"Where you got your degree doesn't matter after 1st job..." Forum

[A'nold]

Haha, at least this thread is making me feel better about how undecided we are as to what to do! Are you happy w/ your decision to stay? I just want to let you know that I REALLY appreciate you taking the time to add to this thread.

I am happy with my decision to stay. I wanted to clerk since before going to school, and that's what I'll be doing later this year. It's with a state appellate judge, and when I interviewed, her clerk at the time had gone to a T17. That probably doesn't mean anything, but I have this thought in the back of my head that says I probably got the same job I could have gotten if I had transferred to a T17. Plus, I am happy to not have the extra debt.

Thanks for sharing. I'm sure there are others in similar situations that are really taking what you guys are saying to heart. Congrats on the clerkship!

[mrm2083]

I was between a T14 and my local T2. I spoke to a T14 graduate (in their 40s high position at a large firm) and they told me that the benefit they received in the long run was even better than the immediate first job benefit. This person is a corporate attorney and told me that the clients she has been able to bring into the firm because of the alumni network have been some of the greatest assets (CEOs of large corporations, etc). Basically I was told that the connections will benefit you in the long run the greatest.

[A'nold]

I was between a T14 and my local T2. I spoke to a T14 graduate (in their 40s high position at a large firm) and they told me that the benefit they received in the long run was even better than the immediate first job benefit. This person is a corporate attorney and told me that the clients she has been able to bring into the firm because of the alumni network have been some of the greatest assets (CEOs of large corporations, etc). Basically I was told that the connections will benefit you in the long run the greatest.

Interesting. Thanks for the input.

[sanpiero]

I was between a T14 and my local T2. I spoke to a T14 graduate (in their 40s high position at a large firm) and they told me that the benefit they received in the long run was even better than the immediate first job benefit. This person is a corporate attorney and told me that the clients she has been able to bring into the firm because of the alumni network have been some of the greatest assets (CEOs of large corporations, etc). Basically I was told that the connections will benefit you in the long run the greatest.

So, a different analysis is probably called for if OP wants to do corporate transactional or litigation work.

[OperaSoprano]

The reality is most law school graduates never find a first paying legal job and end up leaving the law. If you don't have the credential to find a first job, you'll never find a second. And, what gets you that first job? Top grades or top LS.. that's it.

/Thread

The first response basically restated your dilemma of top grades or top LS. Incidentally, the "most law school graduates don't find a first paying legal job" comment is hyperbole. Many do not, especially at lower ranked schools, but extant statistics do not back up a claim for "most." (If temporary positions are not included, it might be closer.)

What statistics are you talking about, OS? I think things aren't as rosy as you probably imagine.

While Danneskjöld may be wrong, there's a lot of truth in what he says. Over 45,000 JDs are granted every year (and this number is growing), while there are probably less than 30,000 jobs for new lawyers every year (and this number is probably shrinking): http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jan/08 ... -2010jan08.

The situation is even worse if you consider that attrition at law schools is in the range of 6,500 per year, and there are over 50,000 1Ls every year.

Yes, I've seen that article and those statistics. Around 15,000 of every 45,000 graduates being unable to land legal jobs is certainly a frighteningly large percentage, and ought to make anyone think twice, but it would not seem to fall within the definition of "most." The true number of jobs would have to be very far under 30k for "most law school graduates don't find a first paying legal job" to be an accurate statement.

I am 100% for the dissemination of facts and figures, even estimates, as given here, but accuracy matters. "A worryingly large proportion" would have been the accurate statement.

FTR I am very much in agreement that schools should be stopped from admitting more students than they plan to allow to graduate. Forced attrition does nothing but line the pockets of lower tier schools that do this, at the expense of students who are out a year's tuition. If schools don't want to take the bar passage hit, they should decline to admit these students, sparing them the debt.

[bwv812]

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[vanwinkle]

I thought you were on record

Is this a court proceeding? Are we under oath?

[T14_Scholly]

OP: Why say T17 when you could just say Vanderbilt?

[vanwinkle]

OP: Why say T17 when you could just say Vanderbilt?

I'm just gonna venture a guess, here, but... because he's aiming for Vandy or higher and isn't sure what schools will accept his transfer app yet?

