I don't understand this TTT will get you nowhere stuff... Forum

[DoubleChecks]

Let's me get this straight. You "know" 2 people that have secured, at best, mediocre jobs and one person who secured a secondary market biglaw job through connections--and that is supposed to disprove something? I'm pretty sure this agrees with the prevailing opinion here about TTTs.

Yes. TLS says go to Tier 3 and work at McDonalds. This is wrong as is your statement that the prevailing opinion is correct here.

That isn't TLS' prevailing opinion. The prevailing opinion is that it the opportunities that a JD from a TTT affords aren't usually worth the cost of attending for most people without connections or without a significant scholarship. Aside from that overwhelming evidence that most people from these schools aren't going to secure high-paying jobs, taking on six figure debt for a chance at a 30k/yr gig or to get paid $16/hr doing document review for a biglaw firm isn't exactly a prudent economic decision so I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove or disprove.

Have to agree w/ AngryA here. I mean, 2/3 of the jobs you mentioned dont seem...well that impressive or good at all. Almost like jobs I can get w/o a JD or being in law school (so it'd be sans 100k+ debt lol).

And i know you werent SEARCHING for exceptions, but the vegas analogy said it best. Why are we even bothering w/ anecdotal evidence instead of just pointing fingers at the stats? It's like saying, okay a reputable online car website says x car is horrible, in fact, after 5000 ratings, it scored 2/5 stars. On the other hand, 2 friends i know who have the car say it runs great and they love it. Must be a good car to buy lol.

[carlkenneth]

While I definitely understand and agree with the concerns on TLS re: job prospects from TTT vs. T14, I have to say that I do find the amount of TTT bashing annoying.

There seems to be an assumption on this site that most people are either looking to go into Big Law or corporate practice making 6 figures, or even plan on practicing law (yes-one can do other things with a law degree). This simply isn't the case.

It's quite possible (and probable) that someone with a law degree from a TTT can get a job that they are happy with. Maybe they won't be making $120K, $90K, or even $60K - but some people are okay with that. Maybe it will be a job that they could have gotten without a law degree. But chances are, especially in this economy that having a law degree, or any post-BA degee for that matter, will serve as an advantage when looking for a job.

[APimpNamedSlickback]

HOLY BATMAN, ttt student/0l doesn't understand something!?!? color me shocked.

after all of the studies and news reports, this kind of thread warrants only sarcasm and scorn. dont expect people to change generally accepted views purely on the basis of anecdotal evidence and lots of your indignation bro

[DoubleChecks]

While I definitely understand and agree with the concerns on TLS re: job prospects from TTT vs. T14, I have to say that I do find the amount of TTT bashing annoying.

There seems to be an assumption on this site that most people are either looking to go into Big Law or corporate practice making 6 figures, or even plan on practicing law (yes-one can do other things with a law degree). This simply isn't the case.

It's quite possible (and probable) that someone with a law degree from a TTT can get a job that they are happy with. Maybe they won't be making $120K, $90K, or even $60K - but some people are okay with that. Maybe it will be a job that they could have gotten without a law degree. But chances are, especially in this economy that having a law degree, or any post-BA degee for that matter, will serve as an advantage when looking for a job.

and hey, if thats their goal, good for them

in fact, if someone explicitly stated they werent looking for a bigfirm job, corp, etc. i think ppl respond differently

but here's the prob, as much as a JD can be an "advantage" (arguable outside law), being in $150k debt is never to your favor

thats what most ppl have the prob w/, the HUGE debt that comes along w/ TTT...so that a 60k job really is not okay lol

if its free and its in an area you want to be in, why not? the bashing is cuz this site is...TOP law schools after all...

[Anonymous User]

HOLY BATMAN, ttt student/0l doesn't understand something!?!? color me shocked.

after all of the studies and news reports, this kind of thread warrants only sarcasm and scorn. dont expect people to change generally accepted views purely on the basis of anecdotal evidence and lots of your indignation bro

I am not your "bro."

[kams]

It's not like going to a TTT guarantees that it will get you nowhere, but it's just quite likely. Just because you can name a few exceptions doesn't really mean anything. I have 4 friends right now who dropped out of high school, 2 of them put together a website, 2 put together a business, and all 4 of them make 6 figures easy. Does that mean that dropping out of high school will not get you nowhere (or something to that effect)?

Gotta be logical. Wasn't there a flaw type on the LSAT that mentioned this?

I am not searching for exceptions though. EVERY SINGLE PERSON I know that goes to a Tier 3 or Tier 4 (only 3 people, I know) have jobs. The way people talk on here make this seem like it is less than a 1% probability.

Yeah, you're right. Every lawyer that I personally know makes $145,000 a year at least. Not even joking. I'm not searching them out either! That must mean that all lawyers make that much right?

