for those wondering what the grade cutoffs for fed. govt., Forum

[dudester]

Well, in three years lets come on here and discuss this again.

If I havent been murdered, Ill go for a DOJ position and see what happens. Maybe someone will tell me "You didnt go to Georgetown or Harvard? Sorry we dont want you even if you are top 10 in your class" or maybe someone will say "You did very well. Even though you didnt go to so and so school, youve proven yourself to be a very hard worker and youre very good looking so, youre hired!". Haha. Ok that final part might not happen. If it wer to happen I hope a woman is interviewing me. HAHAA.

[acdisagod]

Anyone have any idea what the cutoff would be at a lower t-14 Maybe top half plus secondary journal? Or top 1/3 with some extracarriculars

[swester]

Anyone have any idea what the cutoff would be at a lower t-14 Maybe top half plus secondary journal?

Just take into account:

1) All the higher-ranked than you and with primary journal at your school who might apply.
2) All the higher-ranked than you and with primary journal at the schools higher ranked than yours.
3) Everyone at HYS, with or without journal, who might apply.
4) The recently laid-off attorneys from the private sector who might apply.
5) The top 5% from, say, top tier and some TT schools who might apply.
6) Anyone who doesn't fit the categories above + has awesome connections.

So that's roughly the situation. It's not totally out of the question, but yeah, you see what the scene is. No guarantees anywhere.

[acdisagod]

Yea, that's a lot of competition. I was saying top half with secondary is a complete guess at what I thought the cut off was just to be considered, not that top half with secondary would guarantee you anything.

[gdane]

Forget about "cutoffs". Seriously. You people are sick. You want to divide everything into neat little packets, but the truth is that that cant be done. To say "The people from the school that is ranked one spot above you are going to have an easier time getting jobs instead of you" is just stupid.

Rankings dont matter. I say that after having spoken with law professors, practicing attorneys and a family friend that is an administrative assistant for Holland and Knight here in Miami. Do those people that go to t14 have an easier time finding a job than those that go to lets say George Mason University? Yes. However, to say that all jobs will go to them first is wrong.

I was scared into thinking that unless I went to a t14, I wasnt going to be able to find a legal job that paid decently. However, after talking to all the aforementioned people, I feel as if though thats all baloney. One attorney I spoke to went to American U and is now practicing Biglaw here in Miami. My family friend told me that last year a few FIU grads were hired at Holland and Knight. They were at the very top of their class and had all types of distinctions from what I heard, but the point is that one need not go to a t14 to get a good job. Ive been reassured that as long as I do very well, get on law review or some journal and have a good personality, Ill find a good legal job upon graduation. You ever wonder why t14 grads dont get callbacks in spite of having good grades? Maybe its because they have no personality or just rubbed the interviewer wrong.

[270910]

Forget about "cutoffs". Seriously. You people are sick. You want to divide everything into neat little packets, but the truth is that that cant be done. To say "The people from the school that is ranked one spot above you are going to have an easier time getting jobs instead of you" is just stupid.

Rankings dont matter. I say that after having spoken with law professors, practicing attorneys and a family friend that is an administrative assistant for Holland and Knight here in Miami. Do those people that go to t14 have an easier time finding a job than those that go to lets say George Mason University? Yes. However, to say that all jobs will go to them first is wrong.

I was scared into thinking that unless I went to a t14, I wasnt going to be able to find a legal job that paid decently. However, after talking to all the aforementioned people, I feel as if though thats all baloney. One attorney I spoke to went to American U and is now practicing Biglaw here in Miami. My family friend told me that last year a few FIU grads were hired at Holland and Knight. They were at the very top of their class and had all types of distinctions from what I heard, but the point is that one need not go to a t14 to get a good job. Ive been reassured that as long as I do very well, get on law review or some journal and have a good personality, Ill find a good legal job upon graduation. You ever wonder why t14 grads dont get callbacks in spite of having good grades? Maybe its because they have no personality or just rubbed the interviewer wrong.