[A'nold]

OP: Why say T17 when you could just say Vanderbilt?

I'm saying t17 and up.....I thought that was obvious. Everyone else seems to have understood.

As for being "on the record" I've always said that my opinions mainly deal with non-t14 schools and especially lower ranked schools. I highly doubt that I would be in the bottom 1/4 of any class but once you get to a certain level most people might get the "thinking like a lawyer thing" ESPECIALLy by 2L year (although I do admit I doubt that). Plus, my comment was very flippant and "you never know" esque, not the 50/50 proposition that most seem to think law school represents. If I was to transfer to a t14 and finish in the bottom 1/4, I would be an anomally, based on the evidence.

[A'nold]

OP: Why say T17 when you could just say Vanderbilt?

I'm just gonna venture a guess, here, but... because he's aiming for Vandy or higher and isn't sure what schools will accept his transfer app yet?

Lol.

[T14_Scholly]

Okay well arbitrary tiers are kind of retarded I think. If I was aiming for Fordham or higher I wouldn't say T34.

[A'nold]

Okay well arbitrary tiers are kind of retarded I think. If I was aiming for Fordham or higher I wouldn't say T34.

*loudspeaker* "remove shovel from hands and discontinue digging."

Top 17 is not arbitrary. It always stops with either Vandy, Texas, or UCLA and has been that way as long as I can remember. USC is kind of a little island in between WUSTL and one of the t17 and the rest are definitely is separate tiers.

[T14_Scholly]

Anyone who is douchey enough to differentiate between the T3, T6, T12, T14, T17, and T19 is just trying to milk as much prestige out of his/her particular situation as possible.

[bwv812]

.

[vanwinkle]

Anyone who is douchey enough to differentiate between the T3, T6, T12, T14, T17, and T19 is just trying to milk as much prestige out of his/her particular situation as possible.

Anyone who is douchey enough to criticize someone for using an appropriate tier to describe their situation is just trying to be a douche for the sake of being a douche.

[A'nold]

Anyone who is douchey enough to differentiate between the T3, T6, T12, T14, T17, and T19 is just trying to milk as much prestige out of his/her particular situation as possible.

Vanwinkle summed your post up perfectly. Bear with me, I know this is a hard concept for you to understand and all, but I'm NOT calling MY school a "t17" for douchey prestige, I'm saying that I will be APPLYING to t17 schools b/c my target minimum is Vandy. I'm not calling Vandy a "t17" school, I will be applying to a lot of the top 17 schools. Why the hell would I say t20 if I'm not going to be applying to WUSTL or USC?

[XxSpyKEx]

I didn't read all the responses above mine.

Anyway, a few years out it doesn't matter where you got your degree (around 3-5 years out), and your actual work experience will matter. This is really true for just about any college degree anywhere for just about any job. The reason people go to top schools is because of their ability to attain that first job because what you do for that first job affects you future career outlook. E.g. if you attend Yale, your odds of getting things like a SCOTUS clerkship and a v10 firm job are a shitton better than if you attend a t3. That's the reason to attend a better school on its own (i.e. your ability to get that first job that's essentially a stepping stone to the rest of your career). However, I think where you went to law school goes a little further then that because of how prestige orientated the entire profession is and how important your alumni base is (unlike in many other professions, e.g., businesses don't care as much about how many people from your school they have working for them and there are a lot of successful executives that didn't attend the best of schools but had really good work accomplishments). In the legal profession, the entire biglaw model (i.e. the cravath model) rests on the prestige of its attorney's educations, and a spread out alumni base will make moving across the country a lot easier down the road.

Personally, I think you're drawing the line a bit to low for the addition debt. I would be t12 or bust if I were you, but that's just my opinion.

[A'nold]

I didn't read all the responses above mine.