[Anonymous User]

Why is this anonymous?

I think it is because the OP doesn't want everyone to put 2 and 2 together and think that he was also the recent OP of the following thread: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 4&t=108047

[LurkerNoMore]

1. Friend goes to a USNWR Tier 3 school in a midwest market, has no family connections, is below median at his school and just got a summer position at one of the "Big Four" talent agencies in Los Angeles.

Paid or unpaid? Many places have summer internship programs that are either unpaid or pay a nominal wage that do not lead to any future offer of employment.

Also, you later seem to state that this person has their family picking up the tab on law school. I don't think anyone here argues that one shouldn't go to law school for free (they may argue that there are better uses for the money, but that is a different issue).

2. Friend goes to a USNWR Tier 4 school, no family connections and will be holding a $16/hr. job at a "BigLaw" firm this summer. He is ranked around 20th in a class size of around 110 or so.

What do you mean by "BigLaw"? Market rate for BigLaw is about $2500-3000 per week. This is either not an actual BigLaw firm, or is a position that is considerably inferior to a traditional summer associate position.

A $16/hour job with unlikely prospects for permanent employment (or offers for permanent employment that will be at a low wage) does not justify full price for most T4 law schools. Again, if there is a significant scholarship or family money in play, the calculus changes.

3. Friend goes to a USNWR Tier 3 school in a midwest market, some family connections and will be working a paid summer position at a "BigLaw" firm in that midwest market.

Based upon your previous examples, I wonder about both how much this individual is earning and at what type of firm. They also have family connections.

Basically your examples prove the conventional wisdom that lower rank law schools require you to have family connections or family money to be worth full tuition and that job prospects are significantly diminished compared to those of higher ranked schools that often charge comparable rates for tuition.

[vanwinkle]

Why is this anonymous?

I think it is because the OP doesn't want everyone to put 2 and 2 together and think that he was also the recent OP of the following thread: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 4&t=108047

But then, why are YOU anonymous?

People are abusing the anonymous feature like crazy in this thread.

[Anonymous User]

Why is this anonymous?

I think it is because the OP doesn't want everyone to put 2 and 2 together and think that he was also the recent OP of the following thread: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 4&t=108047

But then, why are YOU anonymous?

People are abusing the anonymous feature like crazy in this thread.

Na UH!!!

[Richie Tenenbaum]

Why is this anonymous?

I think it is because the OP doesn't want everyone to put 2 and 2 together and think that he was also the recent OP of the following thread: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 4&t=108047

But then, why are YOU anonymous?

People are abusing the anonymous feature like crazy in this thread.

Na UH!!!

Okay, the "Na UH!!!" was me. Bad attempt at humor?

[rayiner]

$16 an hour? You can make that much working at Best Buy if you work your way up for a year or two.

[vanwinkle]

$16 an hour? You can make that much working at Best Buy if you work your way up for a year or two.

Dude, in some parts of the country bus drivers start out above $16/hr. Who the fuck goes to law school to make that little?

[PDaddy]

It's not like going to a TTT guarantees that it will get you nowhere, but it's just quite likely. Just because you can name a few exceptions doesn't really mean anything. I have 4 friends right now who dropped out of high school, 2 of them put together a website, 2 put together a business, and all 4 of them make 6 figures easy. Does that mean that dropping out of high school will not get you nowhere (or something to that effect)?

Gotta be logical. Wasn't there a flaw type on the LSAT that mentioned this?

Yes! There are always at least a few of these on the LSAT:

They tend to begin with, "...neglects to consider...", "...presumes..." or "...takes for granted...", and end with something like "...cites unrepresentative sample."

But I'm leaving this circus because somebody threw a flame!

[98234872348]

$16 an hour? You can make that much working at Best Buy if you work your way up for a year or two.

Dude, in some parts of the country bus drivers start out above $16/hr. Who the fuck goes to law school to make that little?

I don't know what kind of awesome 1L summer internships you guys have, but I'd take $16/hr (even though I made more than that out of UG ).

[OperaSoprano]

$16 an hour? You can make that much working at Best Buy if you work your way up for a year or two.

Dude, in some parts of the country bus drivers start out above $16/hr. Who the fuck goes to law school to make that little?

To be fair, I do think many people go for reasons that have little to do with salary expectations. I have several classmates who know they will be taking a pay cut to work in their chosen area of law upon graduation.

