BigLaw diversity hiring Forum

[hiromoto45]

I know an African-American woman at my lower T2 who has a paid 1L summer gig at a V50. I also know that she got a D on at least one of her major legal writing assignments and a C- in Torts. I'm top 15% (white male) and didn't even get an interview. I would say at least one firm is giving some big points for URMs.

Her essays were likely far superior to yours in the aggregate.

Unlikely. She asked me to read over her essay and give feedback after the school outted me as the high A in 1st semester legal writing. With D on that brief, the highest grade she could have gotten in legal writing was C-. She told me about the C- in Torts to scold me for complaining about the prof's disregard for the curve when he didn't give out a single A or A-. She's 22, so I'm guessing no exceptional WE. She's not exceptionally hot, so that's out as a factor.

Nice planted seed for an AA debate. I'm just a bit critical that this story is true.

[Quine]

I'm pretty sure Oblomov was being sarcastic. I can never tell with Kohinoor, though.

[romothesavior]

Okay, come on. I'm a supporter of affirmative action, but to say she earned this on merit is just ridiculous. There is no way someone who gets poor grades with no WE from a T2 is even getting a second look if they aren't URM.

If the firm really wanted a black woman, fine... I have no problem with this particular girl getting hired. Again, I'm not arguing against AA and I think it is a good idea in principle. This has nothing to do with the merits of AA. But for kohinoor and oblimov to try to grasp for some merit-based reason she was hired is just disingenuous; she was hired because she is black.

PS. To say she is a better interviewer than Cole is also a moot point, since Cole didn't even get an interview. Even if she is a great interviewer, she never even would have gotten that interview without her race.

Qualifying a statement with "I'm a supporter of affirmative action" is the "My best friend is black" of AA discussions. Also, we need an operational definition of merit.

The reason people need to qualify such statements is because the rabid AA-supporters on TLS always devour anyone who tries to disagree with them, no matter how good their argument is. I wish I didn't have to preface my arguments with such a statement, but I did so out of fear of being branded a small-minded, anti-AA bigot. The fact that I even had to do so speaks to the inability our country to engage in rational discourse.

And I agree, we do need a definition of merit. I think most people define merit (with regards to law school admissions and hiring) based on purely race-neutral resume lines like grades, law review, etc., so that is the definition I go with.

Regardless of how you define merit, oblomov's comment saying it had nothing to do with the color of her skin is just ridiculous. I don't know why admitting it does have something to do with her race is somehow not PC. Its just a simple statement of the facts.

[romothesavior]

I'm pretty sure Oblomov was being sarcastic. I can never tell with Kohinoor, though.

+1, Oblomov usually has quite a sarcastic streak in him, so it may well have been sarcasm.

[Quine]

I'm pretty sure Oblomov was being sarcastic. I can never tell with Kohinoor, though.

+1, Oblomov usually has quite a sarcastic streak in him, so it may well have been sarcasm.

I'm almost sure it was. What's less clear is Kohinoor "tcr"-ing his comment; either good sarcasm, or wildly idiotic.

[D Brooks]

Ran here.

[Kohinoor]

Its just a simple statement of the facts.

To be fair, if by 'the facts' you mean blind conjecture, then certainly.

[romothesavior]

Its just a simple statement of the facts.

To be fair, if by 'the facts' you mean blind conjecture, then certainly.

You're telling me that a white student with poor grades at a T2 is going to get looks from a V50?

I don't really want to argue with you about this. AA debates are about the dumbest thing on TLS.

[phoenix323]

This whole argument is rather pointless because we have absolutely no way to verify that this situation is accurate. Just because Cole SAYS he knows this student's grades doesn't mean anything (except for that it makes him sound like a stalker). And, we don't know anything else about the student's background, talents, experiences. There are too many variables so say that she got some massive URM boost. Maybe if Cole spent more time working on his own resume, interview skills, etc. and less time obsessing about this student's grades, WE, and qualifications he'd have a job too.

Let's get back to the OP's question and TRY to keep this from becoming an AA cesspool of death.

[Quine]

This whole argument is rather pointless because we have absolutely no way to verify that this situation is accurate. Just because Cole SAYS he knows this student's grades doesn't mean anything (except for that it makes him sound like a stalker). And, we don't know anything else about the student's background, talents, experiences. There are too many variables so say that she got some massive URM boost. Maybe if Cole spent more time working on his own resume, interview skills, etc. and less time obsessing about this student's grades, WE, and qualifications he'd have a job too.

