Milbank/Davis Polk/Cravath Scale: NYC to 215-415k Forum

[Anonymous User]

SDEs at google with a one year online masters or bootcamp certificate who work 9-5 for 5 days a week are making 300k nowadays. Why shouldn’t lawyers get paid more?

A lot more students will just choose Leetcode over the LSAT.

Even the worst junior NBA players make 950k and that doesn’t include per diems when traveling and free food that is provided, plus they get a few days off each week and months off each year. Why would anyone go to law school?

Nice.

I do think people have a very skewed idea of what most SWEs/SDEs at Google make. $300k TC isn’t realistic until a few years out, and even then, nearly half is equity that vests in 4 years. There are threads with Google engineers that discuss this.

And the $700k-$1m is really a small group of folks who are pretty senior.

also it's fucking hard to be a really good programmer in a way that getting a 180 and grinding at biglaw are not

[2013]

SDEs at google with a one year online masters or bootcamp certificate who work 9-5 for 5 days a week are making 300k nowadays. Why shouldn’t lawyers get paid more?

A lot more students will just choose Leetcode over the LSAT.

Even the worst junior NBA players make 950k and that doesn’t include per diems when traveling and free food that is provided, plus they get a few days off each week and months off each year. Why would anyone go to law school?

Nice.

I do think people have a very skewed idea of what most SWEs/SDEs at Google make. $300k TC isn’t realistic until a few years out, and even then, nearly half is equity that vests in 4 years. There are threads with Google engineers that discuss this.

And the $700k-$1m is really a small group of folks who are pretty senior.

also it's fucking hard to be a really good programmer in a way that getting a 180 and grinding at biglaw are not

Also true.

[Anonymous User]

Where the V10 matches at?

[Anonymous User]

Do we need to change the thread title to "Three hundred ninety-six thousand five hundred"

[Ultramar vistas]

All the comps to in house engineers totally ignore risk as well.

I have friends who work at Amazon, who doubled their salaries through equity grants that grew extremely quickly over the last 5-8 years, but there was also real risk there the whole time In having such an undiversified position.

Not to mention, Amazon ruthlessly evaluates performance and fires the bottom performers no matter what.

V20 biglaw is unique in terms of job security, the percentage of your overall compensation that is straight cash, and the fact that bonuses are effectively guaranteed outside of major recessions.

[Anonymous User]

SDEs at google with a one year online masters or bootcamp certificate who work 9-5 for 5 days a week are making 300k nowadays. Why shouldn’t lawyers get paid more?

A lot more students will just choose Leetcode over the LSAT.

Even the worst junior NBA players make 950k and that doesn’t include per diems when traveling and free food that is provided, plus they get a few days off each week and months off each year. Why would anyone go to law school?

Nice.

I do think people have a very skewed idea of what most SWEs/SDEs at Google make. $300k TC isn’t realistic until a few years out, and even then, nearly half is equity that vests in 4 years. There are threads with Google engineers that discuss this.

And the $700k-$1m is really a small group of folks who are pretty senior.

It's more than "a few years out". It's 10 years out. They're the same age as us because they didn't go to law school, but you don't reach that salary/title level until about 10 years experience (which is often partner level at law firms and VPs at banks, so making less than finance/law still).

Also, I've looked into coding as an alternative path to law. A lot of people have this misconception that you go to 3 month coding school, it's super chill and then you get a $150k offer immediately upon graduation. That's just a fantasy.

For any reputable coding bootcamp, you need to be accepted (in order to get accepted you need to show some promise, so you better take pre-bootcamp bootcamp or learn some basic coding on your own). Then you get the privilege of paying $25k or so for an intensive, full-time bootcamp with no guaranty of a job. When you graduate, you'll study even more for interviews. It's not like OCI - they actually test your substantive knowledge and you'll need to spend hours and hours just training for these interviews. Finally, after spending $25k, 6months time and over a 1000 hours, you'll be extremely lucky to land a job in the 120-150k range. You can then work your way up from there.

It's a great option for young people or people without established careers. It doesn't really make sense for a lawyer unless you really, really want to be a programmer.

[Anonymous User]

SDEs at google with a one year online masters or bootcamp certificate who work 9-5 for 5 days a week are making 300k nowadays. Why shouldn’t lawyers get paid more?

A lot more students will just choose Leetcode over the LSAT.

Even the worst junior NBA players make 950k and that doesn’t include per diems when traveling and free food that is provided, plus they get a few days off each week and months off each year. Why would anyone go to law school?

Nice.

I do think people have a very skewed idea of what most SWEs/SDEs at Google make. $300k TC isn’t realistic until a few years out, and even then, nearly half is equity that vests in 4 years. There are threads with Google engineers that discuss this.

And the $700k-$1m is really a small group of folks who are pretty senior.

also it's fucking hard to be a really good programmer in a way that getting a 180 and grinding at biglaw are not

No it’s not. You can get a 160 and do decently in law school then you can code. It’s just as much a matter of grind as law

[Anonymous User]

Cleary matched DPW.

