Houston OCI, Callbacks, Offers Forum

[Anonymous User]

The amount of hardcoreness in this thread is impressive. Me, I got one exactly offer from a band 4 corporate firm (albeit market-paying). Didn't know the difference between M&A and A&M the day I started, much less all this PE vs. capital markets, upper vs middle vs lower middle, & all the acronyms. Pre-2014 it was so much simpler, you got an offer from one of the big 3 and you were done. The market is so dynamic now, it's hard to say whether precise planning will actually mean anything since in two years time no one knows how the market will look, or whether being at X vs Y firm will lead to a more fulfilling career. I think once you all start, you'll realize that for at least your first few years, you'll be doing the same grunt work no matter where you are, and that the perceived differences between practice groups, types of clients, prestige, etc. all just add up to the same long hours and grind.

In re the bolded point - the Texas “big three” isn’t really a thing anymore, is it? It seems that V&E and Baker Botts have far outpaced every other local firm in the state.

[Neff]

The amount of hardcoreness in this thread is impressive. Me, I got one exactly offer from a band 4 corporate firm (albeit market-paying). Didn't know the difference between M&A and A&M the day I started, much less all this PE vs. capital markets, upper vs middle vs lower middle, & all the acronyms. Pre-2014 it was so much simpler, you got an offer from one of the big 3 and you were done. The market is so dynamic now, it's hard to say whether precise planning will actually mean anything since in two years time no one knows how the market will look, or whether being at X vs Y firm will lead to a more fulfilling career. I think once you all start, you'll realize that for at least your first few years, you'll be doing the same grunt work no matter where you are, and that the perceived differences between practice groups, types of clients, prestige, etc. all just add up to the same long hours and grind.

In re the bolded point - the Texas “big three” isn’t really a thing anymore, is it? It seems that V&E and Baker Botts have far outpaced every other local firm in the state.

Correct. (1) Fulbright/NRF is no longer one of the big three given their dumb insistence on doubling down on the less profitable litigation practices, and (2) the influx of out-of-state firms along with resulting raids on V&E and BB has upended the scene.

[Anonymous User]

Not to hijack the above poster's discussion, but I am in a similar decision but on the transactional side. Really don't know how to decide, don't really care about prestige, and worry a little bit about culture and wonder if its defensible to pick a satellite office over Kirkland and V&E. No Latham offer yet but not really long enough to say for sure that I didn't get an offer so would appreciate opinions about them as well.

Totally depends which satellites we’re talking about. Certainly not crazy to pick Sidley or Willkie (though most people probably wouldn’t), but it would probably be crazy to pick a White & Case or Skadden.

Willkie is pretty much the main firm I'm considering besides VE/KE, although I also really liked the partners from Simpson. I'm with you on White & Case or Skadden, declined an offer from one of them or a similarly situated firm. I'm just incredibly torn otherwise.

Why? Look at the difference in how a K&E or Sidley has gained traction in the H, while Willkie is...well, Willkie and has had some Matt Schaub-like turnover problems. You have to be very careful in picking the right satellite office if that’s the path you go. Recommend V&E then K&E then Sidley.

God damnit, I haven't thought about Matt Schaub in a while but that metaphor totally speaks to me. I guess in regards to K&E specifically, I sometimes worry about the culture with some of the negative things you hear (especially in real life...I use more caution with what I hear on TLS). I know some of it is just rumors. I don't particularly care about prestige, although I of course want to be work hard and be busy doing good work at a healthy firm. I sort of liked the smaller environment of the satellite offices and enjoyed the people/really felt good after those callbacks and any subsequent things I've done with people from the office... but maybe I'm just looking at it through glasses that are too tinted with all the anti-K&E comments.

Respectfully, this is your own career you’re talking about. Don’t let negative recruiting from firms with obvious biases and agendas dictate your choices. Kirkland is not all sunshine and rainbows, but it is massive, unprecedented success in this market that has brought out that type of recruitment strategy.

Would you let political attack ads be the last word in helping you choose a candidate? Hopefully, if they raised a concern for you, the next step would be to do your own research.

Right now, you have a unique opportunity to make a decision that is going to affect the next few years of your life, with ripples all down the rest of your career. Do the diligence, make the calls, go for second looks. Look up deal statistics, ask to speak to senior partners.