My personal calculus is simple: because I stand a better chance than not of getting a job that will make me happy as a graduate of my own school, it's worth the money to me. "Worth the money" is dependent, of course, upon the existence of IBR. It would be foolhardy to borrow $220k to go anywhere without some sort of safety net, as it's now possible to miss biglaw even at a T10. I think it's paternalistic to assume that all T3 and T4 students neglect to do their research, however. We don't know the situation of every single person who borrows to go to a lower ranked school. For many people, this is an unwise choice, but I don't think TLS serves future law students by perpetuating the same trite elitism. We can and should share the facts of the market with the OP, but the decision to place the dividing line anywhere (T6, T14, T30, T100) is entirely dependent on the goals of the individual, and what he or she is willing to give up in exchange for a legal education. There could very easily be sacrifice involved. Are we comfortable with downward mobility, so to speak? Is that ever justified? I honestly can't imagine that people get into this kind of debt without knowing, and thinking long and hard about what comes next.

[98234872348]

I honestly can't imagine that people get into this kind of debt without knowing, and thinking long and hard about what comes next.

I agreed with everything you said until this last point; there are plenty of people who don't understand the repercussions of their actions, or that are deluded by the glossy brochures promising a 6 figure starting salary (I'm looking at you, NYLS). Although those of us on TLS are typically astute enough to research actual career prospects out of these schools and see through the facade projected by the marketing directors of these institutions, there are plenty of people who are naive and optimistic and will head off to law school without fully considering the decision, despite the fact that they are going to take out hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of loans.

I mean, think about the recession we're in currently; half the reason the stock market nearly collapsed was profligate lending practices and people purchasing houses that they couldn't afford. Do you think these people, many of whom were responsible adults (not fresh out of undergraduate kids with no little or no real work or life experience) "did their research" and "thought long and hard" about how their credit and lives would be ruined when the house they purchased was foreclosed upon? I doubt it. People make foolish and ignorant decisions all the time, it's human nature to rush into something because it is gratifying in the short term (read: "oh, I am going to lawl school and I am all but guaranteed a license to print money upon graduation) without considering the full ramifications of their actions and carefully weighing the options they are presented with.

I don't mean to say this applies to the majority of applicants at lower ranked schools, but I have certainly seen that kind of mentality in many of my classmates (though that optimism is slowly evaporating and being replaced by resigned melancholy and disillusionment) and I think that it is a positive service to give an objective, realistic portrayal of how bad things can get. Sure, I don't think that anyone should be so pretentious or condescending as to automatically presume that going to one of these schools makes someone naive, but certainly people planning on attending ANY school should be confronted with the realities, both good and bad, of attendance.

[Renzo]

$16 an hour? You can make that much working at Best Buy if you work your way up for a year or two.

Dude, in some parts of the country bus drivers start out above $16/hr. Who the fuck goes to law school to make that little?

To be fair, I do think many people go for reasons that have little to do with salary expectations. I have several classmates who know they will be taking a pay cut to work in their chosen area of law upon graduation.

My personal calculus is simple: because I stand a better chance than not of getting a job that will make me happy as a graduate of my own school, it's worth the money to me. "Worth the money" is dependent, of course, upon the existence of IBR. It would be foolhardy to borrow $220k to go anywhere without some sort of safety net, as it's now possible to miss biglaw even at a T10. I think it's paternalistic to assume that all T3 and T4 students neglect to do their research, however. We don't know the situation of every single person who borrows to go to a lower ranked school. For many people, this is an unwise choice, but I don't think TLS serves future law students by perpetuating the same trite elitism. We can and should share the facts of the market with the OP, but the decision to place the dividing line anywhere (T6, T14, T30, T100) is entirely dependent on the goals of the individual, and what he or she is willing to give up in exchange for a legal education. There could very easily be sacrifice involved. Are we comfortable with downward mobility, so to speak? Is that ever justified? I honestly can't imagine that people get into this kind of debt without knowing, and thinking long and hard about what comes next.

Money isn't everything, and you're right that a lot of people go to law school for non-monetary reasons, in which case T3/4 schools may make sense. But the OP was trying to use a $16/hr "biglaw" job as proof that career prospects out of those schools are good, or at least better than believed. This is a bad argument, and probably not even true--$16/hr biglaw gigs don't exist. I'd be surprised if the paralegals weren't making more than that

[APimpNamedSlickback]

HOLY BATMAN, ttt student/0l doesn't understand something!?!? color me shocked.

after all of the studies and news reports, this kind of thread warrants only sarcasm and scorn. dont expect people to change generally accepted views purely on the basis of anecdotal evidence and lots of your indignation bro

I am not your "bro."

haha oh course you're not my "bro." my folks would off either me or any of my siblings for shaming the family with a tier 4 school. seriously, they would suffocate me with a pillow.

[TTT-LS]

.

[Richie Tenenbaum]

Dear Mods: Out this motherf*cker.

I self-outed. Read next post.

[OperaSoprano]

I honestly can't imagine that people get into this kind of debt without knowing, and thinking long and hard about what comes next.