So, nothing you wrote there is wrong... but you DO realize that law review and distinction mean generally the top 10% of your class? And that law school is hyper-competitive, which means beating 90% of your peers is hard, grueling, stressful, uncertain work?

That being said, you are 100% correct that in the top law review and/or top 10% (little higher or lower depending on the school) at almost any law school you will have strong legal employment options, including big law.

[Boba Fett]

A person that graduates at the top of their class from UMiami didnt work any less that a person that graduated at the median at Harvard. In my opinion, the UMiami grad worked harder. Ultimately, hard work should be rewarded, not name recognition.

+ 1,000,0000

If you didn't work hard enough to score 99%+ on the LSAT, best of luck to you at butt-fucked UMiami! And if you later change your work ethic and work hard at the aforementioned butt-fucked UMiami, then you are most definitely entitled to a quaint, cute little position at the local Office of the Ambulance Chaser (in your case, See Alex Hanna (LinkRemoved)). The fact that you come from butt-fucked UMiami should not hold you back!

[BradyToMoss]

gdane must be a troll.

[acdisagod]

Forget about "cutoffs". Seriously. You people are sick. You want to divide everything into neat little packets, but the truth is that that cant be done. To say "The people from the school that is ranked one spot above you are going to have an easier time getting jobs instead of you" is just stupid.

Rankings dont matter. I say that after having spoken with law professors, practicing attorneys and a family friend that is an administrative assistant for Holland and Knight here in Miami. Do those people that go to t14 have an easier time finding a job than those that go to lets say George Mason University? Yes. However, to say that all jobs will go to them first is wrong.

I was scared into thinking that unless I went to a t14, I wasnt going to be able to find a legal job that paid decently. However, after talking to all the aforementioned people, I feel as if though thats all baloney. One attorney I spoke to went to American U and is now practicing Biglaw here in Miami. My family friend told me that last year a few FIU grads were hired at Holland and Knight. They were at the very top of their class and had all types of distinctions from what I heard, but the point is that one need not go to a t14 to get a good job. Ive been reassured that as long as I do very well, get on law review or some journal and have a good personality, Ill find a good legal job upon graduation. You ever wonder why t14 grads dont get callbacks in spite of having good grades? Maybe its because they have no personality or just rubbed the interviewer wrong.

I'm glad you "talked to people" but look at the numbers. If you go to a top school, well over 50% (at least pre ITE) were getting biglaw and getting placed at nlj 250 firms. If you look at most t3, 5% at best are getting biglaw. How can you say rankings don't matter. This is in no way to say you won't get a decent job if you don't go to a t1, it's just that your assertion that rankings don't matter is both absurd, and baseless. If rankings didn't matter, albany would place the same amount of students at elite firms as Harvard, it does not.

Your argument that ranking don't matter is that the top students at bad schools get good jobs. Well what about those at median and below? Compare apples to apples, not the top students at a t3 to the middle students at a t14.

[acdisagod]

In closing, just below median at Harvard and you have good career options, below median at Cooley, not so much.

Edit: Also just noticed your're building a strawman. No one said that being at a school ranked one spot higher will help. We're saying there is a difference between Cornell and Brooklyn law school.

And just to make this clear, I am in no way trying to be elitist or say t-14 or bust. Brooklyn is a good school and you can certainly do well if you graduate from there, it's just that Cornell gives you a better chance to be successful.

[RVP11]

You people are sick. You want to divide everything into neat little packets, but the truth is that that cant be done.

This is a big part of what lawyers and judges do. Divide and classify.

EDIT: You're a troll.

[gdane]

I have no idea what a troll is. I dont use internet slang. My guess is that its a hater.