Let's get back to the OP's question and TRY to keep this from becoming an AA cesspool of death.

You never just glean information about other people? I don't know this Cole guy, but this trite bullshit about obsessing about other students' grades is ridiculous. Does any one here honestly think his gaining this limited knowledge of another student actually came at the expense of his interview skills? If we're to take him at his word, it doesn't seem to be affecting his GPA.

I'm guessing you don't really need these straw-men to bolster what is an evidently robust self-righteousness.

[phoenix323]

This whole argument is rather pointless because we have absolutely no way to verify that this situation is accurate. Just because Cole SAYS he knows this student's grades doesn't mean anything (except for that it makes him sound like a stalker). And, we don't know anything else about the student's background, talents, experiences. There are too many variables so say that she got some massive URM boost. Maybe if Cole spent more time working on his own resume, interview skills, etc. and less time obsessing about this student's grades, WE, and qualifications he'd have a job too.

Let's get back to the OP's question and TRY to keep this from becoming an AA cesspool of death.

You never just glean information about other people? I don't know this Cole guy, but this trite bullshit about obsessing about other students' grades is ridiculous. Does any one here honestly think his gaining this limited knowledge of another student actually came at the expense of his interview skills? If we're to take him at his word, it doesn't seem to be affecting his GPA.

I'm guessing you don't really need these straw-men to bolster what is an evidently robust self-righteousness.

Cute.

[Captain Jack]

Uh oh! Sounds like a TLS AA "debate"...

[trialjunky]

Sorry to post anon but i'd rather not reveal myself to peers or potential employers


Question: being from miami, I identify as Cuban. Does Cuban American count as "diverse" and/or desirably diverse for bigfirms?

Are you white? As a white hispanic, its my opinion that you have to be sufficiently brown to not look like an asshole showing up at a "diversity" event. If you pass the pigment test, you're diverse.

So wrong...but hilarious, nonetheless.

[legalized]

What's really sad as I read this is the black girl talked to this guy to get help with what she knows is a weak area,and outed her other bad grade in an attempt to help him feel better about a class where no one got an A, and he's using it to badtalk any professional opportunities that come her way.

If only she knew what you REALLY thought of her all that time you were being all friendly and "helpful" with her work...

In any case, for all you know her daddy works there or she had some connection to that firm before law school. Or developed one. There are quite a few stories of people who were relatively slacking off in LS who got jobs through connections. And maybe you are right and they just saw "black" and selected her...is the majority of that Vault top firm black? Not even close. So her one space, deserved or undeserved, doesn't change the reality of your prospects if you are white. If they hire 50 people and 1 is black, that is hardly cause for you to be eyeing her opportunity with such heat. Because your personality is hard to hide and they could just as well have chosen between you and another white student for that spot and STILL given it to the other white student...and what will the complaint be then?

[Cole S. Law]

What's really sad as I read this is the black girl talked to this guy to get help with what she knows is a weak area,and outed her other bad grade in an attempt to help him feel better about a class where no one got an A, and he's using it to badtalk any professional opportunities that come her way.

If only she knew what you REALLY thought of her all that time you were being all friendly and "helpful" with her work...

In any case, for all you know her daddy works there or she had some connection to that firm before law school. Or developed one. There are quite a few stories of people who were relatively slacking off in LS who got jobs through connections. And maybe you are right and they just saw "black" and selected her...is the majority of that Vault top firm black? Not even close. So her one space, deserved or undeserved, doesn't change the reality of your prospects if you are white. If they hire 50 people and 1 is black, that is hardly cause for you to be eyeing her opportunity with such heat. Because your personality is hard to hide and they could just as well have chosen between you and another white student for that spot and STILL given it to the other white student...and what will the complaint be then?

The one who's personality is revealed here is yours. You have read a dozen things into something I said based on your own narrow preconceived notions. The OP asked if Biglaw makes an effort to encourage diversity. I offered strong evidence that at least one firm does. I did not bad mouth her opportunity in any way. She's a friend of mine and I'm happy for her. Based on the info I have about her grades, her school, and the current state of legal hiring the odds against her getting a a paid, 1L, V50 job are staggering. I know of no other 1L at my school who even got an interview with a V250. Not even the girl who swept all 5 high A's in her section. A logical and probable explanation is an effort on the part of the firm to diversify its workforce. You have proven yourself to be a reactionary incapable of rational thought. Please respond with additional nonsequiturs and unfounded accusations.