I agreed with everything you said until this last point; there are plenty of people who don't understand the repercussions of their actions, or that are deluded by the glossy brochures promising a 6 figure starting salary (I'm looking at you, NYLS). Although those of us on TLS are typically astute enough to research actual career prospects out of these schools and see through the facade projected by the marketing directors of these institutions, there are plenty of people who are naive and optimistic and will head off to law school without fully considering the decision, despite the fact that they are going to take out hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of loans.

I mean, think about the recession we're in currently; half the reason the stock market nearly collapsed was profligate lending practices and people purchasing houses that they couldn't afford. Do you think these people, many of whom were responsible adults (not fresh out of undergraduate kids with no little or no real work or life experience) "did their research" and "thought long and hard" about how their credit and lives would be ruined when the house they purchased was foreclosed upon? I doubt it. People make foolish and ignorant decisions all the time, it's human nature to rush into something because it is gratifying in the short term (read: "oh, I am going to lawl school and I am all but guaranteed a license to print money upon graduation) without considering the full ramifications of their actions and carefully weighing the options they are presented with.

I don't mean to say this applies to the majority of applicants at lower ranked schools, but I have certainly seen that kind of mentality in many of my classmates (though that optimism is slowly evaporating and being replaced by resigned melancholy and disillusionment) and I think that it is a positive service to give an objective, realistic portrayal of how bad things can get. Sure, I don't think that anyone should be so pretentious or condescending as to automatically presume that going to one of these schools makes someone naive, but certainly people planning on attending ANY school should be confronted with the realities, both good and bad, of attendance.

I made a (perhaps misguided) attempt to give people the benefit of the doubt. There is a prevailing view on TLS that we (attendees of T14 or even T30 schools) are wiser, or have done more research, than our counterparts at T3 and T4 schools. I don't know that this is true. It stands to reason that in every population, there are individuals who will sign the loans without researching the job market or double checking employment statistics, but I object to the notion that it's primarily students attending lower ranked schools who make foolish decisions or don't think about what they are doing. I believe the culprit is more likely to be faulty information. At my school, 87% of graduates reported salary data. That's not perfect, but reasonable inferences can be drawn from that data set. At several lower ranked schools, that number is under 50%. I agree with you that schools should not be allowed to publish misleading data, but if blame is to be apportioned, I would place it with the schools that are ranking in the $$$.

Positive, solid information is always welcome-- I just don't think we should assume that T3 and T4 students have lots of debt and lower career prospects through their own fault.

[OperaSoprano]

Dear Mods: Out this motherf*cker.

The OP was MU2009. I sent a quick note re: anonymous posting on this forum, and how it should be reserved for posting sensitive information.

[OperaSoprano]

$16 an hour? You can make that much working at Best Buy if you work your way up for a year or two.

Dude, in some parts of the country bus drivers start out above $16/hr. Who the fuck goes to law school to make that little?

To be fair, I do think many people go for reasons that have little to do with salary expectations. I have several classmates who know they will be taking a pay cut to work in their chosen area of law upon graduation.

My personal calculus is simple: because I stand a better chance than not of getting a job that will make me happy as a graduate of my own school, it's worth the money to me. "Worth the money" is dependent, of course, upon the existence of IBR. It would be foolhardy to borrow $220k to go anywhere without some sort of safety net, as it's now possible to miss biglaw even at a T10. I think it's paternalistic to assume that all T3 and T4 students neglect to do their research, however. We don't know the situation of every single person who borrows to go to a lower ranked school. For many people, this is an unwise choice, but I don't think TLS serves future law students by perpetuating the same trite elitism. We can and should share the facts of the market with the OP, but the decision to place the dividing line anywhere (T6, T14, T30, T100) is entirely dependent on the goals of the individual, and what he or she is willing to give up in exchange for a legal education. There could very easily be sacrifice involved. Are we comfortable with downward mobility, so to speak? Is that ever justified? I honestly can't imagine that people get into this kind of debt without knowing, and thinking long and hard about what comes next.

Money isn't everything, and you're right that a lot of people go to law school for non-monetary reasons, in which case T3/4 schools may make sense. But the OP was trying to use a $16/hr "biglaw" job as proof that career prospects out of those schools are good, or at least better than believed. This is a bad argument, and probably not even true--$16/hr biglaw gigs don't exist. I'd be surprised if the paralegals weren't making more than that

Renzo, this is true. OP's argument is false, but it's been countered with arguments that don't tell the whole story, IMO. And you are correct. Biglaw paralegals can make more than many entry level attorneys-- I have a friend two years out of UG who is making serious bank as a paralegal at a top firm. I don't know her exact salary, but it's definitely way more than $16 an hour.

[Bankhead]

With OT I made about 60k a year as a biglaw paralegal.