In any case, I guess I didnt make myself clear. Sorry. What i meant by rankings dont matter is that at the top and tier 1 schools, rankings arent as important as many people on here make them seem. A lot of people on here put the USNWR rankings on a pedestal. Of course there is a huge difference between a school like lets say, Fordham (Tier 1) and Brooklyn and more often than not the Fordham graduate will have an easier time finding a well paying legal job. However, my problem is with the people that believe that, lets say, Boston College is a 100x better school just because its "ranked" 4 spots ahead of Fordham. And there are people on here that believe that. I think both schools are on par and offer their students many great opportunities in their respective regions.

Another thing I want to bring up is this notion that unless you go to Biglaw, youre a failure. It seems like there are people on here that believe that "You have to go T14 or youre a failure " and "Biglaw or youre a failure". Biglaw is not the only form of employment and many people dont want to go into it. People aspire to do all types of things from Prosecute for the federal government to drafting contracts for an athlete and everything in between. So to dismiss someone from Brooklyn just because they are working for the DA and not a Biglaw firm, is wrong.

Whatever. Its all good. We all have our opinions and nooones going to change theirs.


I want to clarify one more thing. Of course Cornell will give someone better opportunities. Its freaking Cornell. When it comes to the t14, I think they are in a league of their own simply because they include reputable schools such as the Ivy's and other large UNI's like UVA and NW etc etc. However, my argument is that after t14, the rankings dont matter as much as people on here think they do. Within Tier 1. Anyway, take it easy guys.

[RVP11]

I have no idea what a troll is. I dont use internet slang. My guess is that its a hater.

In any case, I guess I didnt make myself clear. Sorry. What i meant by rankings dont matter is that at the top and tier 1 schools, rankings arent as important as many people on here make them seem. A lot of people on here put the USNWR rankings on a pedestal. Of course there is a huge difference between a school like lets say, Fordham (Tier 1) and Brooklyn and more often than not the Fordham graduate will have an easier time finding a well paying legal job. However, my problem is with the people that believe that, lets say, Boston College is a 100x better school just because its "ranked" 4 spots ahead of Fordham. And there are people on here that believe that. I think both schools are on par and offer their students many great opportunities in their respective regions.

Another thing I want to bring up is this notion that unless you go to Biglaw, youre a failure. It seems like there are people on here that believe that "You have to go T14 or youre a failure " and "Biglaw or youre a failure". Biglaw is not the only form of employment and many people dont want to go into it. People aspire to do all types of things from Prosecute for the federal government to drafting contracts for an athlete and everything in between. So to dismiss someone from Brooklyn just because they are working for the DA and not a Biglaw firm, is wrong.

Whatever. Its all good. We all have our opinions and nooones going to change theirs.


I want to clarify one more thing. Of course Cornell will give someone better opportunities. Its freaking Cornell. When it comes to the t14, I think they are in a league of their own simply because they include reputable schools such as the Ivy's and other large UNI's like UVA and NW etc etc. However, my argument is that after t14, the rankings dont matter as much as people on here think they do. Within Tier 1. Anyway, take it easy guys.

You can't name one person in this thread who made the argument that the ranking difference between BC and Fordham mattered, or that not getting BigLaw means you're a failure. You're essentially just ranting.

[ToTransferOrNot]

What do you mean this is the cutoff for lower tier 1? Is there a special set of more lenient requirements for t14 graduates?

[strike]Ive looked into federal government positions since Im very interested in a DOJ position and all I know is that they want people at the top of their respective classes. There is no distinction between t14 and non t14. It seems like many people feel very self entitled. "I went to a t14, so I should get all the jobs in the world." A person that graduates at the top of their class from UMiami didnt work any less that a person that graduated at the median at Harvard. In my opinion, the UMiami grad worked harder. Ultimately, hard work should be rewarded, not name recognition.[/strike]

I'm incredibly naive and have no idea how the legal world works.

As to your first question: yes, yes, there are.