[Anonymous User]

SDEs at google with a one year online masters or bootcamp certificate who work 9-5 for 5 days a week are making 300k nowadays. Why shouldn’t lawyers get paid more?

A lot more students will just choose Leetcode over the LSAT.

Even the worst junior NBA players make 950k and that doesn’t include per diems when traveling and free food that is provided, plus they get a few days off each week and months off each year. Why would anyone go to law school?

Nice.

I do think people have a very skewed idea of what most SWEs/SDEs at Google make. $300k TC isn’t realistic until a few years out, and even then, nearly half is equity that vests in 4 years. There are threads with Google engineers that discuss this.

And the $700k-$1m is really a small group of folks who are pretty senior.

It's more than "a few years out". It's 10 years out. They're the same age as us because they didn't go to law school, but you don't reach that salary/title level until about 10 years experience (which is often partner level at law firms and VPs at banks, so making less than finance/law still).

Also, I've looked into coding as an alternative path to law. A lot of people have this misconception that you go to 3 month coding school, it's super chill and then you get a $150k offer immediately upon graduation. That's just a fantasy.

For any reputable coding bootcamp, you need to be accepted (in order to get accepted you need to show some promise, so you better take pre-bootcamp bootcamp or learn some basic coding on your own). Then you get the privilege of paying $25k or so for an intensive, full-time bootcamp with no guaranty of a job. When you graduate, you'll study even more for interviews. It's not like OCI - they actually test your substantive knowledge and you'll need to spend hours and hours just training for these interviews. Finally, after spending $25k, 6months time and over a 1000 hours, you'll be extremely lucky to land a job in the 120-150k range. You can then work your way up from there.

It's a great option for young people or people without established careers. It doesn't really make sense for a lawyer unless you really, really want to be a programmer.

Takes 4 years to triple your salary being an SDE. You can start off with a 80k job whatever. But each time you lateral, which is super easy btw, your comp doubles. You double your comp by firing your boss in tech. That’s how it works.

[McGruff]

SDEs at google with a one year online masters or bootcamp certificate who work 9-5 for 5 days a week are making 300k nowadays. Why shouldn’t lawyers get paid more?

A lot more students will just choose Leetcode over the LSAT.

Even the worst junior NBA players make 950k and that doesn’t include per diems when traveling and free food that is provided, plus they get a few days off each week and months off each year. Why would anyone go to law school?

Nice.

I do think people have a very skewed idea of what most SWEs/SDEs at Google make. $300k TC isn’t realistic until a few years out, and even then, nearly half is equity that vests in 4 years. There are threads with Google engineers that discuss this.

And the $700k-$1m is really a small group of folks who are pretty senior.

also it's fucking hard to be a really good programmer in a way that getting a 180 and grinding at biglaw are not

No it’s not. You can get a 160 and do decently in law school then you can code. It’s just as much a matter of grind as law

Is your post missing an “if”? Hilariously on point if so. In any event I was a full-time programmer for a few years before realizing I didn’t have the particular type of cognitive abilities required to be very good at it, so I gunned the LSAT until I got a 180 and am now a biglaw mid level. What experience are you drawing on?

[Anonymous User]

Time for Chadwalader to SHATTER the market with a re-raise. I predict the new CWT scale will be:

2021: 215,500
2020: 227,925
2019: 258,888
2018: 300,000 (except Charlotte office, which will go back down to 250,000)
2017: 342,042
2016: 350,501
2015: 392,000
2014+: One *million* dollars

[Anonymous User]

SDEs at google with a one year online masters or bootcamp certificate who work 9-5 for 5 days a week are making 300k nowadays. Why shouldn’t lawyers get paid more?

A lot more students will just choose Leetcode over the LSAT.

Even the worst junior NBA players make 950k and that doesn’t include per diems when traveling and free food that is provided, plus they get a few days off each week and months off each year. Why would anyone go to law school?

Nice.

I do think people have a very skewed idea of what most SWEs/SDEs at Google make. $300k TC isn’t realistic until a few years out, and even then, nearly half is equity that vests in 4 years. There are threads with Google engineers that discuss this.

And the $700k-$1m is really a small group of folks who are pretty senior.

also it's fucking hard to be a really good programmer in a way that getting a 180 and grinding at biglaw are not

No it’s not. You can get a 160 and do decently in law school then you can code. It’s just as much a matter of grind as law

Is your post missing an “if”? Hilariously on point if so. In any event I was a full-time programmer for a few years before realizing I didn’t have the particular type of cognitive abilities required to be very good at it, so I gunned the LSAT until I got a 180 and am now a biglaw mid level. What experience are you drawing on?

If intentional=true then kudos. Else LOL.

Anyway, this whole stupid argument has been hashed out already: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=311955&hilit=code.

I'm in IP lit with a tech background and can assure you that even among the grinding YHS types, there are few who would have made it to the $300k+ programmer rung (unless they went the successful startup from the ground floor -> acquisition by FAANG route). If they could just understand the code with a quick bootcamp then I would literally be out of a job. My friends who made it to those kickass programming gigs were ridiculously good programmers who nailed their substantive interviews.

