V15 Partner/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions... Forum

[itbdvorm]

How can someone overcome bottom 25% grades at CCN to crack into the V15? Can it even be done absent some huge mitigating factor?

You never know, maybe Skadden. But best bet is really to go to another firm, do great work, and potentially lateral

[Old Gregg]

How can someone overcome bottom 25% grades at CCN to crack into the V15? Can it even be done absent some huge mitigating factor?

You never know, maybe Skadden. But best bet is really to go to another firm, do great work, and potentially lateral

And, to be sure, there are plenty of great firms outside of the V15 that are more attractive than any of the V15 if you're interested in certain practice areas.

[Anonymous User]

How can someone overcome bottom 25% grades at CCN to crack into the V15? Can it even be done absent some huge mitigating factor?

You never know, maybe Skadden. But best bet is really to go to another firm, do great work, and potentially lateral

Would being a URM change the thinking at all?

[itbdvorm]

How can someone overcome bottom 25% grades at CCN to crack into the V15? Can it even be done absent some huge mitigating factor?

You never know, maybe Skadden. But best bet is really to go to another firm, do great work, and potentially lateral

Would being a URM change the thinking at all?

yes, dramatically.

[yossarian]

I know to check individual firms to see their definitions of diversity; my question is for the firms that specifically include disabled persons in their diversity definition or who use a broad definition of diversity

Does a disabled person stand a chance for these SA's or are they really to bring in URMs?

[itbdvorm]

I know to check individual firms to see their definitions of diversity; my question is for the firms that specifically include disabled persons in their diversity definition or who use a broad definition of diversity

Does a disabled person stand a chance for these SA's or are they really to bring in URMs?

honestly don't know. probably case-by-case basis.

[Anonymous User]

It's going to change firm by firm and probably according to specifics only the hiring partners will know. Just try to get better grades, and have half your bids go to firms you can get if you were white to be safe.

[Anonymous User]

Not entirely sure where to ask this, but I figure I could get some decent responses here. As a 1L, say you did some V20 firm visits and had lunch or coffee with an associate (think first or second year, not older) - these firms aren't taking 1L SA's in your market, they just want to meet you in preparation for 2L OCI. They do a follow up email, you do a friendly follow up email, ect. Now you see they've looked you up on LinkedIn within a week after meeting them. Is it appropriate to add them to your network? Or is that overly aggressive networking? This is my circumstance with several firms. Thoughts?

[itbdvorm]

Not entirely sure where to ask this, but I figure I could get some decent responses here. As a 1L, say you did some V20 firm visits and had lunch or coffee with an associate (think first or second year, not older) - these firms aren't taking 1L SA's in your market, they just want to meet you in preparation for 2L OCI. They do a follow up email, you do a friendly follow up email, ect. Now you see they've looked you up on LinkedIn within a week after meeting them. Is it appropriate to add them to your network? Or is that overly aggressive networking? This is my circumstance with several firms. Thoughts?

If you clicked well with them, I think sure

[Old Gregg]

Not entirely sure where to ask this, but I figure I could get some decent responses here. As a 1L, say you did some V20 firm visits and had lunch or coffee with an associate (think first or second year, not older) - these firms aren't taking 1L SA's in your market, they just want to meet you in preparation for 2L OCI. They do a follow up email, you do a friendly follow up email, ect. Now you see they've looked you up on LinkedIn within a week after meeting them. Is it appropriate to add them to your network? Or is that overly aggressive networking? This is my circumstance with several firms. Thoughts?

Go for it, but don't overthink if if they do or do not reciprocate.

[Anonymous User]

I'm going to be spending the upcoming summer doing corporate work at a satellite office of a V5. Given the fact that NYC is the dominant city for corporate work, I'm interested in trying to get out to the firm's NYC office. Is that a possibility, and how/when do I approach making the move?

I understand this is all predicated on my receiving an offer at the end of the summer, so for sake of my question let's just suppose that happens.

[Old Gregg]

I'm going to be spending the upcoming summer doing corporate work at a satellite office of a V5. Given the fact that NYC is the dominant city for corporate work, I'm interested in trying to get out to the firm's NYC office. Is that a possibility, and how/when do I approach making the move?

I understand this is all predicated on my receiving an offer at the end of the summer, so for sake of my question let's just suppose that happens.

It varies from firm to firm. But if you make the request upon receiving the offer, I'm sure you could work something out with the firm. I think this is especially the case with your situation, as there shouldn't be any difficulty for an major M&A practice HQ'd in the city to accommodate a junior associate.

OP: Apologies if it looks like I'm stealing your thunder. I'm also an associate at a V10 so I thought I'd just chime in.

[Anonymous User]

I'm going to be spending the upcoming summer doing corporate work at a satellite office of a V5. Given the fact that NYC is the dominant city for corporate work, I'm interested in trying to get out to the firm's NYC office. Is that a possibility, and how/when do I approach making the move?

I understand this is all predicated on my receiving an offer at the end of the summer, so for sake of my question let's just suppose that happens.