[gdane]

You're 100% correct. I am naive. I havent actually gone through OCI, summer associateship or any of the steps to legal employment. So I have no way to substantiate my claims. However, I would venture that most everyone on this thread hasnt had to go through the ordeals of legal employment either. So most everyone else is also speaking naively.

In any case, Im just gonna go. Maybe when its my time I'll see that I was wrong and that it is indeed "T14 or failure".

[ScaredWorkedBored]

So much unsourced garbage & speculation in this thread

http://www.justice.gov/oig/special/s0806/final.pdf

We found that, in general, the major criteria considered by the
components from 2002 through 2006 included grades, quality of law
school, judicial clerkships, law review experience, work experience, and
a demonstrated interest in public service. Several of the components’
selecting officials told us that they considered it a positive factor when a
candidate had a federal clerkship, particularly a federal appellate
clerkship. In addition, some components looked for experience that
indicated an interest or expertise in the type of law practiced by that
component. For example, the Antitrust Division valued a background
in economics, ENRD a background in environmental issues, and the
Civil Division’s Office of Immigration Litigation (OIL) or EOIR a
background in immigration law.

The litigating divisions – Antitrust, Civil (with the exception of
OIL), Criminal, ENRD, and Tax – told us that they attracted high quality
candidates who attended top-tier law schools or who were
highly ranked at their law schools. In contrast, other components such
as ATF, BOP, DEA, EOIR, OJP, and PRAO reported that they had more
difficulty attracting candidates with top grades or from the top-ranked
law schools. As a result, they did not rely solely on academic standing
and often placed greater emphasis on factors such as interest and
expertise in their components’ subject matter. For candidates who
made it to the interview stage, the selecting officials said that
performance in interviews, writing samples, and references were also
considered.

[underdawg]

um every law school states somewhere in their promotional materials somewhere that they consider the whole applicant and not just GPA/LSAT.

you believe that too?

that may very well be about their hiring policies, but you're not getting a straight answer from THEIR OWN WEBSITE. COME ON!!!!!!111

[TTT-LS]

.

[270910]

I hereby move to temporarily enjoin gdane from posting in the employment forum. In support of my motion, I offer gdane's ridiculous posts as evidence.

Seconded.

[gdane]

Thirded.

Ill just watch the employment forum from this point on. It seems like there is a lot of conjecture out there and I personally dont know whats true. So, ill just stay on the sidelines.

[chadwick218]

I have seen a couple of agencies provide that the cutoff is the top 25% ... so maybe top 35-40% at a T-14 and top 10% at a T2, with 25% for everyone else in the middle.

[SteelReserve]

Thirded.

Ill just watch the employment forum from this point on. It seems like there is a lot of conjecture out there and I personally dont know whats true. So, ill just stay on the sidelines

Gdane at first I was facepalming at the naivete and irrelevance of your posts, then a little later I started almost feeling a little anger since it's thinking like yours which enables festering TTTs to stay in business and reap massive profits while ravaging students' lives, but then you seemed to carry this really well and admitted your naivete and showed proper deference to accuracy and truth.

So for that reason I wish you the absolute best! The thing is, just like you said, OCI starts in less than 4 months and by 6 months you will know the truth of the matter.

[underdawg]

I have seen a couple of agencies provide that the cutoff is the top 25% ... so maybe top 35-40% at a T-14 and top 10% at a T2, with 25% for everyone else in the middle.

wachtell's "cutoff" at NYU was/is a 3.5

lololol shows how accurate they are sometimes. the fed ones might be accurate, but no one here knows that. i'd venture a guess that they set it lower than it actually is to catch a few diamonds in the rough. like maybe the cutoff for a certain school is 25%, and that 25% guy has a shot if he just wows the interviewer, while top 15% is closer to what they actually want.

just saying...

[chadwick218]

wachtell's "cutoff" at NYU was/is a 3.5

That seems low, but wow! What is believed to be the top 10% mark at NYU?

[Anonymous User]

Wachtell's cutoff at YLS is "H," as in "Herb."