I do have to ask: what exactly are these “negative” things about KE? People on this thread just sort of do a drive by on them without really expanding. What exactly are we talking about here? They work a lot? Lots of lawyers do. They aren’t nice people? Lots of lawyers aren’t. It sounds like people are just mad that they’ve done well tbh. I’m just genuinely curious.

[Anonymous User]

Not to hijack the above poster's discussion, but I am in a similar decision but on the transactional side. Really don't know how to decide, don't really care about prestige, and worry a little bit about culture and wonder if its defensible to pick a satellite office over Kirkland and V&E. No Latham offer yet but not really long enough to say for sure that I didn't get an offer so would appreciate opinions about them as well.

Totally depends which satellites we’re talking about. Certainly not crazy to pick Sidley or Willkie (though most people probably wouldn’t), but it would probably be crazy to pick a White & Case or Skadden.

Willkie is pretty much the main firm I'm considering besides VE/KE, although I also really liked the partners from Simpson. I'm with you on White & Case or Skadden, declined an offer from one of them or a similarly situated firm. I'm just incredibly torn otherwise.

Why? Look at the difference in how a K&E or Sidley has gained traction in the H, while Willkie is...well, Willkie and has had some Matt Schaub-like turnover problems. You have to be very careful in picking the right satellite office if that’s the path you go. Recommend V&E then K&E then Sidley.

God damnit, I haven't thought about Matt Schaub in a while but that metaphor totally speaks to me. I guess in regards to K&E specifically, I sometimes worry about the culture with some of the negative things you hear (especially in real life...I use more caution with what I hear on TLS). I know some of it is just rumors. I don't particularly care about prestige, although I of course want to be work hard and be busy doing good work at a healthy firm. I sort of liked the smaller environment of the satellite offices and enjoyed the people/really felt good after those callbacks and any subsequent things I've done with people from the office... but maybe I'm just looking at it through glasses that are too tinted with all the anti-K&E comments.

Respectfully, this is your own career you’re talking about. Don’t let negative recruiting from firms with obvious biases and agendas dictate your choices. Kirkland is not all sunshine and rainbows, but it is massive, unprecedented success in this market that has brought out that type of recruitment strategy.

Would you let political attack ads be the last word in helping you choose a candidate? Hopefully, if they raised a concern for you, the next step would be to do your own research.

Right now, you have a unique opportunity to make a decision that is going to affect the next few years of your life, with ripples all down the rest of your career. Do the diligence, make the calls, go for second looks. Look up deal statistics, ask to speak to senior partners.

I do have to ask: what exactly are these “negative” things about KE? People on this thread just sort of do a drive by on them without really expanding. What exactly are we talking about here? They work a lot? Lots of lawyers do. They aren’t nice people? Lots of lawyers aren’t. It sounds like people are just mad that they’ve done well tbh. I’m just genuinely curious.

I totally agree with people being mad that they've done well—I get that feeling sometimes when people from other firms talk about Kirkland. And I'm with you on how a lot of those things, like brutal hours, can apply across the board. I'll hear things like, you know, my friend works there and he works so much worse hours than people at X firm and that it's a sweatshop. Or that some associate feels like he can really come to partners or senior associates at his firm with questions and gets a good balance between support and hand-holding, but his friends at Kirkland feel like they can never ask any sort of a question and are just getting crushed by everything. It's a lot things that could apply to any firm or practice group or partner, but it feels like a lot of people like to act like its so much worse at Kirkland, ya know? The Kirkland associates I've talked to have been wonderful about answering any questions and addressing things, though.

[Neff]

The Kirkland thing is 50% jealousy and 50% based on shit (or rumors of shit) that went down when they first opened shop in Houston. In that first couple years, there were rumors of a near mutiny by the associates due to psycho partners (one of whom got "deported" to another office), summers who split at K&E and us would tell of ridiculous stuff that Kirkland partners would say at their SA dinners (bragging about how rich they are with zero regard for social decorum, that type of thing), partners sleeping with each other (involving a very prominent partner). In short, in the first couple years, it seemed to be a wild wild west sort of place, with so many slanderous rumors flying around that it was hard to separate truth from fiction. I knew of 1st years there who got chewed up/spat out and were gone in less than two years, but no way to know whether that was deserved.