[hiromoto45]

Its really hard to believe that a V50 would have to dig that deep for diversity.

[Aberzombie1892]

Its really hard to believe that a V50 would have to dig that deep for diversity.

We are missing something.

She probably has notable relatives and ties to the area.

[presh]

Also how do minority candidates signal their status in cases like this? Cuban americans, like me, tend to blend in with other caucasians

The advice to go talk to your Career Services is probably best. While it may not seem fair (depending on what side of it you are coming from), most law firms not only want to be diverse, they want to appear diverse. That means they probably will be less excited about a hire that "looks white" and doesn't add visible diversity.

That doesn't mean you won't get a diversity boost at some firms. Again, check with Career Services. It's a cynical world.

[legalized]

Its really hard to believe that a V50 would have to dig that deep for diversity.

We are missing something.

She probably has notable relatives and ties to the area.

Exactly. And the irony is he's IN law school and doesn't see the obvious unlikelihood that they skipped past black females, every last available one, at higher ranked schools in their insane rush to get to her. lol. And in this economy I seriously doubt law firms are going to shoot themselves in the foot with unlikely hires just to say "ooh look how diverse we are."

To the guy: I read nothing into your response that you did not put there. Stating she obviously only got her job due to race is never a positive, I don't know how you plan to spin that accusation into good news.

I don't know the girl so there is no reason for me to put words in your mouth in defense of her. Also, I am sorry your interpretation of firms diversifying is them hiring just based on race. They use to NOT HIRE people JUST BASED ON RACE and you didn't seem so up in arms about that though. But whatever, diversity is more than just hiring more black people, and apparently I am not the only one in this thread that is skeptical that a firm in the top 100, much less, went all the way to your school to find a black female to hire. There are enough of them higher up the food chain you know. It's black males that are rare as far as blacks go in law.

Accept that the reason, while yours COULD be true, is more likely the normal way a potential slacker gets a plum assignment/job/promotion: they know people. Who know people. lol.

Either way, I wish you luck with your job search and that other people's successes don't make you get so down it hurts your own, I feel your pain on watching possibly less qualified people move ahead while you stand still, but blaming it on their race makes it seem like there is NOTHING you can do to get yourself a job and that is a quick way into apathy and self-defeating attitudes, so as others (not so nicely) said, try to focus on your job search and not hers. Throwing "they only hired her cause she's black" at a top 50 firm's decision sounds spiteful and immature.

[legalized]

Also how do minority candidates signal their status in cases like this? Cuban americans, like me, tend to blend in with other caucasians

The advice to go talk to your Career Services is probably best. While it may not seem fair (depending on what side of it you are coming from), most law firms not only want to be diverse, they want to appear diverse. That means they probably will be less excited about a hire that "looks white" and doesn't add visible diversity.

That doesn't mean you won't get a diversity boost at some firms. Again, check with Career Services. It's a cynical world.

I believe that person you responding to said they are in the south florida area. I would bet cubans and cuban americans are OVER-represented in that area compared to their overall population in the U.S.

The diversity efforts might be more geared towards demographics that are common in south florida yet not common at that firm...could be wrong of course.

[ToTransferOrNot]

Attempting to claim that AA-based hiring doesn't occur is completely asinine. See, for example, the Wisconsin Diversity Clerkship Program, which leads to something like 13 1L SA gigs for students at UW-Wisconsin and a similar number for Marquette students, some of them biglaw. The program continued this year, notwithstanding the fact that the firms partcipating often didn't hire anyone else.

[Cole S. Law]

Its really hard to believe that a V50 would have to dig that deep for diversity.

We are missing something.

She probably has notable relatives and ties to the area.

Exactly. And the irony is he's IN law school and doesn't see the obvious unlikelihood that they skipped past black females, every last available one, at higher ranked schools in their insane rush to get to her. lol. And in this economy I seriously doubt law firms are going to shoot themselves in the foot with unlikely hires just to say "ooh look how diverse we are."

To the guy: I read nothing into your response that you did not put there. Stating she obviously only got her job due to race is never a positive, I don't know how you plan to spin that accusation into good news.

I don't know the girl so there is no reason for me to put words in your mouth in defense of her. Also, I am sorry your interpretation of firms diversifying is them hiring just based on race. They use to NOT HIRE people JUST BASED ON RACE and you didn't seem so up in arms about that though. But whatever, diversity is more than just hiring more black people, and apparently I am not the only one in this thread that is skeptical that a firm in the top 100, much less, went all the way to your school to find a black female to hire. There are enough of them higher up the food chain you know. It's black males that are rare as far as blacks go in law.