It varies from firm to firm. But if you make the request upon receiving the offer, I'm sure you could work something out with the firm. I think this is especially the case with your situation, as there shouldn't be any difficulty for an major M&A practice HQ'd in the city to accommodate a junior associate.

OP: Apologies if it looks like I'm stealing your thunder. I'm also an associate at a V10 so I thought I'd just chime in.

Thanks zweitbester. If they don't have room in the NYC office or something like that, would I jeopardize my future at the satellite office? I have no qualms with being at that office, I just feel that it would behoove me to get out to the NYC office.

[Old Gregg]

I'm going to be spending the upcoming summer doing corporate work at a satellite office of a V5. Given the fact that NYC is the dominant city for corporate work, I'm interested in trying to get out to the firm's NYC office. Is that a possibility, and how/when do I approach making the move?

I understand this is all predicated on my receiving an offer at the end of the summer, so for sake of my question let's just suppose that happens.

It varies from firm to firm. But if you make the request upon receiving the offer, I'm sure you could work something out with the firm. I think this is especially the case with your situation, as there shouldn't be any difficulty for an major M&A practice HQ'd in the city to accommodate a junior associate.

OP: Apologies if it looks like I'm stealing your thunder. I'm also an associate at a V10 so I thought I'd just chime in.

Thanks zweitbester. If they don't have room in the NYC office or something like that, would I jeopardize my future at the satellite office? I have no qualms with being at that office, I just feel that it would behoove me to get out to the NYC office.

I am not going to judge the basis for your belief, as every firm is different. But you wouldn't jeopardize your future if you framed the request a certain way.

[Anonymous User]

Are you at all involved in 3L hiring? If so, how significant is the relative vault rank of the firm the 3L interviewer is coming from? Does it not matter and ride all on grades, or does the Vault ranking of the firm the 3L summered at play a role?

[Anonymous User]

I'm a 3L who is going to work at a V10 in NYC this fall after graduating. I think I will like NYC for a while, but I don't plan on staying forever. Any advice for someone who wants to lateral to a secondary market? FWIW, the V10 I'm at doesn't have any offices in the market(s) I would be transferring to.

ETA: Are there any practice groups that make it easier to lateral or ones that would be particularly ill advised?

[Old Gregg]

I'm a 3L who is going to work at a V10 in NYC this fall after graduating. I think I will like NYC for a while, but I don't plan on staying forever. Any advice for someone who wants to lateral to a secondary market? FWIW, the V10 I'm at doesn't have any offices in the market(s) I would be transferring to.

ETA: Are there any practice groups that make it easier to lateral or ones that would be particularly ill advised?

It's really hard to give specific advice on lateraling to a secondary market, since there's a lot of variation in the habits of specific secondary markets. For example, one's first instinct when lateraling is to work with a headhunter. For some secondary markets, that's ill advised. For others, it's absolutely necessary.

That said, leaving to go from NYC to a secondary market is so common that you should otherwise have no issue. However, some secondary markets will want to see some degree of commitment before agreeing even to interview. This can be accomplished in a number of ways:

1) Take and pass the state bar that encompasses that market (doesn't apply to DC, because it's assumed you can just waive in).

2) Say that you'll be in the market, on your own volition and expense, on certain dates (i.e., to visit family, friends, whatever), and that it would be great if you could meet some attorneys at the firm.

In terms of practice areas, I've always felt that corporate had an easier time if only because the practice isn't so "bar dependent," but I really could be wrong.

And if you're going to be working with a headhunter, do a lot of research and interviewing of headhunters before you select one. A good one can help you, but a bad one can really, really hurt you. You might get an email every once in while from Amy Kossoris. I've heard some very, very bad things about her.

[Anonymous User]

How possible/probable is it to lateral down from a corporate group at DPW/S&C/Cravath to a V100 as a senior associate (with the expectation of a decent chance at partner)? The reality of how often this move occurs seems subject to much debate on tls and id be curious to hear your perspective on "lateraling down" to partnership, or close to it.

[Old Gregg]

How possible/probable is it to lateral down from a corporate group at DPW/S&C/Cravath to a V100 as a senior associate (with the expectation of a decent chance at partner)? The reality of how often this move occurs seems subject to much debate on tls and id be curious to hear your perspective on "lateraling down" to partnership, or close to it.

It's extremely easy to lateral, and it's almost always assumed that you will be partner track. I don't think you can expect to gain seniority by virtue of your firm's status alone. You need to be a super star.

Lateralling into partnership is a whole 'nother diatribe. And I'm not going into it because I think the way it's discussed around here is mind blowingly stupid. Suffice it to say, you need not concern yourself with such thoughts. Focus on what you want to do and whether the firm you're looking that helps in that regard. Stop trying to check boxes. Shit isn't like that outside the warm womb of academia.

[itbdvorm]

I'm going to be spending the upcoming summer doing corporate work at a satellite office of a V5. Given the fact that NYC is the dominant city for corporate work, I'm interested in trying to get out to the firm's NYC office. Is that a possibility, and how/when do I approach making the move?