THEN, after circa 2016, I started hearing that the office cleaned up its act. It had also grown large enough where it accumulated a more diverse array of personalities and the HR issues got sorted out. So I'm inclined to think any issues are behind them now. It's up to the individual student to do their homework and meet as many people as they can at each firm to decide if the culture is right for them.

[Anonymous User]

In doing your diligence among the firms here, please consider:
1. How much one client provides business. It's typically bad for one client to provide a relatively high portion of work; if something were to happen to the client or the relationship, then workflow may be altered. You should also do your diligence on what it's like to work for that specific big client, and how that client treats its lawyers relative to any other client. For example, if one particular Houston office does a good amount of work for Private Equity Client B, you should really drill down on how much of the work is with such client, and what it's like to work with Private Equity Client X.
2. Diversity of work. Considering asking if the firm is heavily reliant on private equity firms, corporates / strategics, banks, etc. If a firm is heavily reliant on banks and does primarily financing work, consider if that will affect your calculus. Similar, if a firm does mostly work with PE firms, consider how that will condense the transaction deal cycle and the type of work that flows from that (e.g., if you do finance, then you'll be doing primarily sponsor-side financings which may limit your growth and experience).
3. Attrition. Consider drilling down into whether there is any burnout of associates at the firms that you are considering. Best way to consider this is to see if there is a high level of attribution relative to peer firms. You may also want to find out why particular associates are leaving.
4. Leverage Ratio. Do your own math, and figure out what the actual leverage ratio is of non-partners to partners at particular offices. There are different factors that derive from high or low leverage ratios, but higher level ratios typically mean that a higher attrition rate is included in their firm growth calculations. In addition, any such offices with high leverage ratios may be more exposed to any downturns, all things being equal.
5. Reputation and Diligence. Consider asking other attorneys around town about what it is like to work across from the firm. Consider also asking what they think it would be to start at such firm. Please also ask individuals who have left the firm; they have less of an incentive to upsell the experience and will tell it like it is. Do not simply ask the attorneys at the firms you are considering. It actually may be helpful to discuss those who have left one firm and went to the other and ask them why they left. If you're considering between two biglaw firms, say, a national firm like KE and an indigenous firm like Porter Hedges, and are leaning towards Porter Hedges, consider asking a KE attorney who left Porter Hedges (and vice versa) for a well-balanced perspective.

[Anonymous User]

One follow-up suggested diligence question:
In terms of diligence regarding hours, consider asking "softer" questions but really drill down hard after you get offers. Ask how many hours the top billers at such offices bill. At one office, it may be that the top billers may bill 2500 hours, and at another firm it could be over 3000 hours. Keep in mind that any incremental hours over 2000 could start bleeding into (i) evening time, (ii) weekend time and worst of all, (iii) sleep. Ask if the compensation structure or culture incentives high billables. If you're willing to bill over 2500 hours, great. If you have a family, want to date or want to survive BigLaw long term, think twice about going to a place that objectively may have harsher hours than its biglaw peers.

[Anonymous User]

If you're considering between two biglaw firms, say, a national firm like KE and an indigenous firm like Porter Hedges, and are leaning towards Porter Hedges, consider asking a KE attorney who left Porter Hedges (and vice versa) for a well-balanced perspective.

I can think of virtually no scenario in which going to Porter Hedges over KE is justified. Porter Hedges is not even really “biglaw.”

[Anonymous User]

In doing your diligence among the firms here, please consider
<snip>

Great, even-handed advice. Thank you. Thanks also for the follow-up on diligence.

In place of Porter Hedges, insert [name of whichever other firm you're considering]. Best conversations I had in the past weeks (as a 2L) was with folks who left firm A and moved to firm B, and those who moved from B to A. There's a lot of life experience and careful decision making that goes into (and comes out of) those scenarios. I found it particularly refreshing that people seldom, if ever, speak negatively of their old firm and former colleagues. Houston is a very fluid market and professionalism is at a premium.

By contrast, I can't shake off the sense that a large chunk of non-student posters in this thread are most likely junior associates who've only worked at firm A a couple of years, and display all the usual linguistic symptoms of cognitive dissonance. It's entertaining to read (though it gets repetitive fast) but is of limited heuristic use if taken at face value.

