawyer. However, even with that said,

There is an old saying that has been around for many years: BE CAREFULL WHAT YOU WISH FOR. IT MIGHT COME TRUE

You have an amazingly enviable position: little stress, little liability, lots of money, plenty of free time etc. In my opinion, you are CRAZY to want to give this up, and going into law will require you to give it up. You can become a professor if you go to a top school, get some top notch experience and write a bunch of articles. However, this is also stressful in that
academic jobs are VERY political. Since I have taught in college, I really do know what I am talking about.

If you have this uncontrollable desire to practice law, just lie down and take three aspirin unitl the desire passes.

Actually more to the point, there are a number of law books that you can read that will satisfy your intellectual curiousity. Go to Ali-ABA at : http://www.ali-aba.org/

There are many places that you can learn abou the law.

I would NOT, however, give up the fabulous situation that you have. As a result of being a tax lawyer, I have met many successful business people who have taken their business success for granted and have given up their business with the understanding that they can get another business started. Few were able to make up what they lost. There appears to be a certain amount of serrendipity to business success. Keep your business and even expand it is my strong advice to you. I promise that when you get older, you will thank me.

[Norlan]

If you want to contribute to the society, go be the next Bill Gates. Make as much money as possible, establish a donation foundation and thru that you may contribute to the society as well.

The legal industry isn't the only place where you can contribute to the society.

[cpunch]

Sure thing.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying you shouldn't go to law school. I'm just saying you should think about how a JD will help you reach your goals.

Oh, and I am saying that you definitely should NOT go to an unaccredited/online school under any circumstances or at any time.

Edit: My bad, you have a 170. Dude, you will slide into all sorts of great schools. I can almost guarentee you will get a full ride from Illinois for example. You will certainly get a full ride from any of the T2's in California. You will get significant schollys from USC and maybe UCLA (maybe).

Edit again: Your GPA is a little low to be getting good deals at UCLA and USC. But I still see near full rides from all of california's T2's. Go to USNEWS and look up all the california schools avaliable. And apply to all of them, even Stanford. You won't get in, but then again you never know...

--LinkRemoved--

Okay, I'm definitely not going to waste my application fee on Stanford or Berkeley, lol. I would have been perfectly happy with UVA, and my proximity to California does not matter to me. I'm simply not willing to try to juggle my business with law school.

In my original post, I didn't intend to convey that I was looking for a solution to my problem. Despite all the colorful and creative advice I received, fundamentally my question was more of a philosophical one. I just wanted to know how TLSers felt about the whole $$$ vs. self-actualization deal. I mean, by some standards, I have a great life... but I always hear stories about people who gave up their lucrative careers in order to pursue their passions and ideals and whatnot, and I was hoping to hear from those who faced similar decisions in the past - what choice did you guys make, and are you happy with that choice?

I want to know if I'm really missing out on something great... or if I'm just a whiner who doesn't know how good he's got it. I want to hear people say "I'd take the money and run" or "I'd give it all up to go to law school and fight against animal cruelty!" etc.

[taxguy]

cpunch, see my response just a few posts up.

[Patriot1208]

This is just me, and i'm a lot less experienced than a lot of people on here. But if I hated my job, even if I was making good money, I would do something else. But if I were you, with the amount of money you are making, I would do law school PT while still running the business. It also sounds like your family is somewhat dependant on you financially, and that is something else you have to consider.

[cpunch]

There is an old saying that has been around for many years: BE CAREFULL WHAT YOU WISH FOR. IT MIGHT COME TRUE

You have an amazingly enviable position: little stress, little liability, lots of money, plenty of free time etc. In my opinion, you are CRAZY to want to give this up, and going into law will require you to give it up. You can become a professor if you go to a top school, get some top notch experience and write a bunch of articles. However, this is also stressful in that
academic jobs are VERY political. Since I have taught in college, I really do know what I am talking about.

If you have this uncontrollable desire to practice law, just lie down and take three aspirin unitl the desire passes.

Actually more to the point, there are a number of law books that you can read that will satisfy your intellectual curiousity. Go to Ali-ABA at : http://www.ali-aba.org/

There are many places that you can learn abou the law.

I would NOT, however, give up the fabulous situation that you have. As a result of being a tax lawyer, I have met many successful business people who have taken their business success for granted and have given up their business with the understanding that they can get another business started. Few were able to make up what they lost. There appears to be a certain amount of serrendipity to business success. Keep your business and even expand it is my strong advice to you. I promise that when you get older, you will thank me.

Were you tenured? I can't imagine someone wanting to give that up to become a tax attorney..

Well, I will take your advice to heart. Maybe MMORPG's aren't as bad as being poor.