[Anonymous User]

I hope no one rounds up. $396.5k is a legitimately hilarious number.

Well that is the point. It’s a brilliant move. DPW throws about ten thousand (not an insignificant amount of money) more to become a “market leader” like everyone has expected. But DPW then leaves the door open with that awkward number that could easily be rounded up. If any firm does round up, that’s the counter match. It’s the equivalent of DPW saying: “please stop but also take this easy out.”

The timing sent a clear message: Milbank is not a peer in preftige.

The amount said: our attorneys aren't leaving to go to Milbank already, and certainly not for less money.

Some other poster already said it, the fight was never over entry level compensation. It was over mid-level talent. Why waste more money raising junior associate salaries?

Yeah this is all evidence that Milbank is a TTT firm

[Anonymous User]

WSJ and other mainstream outlets covered the last salary bump because it hit a milestone: first-years broke $200k. DPW had a chance to break $400k for seniors and probably get similar coverage, and they came just short of it. Really weird.

[peoplearehungry]

Do we need to change the thread title to "Three hundred ninety-six thousand five hundred"

Three hundred ninety-six thousand five hundred dollars.
Three hundred ninety-six thousand five hundred dollars to bank.
Three hundred ninety-six thousand five hundred dollars.
How do you measure a year at the firm?
In all-nighters?
In mark-ups?
In redlines?
In meeting invites?
In pounds?
In tears?
In screams?
In thx?
In, three hundred ninety-six thousand five hundred dollars.
How do you measure a year at the firm?

[Anonymous User]

This thread was better when we were talking about school prestige. Also S >>>>>>> Harvard UniversiTTTy, no cap

Why we even comparing Harvard to S when the only discussions it deserves are Chicago Columbia and NYU. H had never been much more selective than Uchi/CLS, and now their outcomes are also in the same tier with Uchi even having a slight edge. It’s clearly YS with an enormous gap with the rest of the schools at this point. It’s only the Harvard kids who wont shut up about “YSH”

Lmao at UChi having an "edge" in outcomes over H

[Anonymous User]

WSJ and other mainstream outlets covered the last salary bump because it hit a milestone: first-years broke $200k. DPW had a chance to break $400k for seniors and probably get similar coverage, and they came just short of it. Really weird.

396.5k for working 365 days a year. There could a play on numbers somewhere there.

It could be that DPW is making a statement that it's not a final salary scale, but challenging other firms to round up or one-up it. I'm looking at you, Milbank. It's a salary war.

[Anonymous User]

Kirkland match/true up, eff Mar 15

[cfcm]

Not sure I accept the premise that DPW wants to end up in the WSJ for compensation-related reasons.

[Anonymous User]

Do we need to change the thread title to "Three hundred ninety-six thousand five hundred"

Three hundred ninety-six thousand five hundred dollars.
Three hundred ninety-six thousand five hundred dollars to bank.
Three hundred ninety-six thousand five hundred dollars.
How do you measure a year at the firm?
In all-nighters?
In mark-ups?
In redlines?
In meeting invites?
In pounds?
In tears?
In screams?
In thx?
In, three hundred ninety-six thousand five hundred dollars.
How do you measure a year at the firm?

*applause*

[Anonymous User]

K&E match

[Anonymous User]

Kirkland match/true up, eff Mar 15

I really thought they’d round up the weird DPW numbers. Hopefully someone else does - oh well.

Anyway, to all you dummies who spent pages and pages insisting that the V10 wouldn’t match: told ya so. No fucking way would Kirkland ever NOT match.

[Anonymous User]

Kirkland match/true up, eff Mar 15

I really thought they’d round up the weird DPW numbers. Hopefully someone else does - oh well.

Anyway, to all you dummies who spent pages and pages insisting that the V10 wouldn’t match: told ya so. No fucking way would Kirkland ever NOT match.

Uh so like the two (probably law school students) people on here who were afraid their V10s wouldn't match? Lmao. You're so self impressed.

[Anonymous User]

Kirkland match/true up, eff Mar 15

And with that (and a few other soon-to-be-matchers), the previous 70 pages of this thread acting like v10 firms were losing any preftige or sway whatsoever are null and void.

[TigerIsBack]

Kirkland match/true up, eff Mar 15

I really thought they’d round up the weird DPW numbers. Hopefully someone else does - oh well.

Anyway, to all you dummies who spent pages and pages insisting that the V10 wouldn’t match: told ya so. No fucking way would Kirkland ever NOT match.

Uh so like the two (probably law school students) people on here who were afraid their V10s wouldn't match? Lmao. You're so self impressed.

No one said they wouldn't. Almost every comment said people thought they would, but that we were so far outside of the realm of what's normal that it wasn't obvious, and wouldn't be obvious if the silence continued through May for purposes of calling the true up a special bonus as some people were asserting.

But solid strawman argument nonetheless.