Anyway, a few years out it doesn't matter where you got your degree (around 3-5 years out), and your actual work experience will matter. This is really true for just about any college degree anywhere for just about any job. The reason people go to top schools is because of their ability to attain that first job because what you do for that first job affects you future career outlook. E.g. if you attend Yale, your odds of getting things like a SCOTUS clerkship and a v10 firm job are a shitton better than if you attend a t3. That's the reason to attend a better school on its own (i.e. your ability to get that first job that's essentially a stepping stone to the rest of your career). However, I think where you went to law school goes a little further then that because of how prestige orientated the entire profession is and how important your alumni base is (unlike in many other professions, e.g., businesses don't care as much about how many people from your school they have working for them and there are a lot of successful executives that didn't attend the best of schools but had really good work accomplishments). In the legal profession, the entire biglaw model (i.e. the cravath model) rests on the prestige of its attorney's educations, and a spread out alumni base will make moving across the country a lot easier down the road.

Personally, I think you're drawing the line a bit to low for the addition debt. I would be t12 or bust if I were you, but that's just my opinion.

Thanks. You'd really draw the line that low though? I mean, you wouldn't take on an additional 80k to attend Vandy or GULC rather than graduate top 5% from like Mercer or Southern Illinois University?

[XxSpyKEx]

I didn't read all the responses above mine.

Anyway, a few years out it doesn't matter where you got your degree (around 3-5 years out), and your actual work experience will matter. This is really true for just about any college degree anywhere for just about any job. The reason people go to top schools is because of their ability to attain that first job because what you do for that first job affects you future career outlook. E.g. if you attend Yale, your odds of getting things like a SCOTUS clerkship and a v10 firm job are a shitton better than if you attend a t3. That's the reason to attend a better school on its own (i.e. your ability to get that first job that's essentially a stepping stone to the rest of your career). However, I think where you went to law school goes a little further then that because of how prestige orientated the entire profession is and how important your alumni base is (unlike in many other professions, e.g., businesses don't care as much about how many people from your school they have working for them and there are a lot of successful executives that didn't attend the best of schools but had really good work accomplishments). In the legal profession, the entire biglaw model (i.e. the cravath model) rests on the prestige of its attorney's educations, and a spread out alumni base will make moving across the country a lot easier down the road.

Personally, I think you're drawing the line a bit to low for the addition debt. I would be t12 or bust if I were you, but that's just my opinion.

Thanks. You'd really draw the line that low though? I mean, you wouldn't take on an additional 80k to attend Vandy or GULC rather than graduate top 5% from like Mercer or Southern Illinois University?

It all depends. What does your total debt look like right now and how regionally strong is your current school?

For me, my old school was very regionally strong, and I had a full-ride. Given everything I heard about the economy last year and the market I was targeting this year there was pretty much no way I was going to transfer to GULC or worse.

So I think it’s one thing if you attend SIU and are already planning on incurring $80K in debt to transfer to GULC. It’s another if you are at a school that is really strong in your region and are on a significant scholarship or full-ride (which is the impression I got from your original post based on how you think you could get Holland and Hart and a federal clerkship leaving at the top of your class – neither of which would be available to a student at SIU).

[A'nold]

I didn't read all the responses above mine.

Anyway, a few years out it doesn't matter where you got your degree (around 3-5 years out), and your actual work experience will matter. This is really true for just about any college degree anywhere for just about any job. The reason people go to top schools is because of their ability to attain that first job because what you do for that first job affects you future career outlook. E.g. if you attend Yale, your odds of getting things like a SCOTUS clerkship and a v10 firm job are a shitton better than if you attend a t3. That's the reason to attend a better school on its own (i.e. your ability to get that first job that's essentially a stepping stone to the rest of your career). However, I think where you went to law school goes a little further then that because of how prestige orientated the entire profession is and how important your alumni base is (unlike in many other professions, e.g., businesses don't care as much about how many people from your school they have working for them and there are a lot of successful executives that didn't attend the best of schools but had really good work accomplishments). In the legal profession, the entire biglaw model (i.e. the cravath model) rests on the prestige of its attorney's educations, and a spread out alumni base will make moving across the country a lot easier down the road.

Personally, I think you're drawing the line a bit to low for the addition debt. I would be t12 or bust if I were you, but that's just my opinion.

Thanks. You'd really draw the line that low though? I mean, you wouldn't take on an additional 80k to attend Vandy or GULC rather than graduate top 5% from like Mercer or Southern Illinois University?

It all depends. What does your total debt look like right now and how regionally strong is your current school?