Accept that the reason, while yours COULD be true, is more likely the normal way a potential slacker gets a plum assignment/job/promotion: they know people. Who know people. lol.

Either way, I wish you luck with your job search and that other people's successes don't make you get so down it hurts your own, I feel your pain on watching possibly less qualified people move ahead while you stand still, but blaming it on their race makes it seem like there is NOTHING you can do to get yourself a job and that is a quick way into apathy and self-defeating attitudes, so as others (not so nicely) said, try to focus on your job search and not hers. Throwing "they only hired her cause she's black" at a top 50 firm's decision sounds spiteful and immature.

Thank you for the largely indecipherable and flawed response. After class, I asked the individual in question how she managed to get an interview. She participated in an interview program exclusive to members of our African American Law society. It was conducted before grades were released. As far as "coming all the way to my school", the firm is located 2 blocks from our campus in a secondary market. There isn't a saturation of highly ranked candidates beating on the doors of firms here. Of course, even the truth will not sway you. A sworn affidavit from the hiring authority wouldn't be enough. Through your warped lens: You are correct. I am a whiny racist. Even though I got the exact position I targeted for this summer, I am hurt by someone else's success.

You may want to develop the ability to dispassionately and logically read the facts before entering the practice of law. It will come in handy.

[presh]

Also how do minority candidates signal their status in cases like this? Cuban americans, like me, tend to blend in with other caucasians

The advice to go talk to your Career Services is probably best. While it may not seem fair (depending on what side of it you are coming from), most law firms not only want to be diverse, they want to appear diverse. That means they probably will be less excited about a hire that "looks white" and doesn't add visible diversity.

That doesn't mean you won't get a diversity boost at some firms. Again, check with Career Services. It's a cynical world.

I believe that person you responding to said they are in the south florida area. I would bet cubans and cuban americans are OVER-represented in that area compared to their overall population in the U.S.

The diversity efforts might be more geared towards demographics that are common in south florida yet not common at that firm...could be wrong of course.

No, I realize that. That's why I think that going to CS is the best thing to do (as another poster recommended). I agree that it probably won't help where they are (I don't know enough about the FL market to be sure one way or the other), but if they are willing to look outside the area, it might. But again, I think diversity helps the most when a firm can put a picture of you on their diversity initiative page and anyone looking at the picture can see how you add diversity without a clarifying statement.

[hiromoto45]

Thank you for the largely indecipherable and flawed response. After class, I asked the individual in question how she managed to get an interview. She participated in an interview program exclusive to members of our African American Law society. It was conducted before grades were released. As far as "coming all the way to my school", the firm is located 2 blocks from our campus in a secondary market. There isn't a saturation of highly ranked candidates beating on the doors of firms here. Of course, even the truth will not sway you. A sworn affidavit from the hiring authority wouldn't be enough. Through your warped lens: You are correct. I am a whiny racist. Even though I got the exact position I targeted for this summer, I am hurt by someone else's success.

You may want to develop the ability to dispassionately and logically read the facts before entering the practice of law. It will come in handy.

So what was the point of bringing up her grades if her grades didn't matter for her to get hired?

[Cole S. Law]

Thank you for the largely indecipherable and flawed response. After class, I asked the individual in question how she managed to get an interview. She participated in an interview program exclusive to members of our African American Law society. It was conducted before grades were released. As far as "coming all the way to my school", the firm is located 2 blocks from our campus in a secondary market. There isn't a saturation of highly ranked candidates beating on the doors of firms here. Of course, even the truth will not sway you. A sworn affidavit from the hiring authority wouldn't be enough. Through your warped lens: You are correct. I am a whiny racist. Even though I got the exact position I targeted for this summer, I am hurt by someone else's success.

You may want to develop the ability to dispassionately and logically read the facts before entering the practice of law. It will come in handy.

So what was the point of bringing up her grades if her grades didn't matter for her to get hired?

Try to follow along. 1. I didn't know that the interviews were granted and conducted prior to grade release until yesterday, well after all previous posts on the topic. 2. The OP's question asked about diversity hiring at large law firms. 3. Hiring a 1L for a prestigious, paying position without PROOF of outstanding academic performance in this economy is unusual. 4. My friend's performance was not outstanding and our school is not Yale. 5. I indicated that one POSSIBLE and PROBABLE explanation was a diversity initiative at the firm. Any other questions?