How likely is finding employment if... Forum

[Posner]

...

[Action Jackson]

I just think its unfair to tell people "You will fail at everything. Dont even try unless you're going to a T14".

But nobody is saying this. That quoted argument is a ridiculous straw man.

But this reveals the real truth on these boards: people going into LS have a salary number in their head, and when you tell them they most likely won't get that number they equate that with "fail at everything." That's really what's going on. <$60k = fail.

No matter how many times we say it people don't really get it: do NOT become a lawyer for the money. That doesn't just mean $160k, making it rain, money. That means any salary consideration at all. Just expel it from your mind. Assume you're going to get paid next to nothing and decide if that's what you want to do with your life. If it is, then GREAT. But if not, then do not go to law school.

[BradyToMoss]

I just think its unfair to tell people "You will fail at everything. Dont even try unless you're going to a T14".

But nobody is saying this. That quoted argument is a ridiculous straw man.

In truth, I don't think folks on TLS--at least informed folks--ever argue that lower-ranked schools aren't worth it. A second or third tier school can be a great investment if you have a full ride or something close to it (assuming no GPA reqs are attached to the $). If you can get 0% loans from your family, then that'd expand options too. And of course non-T14 schools like UT, Vandy, UCLA, and Fordham are often well worth the expense for many--though not all--students. It all comes down to being realistic about what you want and what's possible. And what we've been saying is that your posts, gdane, haven't been realistic.

Even with a full ride that does not include the opportunity cost of spending 3 years of your life working your butt off...

Not disputing anything TTT-LS said, but you'll be working harder in that full-time 40k/year post-undergrad job than you will at law school...

[clintonius]

That is not true in every case -- I've got a $40k+ job that's 9-5 and overall fairly relaxed. I'm sure you'll find jobs with varying amounts of intensity, but they're certainly not all going to be more work than law school

[ToTransferOrNot]

The idea that most people with an undergrad degree, particularly considering the undergrad degrees that are most typical for law students, could get a $40k/year job is beyond absurd.

[BradyToMoss]

That is not true in every case -- I've got a $40k+ job that's 9-5 and overall fairly relaxed. I'm sure you'll find jobs with varying amounts of intensity, but they're certainly not all going to be more work than law school

Most of the time, but not always, law school requires far less than 40 hours a week of dedication. As far as the "intensity" of the work, you're reading a book most of the time, and you can do this "work" at a location and time of your choice.

[TTT-LS]

.

[spinecho202]

This richest lawyer I know went to John Marshall and makes 2 large and runs his own bankruptcy firm...granted, im not saying this is your typical lawyer by any means, but more often than not I find rich lawyers are from TTTs and have successful sole proprietorships, esp trial attorneys

[spinecho202]

But I guess when you have 30,000 people that go to these TTT schools, a handful will succeed...but it just shows its possible, but not probable

[BradyToMoss]

The idea that most people with an undergrad degree, particularly considering the undergrad degrees that are most typical for law students, could get a $40k/year job is beyond absurd.

Explain your argument. I'll admit I was wrong if you offer proof. Here's mine: paralegals in major cities make 40k easy, often more. Those jobs require no grad degree or special skills, aside from being professional/organized. Tons of them are posted on Craigslist (see, e.g., http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/lgl/). There are a huge # of other jobs in government and low-level private sector that pay at least 40k and require little more than an undergrad degree. Sure, these jobs are in major cities and suburbs, not Nowheresville, Arkansas, but I never said anything about geography when I initially made the claim. I just said people could find a 40k job somewhere.

I'm not entirely sure you can just show up with a college degree and land a paralegal gig paying $40k/year. $40k/year jobs are reasonable for people who can stand out from other candidates (good school, very strong gpa, or useful skills/experience), but for many college grads today there are simply too few of these positions and too many applicants.

[Anonymous User]

The idea that most people with an undergrad degree, particularly considering the undergrad degrees that are most typical for law students, could get a $40k/year job is beyond absurd.

Explain your argument. I'll admit I was wrong if you offer proof. Here's mine: paralegals in major cities make 40k easy, often more. Those jobs require no grad degree or special skills, aside from being professional/organized. Tons of them are posted on Craigslist (see, e.g., http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/lgl/). There are a huge # of other jobs in government and low-level private sector that pay at least 40k and require little more than an undergrad degree. Sure, these jobs are in major cities and suburbs, not Nowheresville, Arkansas, but I never said anything about geography when I initially made the claim. I just said people could find a 40k job somewhere.

anyone can get 40k job w 9.7% unemployment...and 20% underemployment?

[bigben]

This richest lawyer I know went to John Marshall and makes 2 large and runs his own bankruptcy firm...granted, im not saying this is your typical lawyer by any means, but more often than not I find rich lawyers are from TTTs and have successful sole proprietorships, esp trial attorneys

I've also noticed that people who win the lottery tend to be poor beforehand.

[spinecho202]

There is a market though, do you see anyone outside the TTT taking on foreclosed homes and chasing ambulances? I'd never want to do it, but it in theory could be profitable, just going back to the OPs original question if he could get a job...

[XxSpyKEx]

The idea that most people with an undergrad degree, particularly considering the undergrad degrees that are most typical for law students, could get a $40k/year job is beyond absurd.

Explain your argument. I'll admit I was wrong if you offer proof. Here's mine: paralegals in major cities make 40k easy, often more. Those jobs require no grad degree or special skills, aside from being professional/organized. Tons of them are posted on Craigslist (see, e.g., http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/lgl/). There are a huge # of other jobs in government and low-level private sector that pay at least 40k and require little more than an undergrad degree. Sure, these jobs are in major cities and suburbs, not Nowheresville, Arkansas, but I never said anything about geography when I initially made the claim. I just said people could find a 40k job somewhere.

I think this is just the difference between the typical NU student, which has significant work experience prior to entering law school, and the typical law student that has some bullshit BA lib arts degree and would have had a tough time finding a job doing much more then dining tables or working retail. I find it mind boggling that so many people go to college and major in something so useless (e.g. majoring in English when you have no desire to teach, and that's the only thing you can do with that degree), but that consists of a most law students. In those cases I think a full ride or close to it and leaving law school with a job that pays $40K /year is a win because it's almost like redoing undergrad in majoring in something practical. However, for people that had degrees that could have found them some type of professional jobs, $40K /year after law school is not a win because most real majors can make at least that post graduation (e.g. engineering majors, industrial tech, business, hard science, or really anything that's practical as oppose to just dumb -- such as political science).

There is a market though, do you see anyone outside the TTT taking on foreclosed homes and chasing ambulances? I'd never want to do it, but it in theory could be profitable, just going back to the OPs original question if he could get a job...

I wouldn't underestimate the difficulty of finding any of those jobs leaving a shitty school either. It's not like these law firms are just like "oh, so I see you got shut out of OCI and really want to do something else, but we'll just offer you a job because there is no one else applying so you can hang out here and do shitty quality work and bring our firm down while you search for different employment." Just look all the bums on JDU that went to TTTs and can't even find shitlaw. You typically won't find t14 grads in that type of employment because they don't have to take it (nor want it), but the lack of t14 grads in that type of employment doesn't imply that anyone from some TTT (such as most t2s) will be able to get those jobs. There definitely are people that go to law school wanting to work in these practice areas.