NY GOES TO 180k! IT HAPPENED!!!! (CovingTTTon does a 180! Holder wept.) Forum

[star fox]

NYC not gonna go up till T14 T13grads start turning down NYC firms for secondary market firms, and since law students are prestige whores and NYC firms have their shitty Vault list, that'll never happen.

A lot of people I know did just this at GULC, and plenty of them aren't staying in DC either. I think this is definitely a trend here.

Some Milbank partners who were doing a presentation here were even saying that it's frustrating how many laterals they lose to secondary markets.

Secondary markets just aren't big enough to really threaten NYC. People don't go to NY because of some misguided perception of prestige, they go because that's where the jerbs are. There's a reason why bid NYC is common OCS advice, and it's not because OCS's across the T14 think NYC is just the awesomest.

A little of A and a little of B. There are definitely people here who worship the V10. You see it on TLS a lot.

[PeanutsNJam]

It's also not like people who go to NYC all struck out in SF/Chi/DC/LA/Dallas or even Denver/Richmond level cities. It's not like NYC firms get the bottom of the barrel non-NYC market strike-outs, and they should given the salary/CoL ratio.

I guess the ratio in SF is just as shitty in NYC but I hear the quality of life in SF is still much better.

[Anonymous User]

It's also not like people who go to NYC all struck out in SF/Chi/DC/LA/Dallas or even Denver/Richmond level cities. It's not like NYC firms get the bottom of the barrel non-NYC market strike-outs, and they should given the salary/CoL ratio.

I guess the ratio in SF is just as shitty in NYC but I hear the quality of life in SF is still much better.

At Chicago NYC firms definitely struggle a bit. Cravath hired down to median. Lots of people see it as too cutthroat and high-COL to be worth it. Pretty much every other city you list (except Richmond, nobody went there, although personally I think Richmond is lovely, and $160k is a thing there now) had a lot of top people going to it who could have gone to NYC.

[WestOfTheRest]

If top candidates chose DC/Chicago/SF over NYC in large enough numbers, that's enough to pressure them.

Not that I disagree with you, but why would top candidates choose SF over NYC?

*There are plenty of reasons why they would, but for the purposes of this discussion the only one that matters is COL and SF is arguably more expensive than NYC.

[dabigchina]

If top candidates chose DC/Chicago/SF over NYC in large enough numbers, that's enough to pressure them.

Not that I disagree with you, but why would top candidates choose SF over NYC?

*There are plenty of reasons why they would, but for the purposes of this discussion the only one that matters is COL and SF is arguably more expensive than NYC.

This is firm by firm, but from what I've heard the working conditions are much more humane in SV than in NYC.

[Desert Fox]

NYC not gonna go up till T14 T13grads start turning down NYC firms for secondary market firms, and since law students are prestige whores and NYC firms have their shitty Vault list, that'll never happen.

A lot of people I know did just this at GULC, and plenty of them aren't staying in DC either. I think this is definitely a trend here.

Some Milbank partners who were doing a presentation here were even saying that it's frustrating how many laterals they lose to secondary markets.

Secondary markets just aren't big enough to really threaten NYC. People don't go to NY because of some misguided perception of prestige, they go because that's where the jerbs are. There's a reason why bid NYC is common OCS advice, and it's not because OCS's across the T14 think NYC is just the awesomest.

I think a lot of the secondary markets rely on midlevel + talent that was trained up by NYC biglaw. That way they don't have to mess around with less profitable juniors.

[WestOfTheRest]

If top candidates chose DC/Chicago/SF over NYC in large enough numbers, that's enough to pressure them.

Not that I disagree with you, but why would top candidates choose SF over NYC?

*There are plenty of reasons why they would, but for the purposes of this discussion the only one that matters is COL and SF is arguably more expensive than NYC.

This is firm by firm, but from what I've heard the working conditions are much more humane in SV than in NYC.

This ignores my point, which is that the only thing that matters for this argument is COL. SV has always had a better "work-life balance" (as much as that's possible in biglaw), but this hasn't driven people who would choose NY to SV in the past.

[dabigchina]

If top candidates chose DC/Chicago/SF over NYC in large enough numbers, that's enough to pressure them.

Not that I disagree with you, but why would top candidates choose SF over NYC?

*There are plenty of reasons why they would, but for the purposes of this discussion the only one that matters is COL and SF is arguably more expensive than NYC.

This is firm by firm, but from what I've heard the working conditions are much more humane in SV than in NYC.

This ignores my point, which is that the only thing that matters for this argument is COL. SV has always had a better "work-life balance" (as much as that's possible in biglaw), but this hasn't driven people who would choose NY to SV in the past.