I understand this is all predicated on my receiving an offer at the end of the summer, so for sake of my question let's just suppose that happens.

It varies from firm to firm. But if you make the request upon receiving the offer, I'm sure you could work something out with the firm. I think this is especially the case with your situation, as there shouldn't be any difficulty for an major M&A practice HQ'd in the city to accommodate a junior associate.

OP: Apologies if it looks like I'm stealing your thunder. I'm also an associate at a V10 so I thought I'd just chime in.

No worries. Generally agree with what you're posting.

[itbdvorm]

How possible/probable is it to lateral down from a corporate group at DPW/S&C/Cravath to a V100 as a senior associate (with the expectation of a decent chance at partner)? The reality of how often this move occurs seems subject to much debate on tls and id be curious to hear your perspective on "lateraling down" to partnership, or close to it.

It's extremely easy to lateral, and it's almost always assumed that you will be partner track. I don't think you can expect to gain seniority by virtue of your firm's status alone. You need to be a super star.

Lateralling into partnership is a whole 'nother diatribe. And I'm not going into it because I think the way it's discussed around here is mind blowingly stupid. Suffice it to say, you need not concern yourself with such thoughts. Focus on what you want to do and whether the firm you're looking that helps in that regard. Stop trying to check boxes. Shit isn't like that outside the warm womb of academia.

Generally agree with this. The likelihood of being able to walk into partnership at a random firm absent any experience working with them is nearly nil. I think it used to happen more often. For example, in 2006 if you were a senior associate doing PE at STB/Latham/K&E/Deb/Weil you could probably walk into partnership at half-a-dozen firms trying to grow a PE presence, but so many things factored into that (internet boom leading to a lack of experienced senior associates + huge boom in practice). Even then I bet most people had at least some familiarty with someone in a hiring position at the firm they were moving to. Nowadays, I think there are occasional instances - but more often you're seeing people who get a tap or see the writing on the wall move with an expectation that they'll have a shot, but still need to prove themselves.

Put another way, if you're not the #1 superstar in your class (and accordingly the person with a shot at partnership who should stay), you need to make sure you're not moving to someplace that already has that superstar embedded (and while yes, sometimes being a senior associate at a V5 means you're light years ahead of the V75 guy, plenty of times it doesn't). If a place is making 1 banking partner every five years, being the second-best senior associate banking person may not get you anywhere.

[Anonymous User]

My friend is somewhat junior at a V100 firm. His firm pays a merit-based salary and bonus although salaries hew closely to market. He billed a ton of hours and received good reviews overall. But at his review this month, the comp committee fixated on constructive comments and then gave him an exceptionally low bonus. Even though my friend's firm will check for improvement, they told him that he is doing well and other positive comments that escape me at the moment. How bad are his circumstances? Was his firm trying to justify low-balling the bonus or is the writing on the wall? Is it worth the risk of going to a new firm where things could be worse? If so, how bad is it to lateral before 5th year?

[Old Gregg]

My friend is somewhat junior at a V100 firm. His firm pays a merit-based salary and bonus although salaries hew closely to market. He billed a ton of hours and received good reviews overall. But at his review this month, the comp committee fixated on constructive comments and then gave him an exceptionally low bonus. Even though my friend's firm will check for improvement, they told him that he is doing well and other positive comments that escape me at the moment. How bad are his circumstances? Was his firm trying to justify low-balling the bonus or is the writing on the wall? Is it worth the risk of going to a new firm where things could be worse? If so, how bad is it to lateral before 5th year?

I'd say your friend is pretty close to being pushed out. I'm not sure who put the thought in your mind that lateraling before year 5 is "bad." It's totally fine and extremely common, especially since year 5 is the tail end of which one is most marketable for lateraling to other firms. Lateraling even before year 3 is fine if there are good reasons (geographic ones come to mind). But moves between year 3 and 5 predominate the law firm lateral market.

[UnfrozenCaveman]

two separate recruiters (at different firms) have indicated to me that it looks like they'll do more 3L hiring this year than previously. Do you think these are unusual, or that this might be more common?

I figure this to be the result of conservative 2L SA hiring and underestimating hiring needs (better to hire too little, than to be stuck with unneeded associates). What are your thoughts?

Definitely possible. And 2014 looks like it could be a big year

Can you expand on this at all? Do you mean that firms are killing it and are gonna need more bodies?

[Old Gregg]

two separate recruiters (at different firms) have indicated to me that it looks like they'll do more 3L hiring this year than previously. Do you think these are unusual, or that this might be more common?

I figure this to be the result of conservative 2L SA hiring and underestimating hiring needs (better to hire too little, than to be stuck with unneeded associates). What are your thoughts?

Definitely possible. And 2014 looks like it could be a big year

Can you expand on this at all? Do you mean that firms are killing it and are gonna need more bodies?

Perhaps itbdvorm has a different source and can expand some more, but from what I know it's widely believed that 2014 will be a killer year for M&A and IPOs.