[taxguy]

No, I was never a tenured professor. I was solely adjunct since I was working for the IRS at the time. Now, it is even tougher to get tenure than years ago.
Many schools have cut down on tenured faculty or even eliminated it altogether. Also, many tenured faculty were allowed to have part-time practices or do some consulting
in the past. I don't know what the current rules are these days.

Moreover, being a law professor is a lot more than being scholarly. You need to spend a lot of time teaching kids and being available to them with office hours. Read over the posts here on TLS. I have personally never seen so many rude, uncaring folks in any other forum. Do you really want to deal with some people like this, let alone want to hire them?

As for being a judge, this is a very tough position to get. You need to have a LOT of legal experience and become very politically connnected. In fact, in my states judges run for office just like any other politician.

By the way, what Mmorpg do you play? My son played EQ a lot.

[cpunch]

No, I was never a tenured professor. I was solely adjunct since I was working for the IRS at the time. Now, it is even tougher to get tenure than years ago.
Many schools have cut down on tenured faculty or even eliminated it altogether. Also, many tenured faculty were allowed to have part-time practices or do some consulting
in the past. I don't know what the current rules are these days.

Moreover, being a law professor is a lot more than being scholarly. You need to spend a lot of time teaching kids and being available to them with office hours. Read over the posts here on TLS. I have personally never seen so many rude, uncaring folks in any other forum. Do you really want to deal with some people like this, let alone want to hire them?

As for being a judge, this is a very tough position to get. You need to have a LOT of legal experience and become very politically connnected. In fact, in my states judges run for office just like any other politician.

By the way, what Mmorpg do you play? My son played EQ a lot.

I actually don't play any MMORPG's. I've seen my friends play World of Warcraft, but it never appealed to me. I PM'd you.

[sanpiero]

OP - still astounded that you are actually considering giving up a 30 hr/wk job that pays $160k+ for law skool. Are you nuts? If you want to "make a difference," you can easily do so through philanthropy. By the looks of it, you will probably be able to found an NPO by yourself at some time during your career. Once you really get sick of running your business, go part time and spend the rest of your time chairing your NPO.

If you want intellectual fulfillment, read and write. Surely there's some area you'd enjoy researching. If you have the time and ambition, eventually work on getting published.

There's gotta be some other way to get the fulfillment you're looking for without going to law school. If i were you, I wouldn't go unless it was my lifelong dream and i didn't feel i could live a happy and fulfilling life w/o it.

[romothesavior]

OP - still astounded that you are still talking about MMPORGs. are actually considering giving up a 30 hr/wk job that pays $160k+ for law skool. Are you nuts? If you want to "make a difference," you can easily do so through philanthropy. By the looks of it, you will probably be able to found an NPO by yourself at some time during your career. Once you really get sick of running your business, go part time and spend the rest of your time chairing your NPO.

If you want intellectual fulfillment, read and write. Surely there's some area you'd enjoy researching. If you have the time and ambition, eventually work on getting published.

There's gotta be some other way to get the fulfillment you're looking for without going to law school. If i were you, I wouldn't go unless it was my lifelong dream and i didn't feel i could live a happy and fulfilling life w/o it.

FTFY

[BeautifulSW]

legalease says that the costs of attending a traditional, resident ABA approved school can be mitigated or eliminated through scholarships. This is certainly true for full time students but no scholarship is likely to replace three years of lost business income. I do not know whether full rides are awarded to part-time evening division students. If they are, and the offering school is within commuting distance from cpunch's domicile, then I'd say, "Go for it!"

But I sure wouldn't give up a prosperous business for the opportunity to earn a J.D. from a T2, T3 or T4 ABA approved full-time program even with a full scholarship. It just isn't worth the hundreds of thousands of dollars in lost income. An evening program in a California Bar accredited school would make better financial sense with a total cost less than $50,000. And a lack of student loans would give cpunch the flexibility to take state and local jobs in California that pay too poorly for the more heavily indebted among us.

The caveat, though, is that no non-ABA degree will be of any use outside the Golden State and may not be of much use outside the immediate neighborhood of the law school itself. No such programs have any sort of prestige. In that department, you (sometimes) get what you pay for.

Good luck to you, cpunch, whatever you decide!

[sanpiero]

OP - still astounded that you are still talking about MMPORGs. are actually considering giving up a 30 hr/wk job that pays $160k+ for law skool. Are you nuts? If you want to "make a difference," you can easily do so through philanthropy. By the looks of it, you will probably be able to found an NPO by yourself at some time during your career. Once you really get sick of running your business, go part time and spend the rest of your time chairing your NPO.

If you want intellectual fulfillment, read and write. Surely there's some area you'd enjoy researching. If you have the time and ambition, eventually work on getting published.

There's gotta be some other way to get the fulfillment you're looking for without going to law school. If i were you, I wouldn't go unless it was my lifelong dream and i didn't feel i could live a happy and fulfilling life w/o it.

FTFY

lol. you're right, i'm astounded by that too.