For me, my old school was very regionally strong, and I had a full-ride. Given everything I heard about the economy last year and the market I was targeting this year there was pretty much no way I was going to transfer to GULC or worse.

So I think it’s one thing if you attend SIU and are already planning on incurring $80K in debt to transfer to GULC. It’s another if you are at a school that is really strong in your region and are on a significant scholarship or full-ride (which is the impression I got from your original post based on how you think you could get Holland and Hart and a federal clerkship leaving at the top of your class – neither of which would be available to a student at SIU).

My school is horrific in some aspects, but as it is the only school in the state it does o.k. for the very tippy-top of the class, of which I am a member as of right now. I still have quite a bit of debt (had to put myself through UG) but am paying like 10k a year in tuition b/c of my scholly.

[jack duluoz]

0L here, but here are my thoughts:

I think it really depends on your career aspirations. If your goal is to work for the most prestigious firm possible or clerk for a federal judge etc., then you should probably transfer.

If you’re just concerned with making a comfortable living as an attorney in the area you’re attending school, then I’d say stay at your current T3. I’m sure your school has enough successful alumni to see that their top graduates don’t starve.
Personally, I would stay, but I am not concerned with the most prestigious anything. I would love to be hired by a respectable firm and grind it out. Build up a client list and possibly open my own practice or something along those lines down the road, create my own path in the legal industry. I’ve always looked at the attorneys with smaller practices hauling in the cash as cool, not partners at huge vault firms- just my opinion.

Plus, I feel like you should have some loyalty. I’m assuming your LSAT wasn’t super impressive, and your T3 gave you a chance to prove the schools that passed on you wrong. The T3 needs people like you to succeed and give back.

[RonSantoRules]

My desire to transfer into an elite school was never really about job placement and a lot more about personal achievement and a feeling of accomplishment.

You're a good poster on here, and no offense, but if you have family to take care of, you'd better have a better reason to transfer than this.

Also, XXSpyKEx's post is credited.

Lastly, the 0L who posted and said you should have loyalty is retarded. You are nothing but a data point for your school in the USNWR. Loyalty to your old school should be the last thing you consider when transferring.

[A'nold]

My desire to transfer into an elite school was never really about job placement and a lot more about personal achievement and a feeling of accomplishment.

You're a good poster on here, and no offense, but if you have family to take care of, you'd better have a better reason to transfer than this.

Also, XXSpyKEx's post is credited.

Lastly, the 0L who posted and said you should have loyalty is retarded. You are nothing but a data point for your school in the USNWR. Loyalty to your old school should be the last thing you consider when transferring.

Thanks for the post, I appreciate it. Also thanks to 0L dude. However, about the loyalty thing, my LSAT is many points above their 75%, so I really helped them out that way.

So.....my wife always tells me that I will be a better husband and father if I am proud of my accomplishments, but I also agree w/ you that this should definitely not be the only reason I should transfer. I do want what's best for them, and that's one of the reasons I appreciate all your guys' advice.

[OperaSoprano]

My desire to transfer into an elite school was never really about job placement and a lot more about personal achievement and a feeling of accomplishment.

You're a good poster on here, and no offense, but if you have family to take care of, you'd better have a better reason to transfer than this.

Also, XXSpyKEx's post is credited.

Lastly, the 0L who posted and said you should have loyalty is retarded. You are nothing but a data point for your school in the USNWR. Loyalty to your old school should be the last thing you consider when transferring.

Thanks for the post, I appreciate it. Also thanks to 0L dude. However, about the loyalty thing, my LSAT is many points above their 75%, so I really helped them out that way.

So.....my wife always tells me that I will be a better husband and father if I am proud of my accomplishments, but I also agree w/ you that this should definitely not be the only reason I should transfer. I do want what's best for them, and that's one of the reasons I appreciate all your guys' advice.

A'nold, you have always had your head on right, lol, and your family is lucky to have you.

To RonSantoRules: I am a 1L who feels incredible loyalty to my own school. There is nothing retarded about that. It is just another way of looking at personal happiness. When assessing goals, career placement has to come first, obviously, but I see nothing wrong with wanting to give back, provided it won't compromise the student's career goals. People struggle with this a great deal, and there is no simple answer, unless you simply don't like your current school at all. That is not the case for most of us.