[Anonymous User]

—

[Anonymous User]

Does anybody know KE (lit) turnaround time? Thanks in advance.

[Anonymous User]

Does anybody know KE (lit) turnaround time? Thanks in advance.

Mine was under 24 hours.

[Anonymous User]

6 cbs over the last two weeks (mainly last week), have yet to hear anything from anyone. I know at least 4/6 of the firms have sent offers/rejections already. Is this normal for Houston?

[Anonymous User]

6 cbs over the last two weeks (mainly last week), have yet to hear anything from anyone. I know at least 4/6 of the firms have sent offers/rejections already. Is this normal for Houston?

No. There's probably a mix of firms waiting for others to turn down offers and being slow to get to rejection letters.

[Anonymous User]

what have offer rates been like recently for firms like AK/Hayboo/Bracewell

[Anonymous User]

what have offer rates been like recently for firms like AK/Hayboo/Bracewell

Can only speak to HAK. Summer 2017 was a bad look, ~70% I believe. But it was due to some summers truly not caring about work product and others having huge grade drops (into the 2's). 100% offer in 2018, and that is the goal and expectation moving forward.

[Anonymous User]

6 cbs over the last two weeks (mainly last week), have yet to hear anything from anyone. I know at least 4/6 of the firms have sent offers/rejections already. Is this normal for Houston?

No. There's probably a mix of firms waiting for others to turn down offers and being slow to get to rejection letters.

I'd say it's normal for this time of the year. School starts this week. The 28 day window for pre-OCI offers (dated to end of OCI) expires next week. You can expect to see a lot of movement as firms fill their summer slots. (Speaking as someone who decided this week and turned down four other offers, having already turned down three more last week.) On top of that, my school has a second season of OCI in a few weeks to enable firms and students take a second look at one another.

[Anonymous User]

STB offer today!

[Anonymous User]

JD v. Bracewell? (I have other offers from the big Houston firms but am really interested in hearing about these two)

[Anonymous User]

JD v. Bracewell? (I have other offers from the big Houston firms but am really interested in hearing about these two)

Don't know too much about Bracewell but I've heard that JD is really struggling in Houston. I've heard their Dallas office is considerably stronger. JD is a national firm that almost always has a 100% offer rate, but they no offered 2 of 4 summers in Houston last year. Re: Bracewell, the fact that Houston is its HQ is probably a plus.

[Anonymous User]

JD v. Bracewell? (I have other offers from the big Houston firms but am really interested in hearing about these two)

Bracewell.

Bracewell is a great name in Texas and it is a much bigger office (and a home office). There will be more exit ops by virtue of its size and reputation. They will do more types of work. The culture is better. And the comp is better. Not a close call at all imo.

[Anonymous User]

JD v. Bracewell? (I have other offers from the big Houston firms but am really interested in hearing about these two)

If by “big Houston firms” you mean BB or VE, take either of those over JD or Bracewell

[Anonymous User]

JD v. Bracewell? (I have other offers from the big Houston firms but am really interested in hearing about these two)

If by “big Houston firms” you mean BB or VE, take either of those over JD or Bracewell

V&E, but I'm very litigation focused and attracted to the ability to get substantive lit experience early on. Doesn't seem like that opportunity is as available at V&E as it may be at Bracewell.

[Anonymous User]

JD v. Bracewell? (I have other offers from the big Houston firms but am really interested in hearing about these two)

Don't know too much about Bracewell but I've heard that JD is really struggling in Houston. I've heard their Dallas office is considerably stronger. JD is a national firm that almost always has a 100% offer rate, but they no offered 2 of 4 summers in Houston last year. Re: Bracewell, the fact that Houston is its HQ is probably a plus.

how have you heard they are struggling?

[Anonymous User]

JD v. Bracewell? (I have other offers from the big Houston firms but am really interested in hearing about these two)

Don't know too much about Bracewell but I've heard that JD is really struggling in Houston. I've heard their Dallas office is considerably stronger. JD is a national firm that almost always has a 100% offer rate, but they no offered 2 of 4 summers in Houston last year. Re: Bracewell, the fact that Houston is its HQ is probably a plus.

I would avoid JD Houston at all costs. Go to Bracewell.