Your argument is that no top candidates will be willing to forego NYC preftige for better QOL at the same compensation level?

[Johann]

Exactly reframe COL as wage/hour. I don't buy Silicon Valley people work less than NYC but if they do, wage/ur should control in the same way COL does.

[WestOfTheRest]

Your argument is that no top candidates will be willing to forego NYC preftige for better QOL at the same compensation level?

My point is a bit more nuanced than that. Since the pay has been the same for ~15 years and the QOL differences have (presumably) always been there, then the only tangible difference is COL (as Johann points out, earnings/hour should play a role, but arguably this has already been built into the stasis that exists). Therefore, top talent are not going to flock to SF where COL has increased commensurate (or more) with NY.

That being said, I'm just arguing semantics at this point, because it's not going to be pressure from SF that pushes NY firms, but rather pressure from secondary markets (if it happens at all).

[CG614]

Has this happened yet?

[kcdc1]

The most plausible source of pressure is rising salaries for IH positions. Would be nice if more companies followed the HP route of hiring and training entry-level attorneys.

[Anonymous User]

The only remaining question is who will lead the charge: http://abovethelaw.com/2016/05/ny-to-19 ... arge/?rf=1

[Mr. Blackacre]

The only remaining question is who will lead the charge: http://abovethelaw.com/2016/05/ny-to-19 ... arge/?rf=1

That article is pure clickbait, even by ATL standards. Fuck David Lat.

[crib]

The most plausible source of pressure is rising salaries for IH positions.

This. It's ridiculous how much IH salaries have increased in the last 10 years. No one even wants to try to make partner at law firms any more.

[Bach-City]

.

[1styearlateral]

Given how much rent is probably going to be, you can probably rule out any firm moving to Hudson Yards as the first firm to make the increase to 190.

[PennBull]

If top candidates chose DC/Chicago/SF over NYC in large enough numbers, that's enough to pressure them.

Not that I disagree with you, but why would top candidates choose SF over NYC?

*There are plenty of reasons why they would, but for the purposes of this discussion the only one that matters is COL and SF is arguably more expensive than NYC.

This is firm by firm, but from what I've heard the working conditions are much more humane in SV than in NYC.

This is horseshit, HTH

[TLSModBot]

If top candidates chose DC/Chicago/SF over NYC in large enough numbers, that's enough to pressure them.

Not that I disagree with you, but why would top candidates choose SF over NYC?

*There are plenty of reasons why they would, but for the purposes of this discussion the only one that matters is COL and SF is arguably more expensive than NYC.

This is firm by firm, but from what I've heard the working conditions are much more humane in SV than in NYC.

This is horseshit, HTH

Nah man, SV is way more "humane" than NYC. NYC biglaw puts every lawyer in tiny cages; they can barely turn their heads it's so cramped. SV features predominantly free-range attorneys. Just note that, as with eggs, "free-range" does not necessarily mean "cruelty-free".

[TheoO]

If top candidates chose DC/Chicago/SF over NYC in large enough numbers, that's enough to pressure them.

Not that I disagree with you, but why would top candidates choose SF over NYC?

*There are plenty of reasons why they would, but for the purposes of this discussion the only one that matters is COL and SF is arguably more expensive than NYC.

This is firm by firm, but from what I've heard the working conditions are much more humane in SV than in NYC.

This is horseshit, HTH

Nah man, SV is way more "humane" than NYC. NYC biglaw puts every lawyer in tiny cages; they can barely turn their heads it's so cramped. SV features predominantly free-range attorneys. Just note that, as with eggs, "free-range" does not necessarily mean "cruelty-free".

You get to be casual and wear jeans. They are free-wheelin, do your own thing, CA-style life. Not like those stuffy ny finance types, man!

[dixiecupdrinking]

Seems like SV would be all of the work of NY plus pressure to act like you're not miserable, which sounds like the worst.

[glitched]

http://abovethelaw.com/2016/05/biglaw-f ... late/?rf=1

[PeanutsNJam]

Other than prestige, why do people choose to bill 2.5k at Cravath over 1.9k-2.2k at any other market/firm combo for the same pay (with marginally more bonus)? Exit options? ~practice group rank~? Is it even worth it?

[TheoO]

There is a common perception that you should start your career at a top nyc firm and then move to a secondary market.

[Tiago Splitter]

Other than prestige, why do people choose to bill 2.5k at Cravath over 1.9k-2.2k at any other market/firm combo for the same pay (with marginally more bonus)? Exit options? ~practice group rank~? Is it even worth it?

I don't think it's worth it but hours are ridiculously hard to predict.