Lawyers tell you how to get no offered. Forum

[Anonymous User]

Biglaw associate here.

I know at least one summer associate who was no-offered because she was too hot. This is not a joke. Our hiring partner at the time was female, and I heard from someone on the hiring committee that she was annoyed at the disparity between this particular associate's performance reviews from male partners as opposed to female partners. (The reviews from males were all stellar; the ones from females were mixed.) She thought the males were trying to get her hired simply because she was hot. Result: ding.

[seespotrun]

Biglaw associate here.

I know at least one summer associate who was no-offered because she was too hot. This is not a joke. Our hiring partner at the time was female, and I heard from someone on the hiring committee that she was annoyed at the disparity between this particular associate's performance reviews from male partners as opposed to female partners. (The reviews from males were all stellar; the ones from females were mixed.) She thought the males were trying to get her hired simply because she was hot. Result: ding.

what a shrew

[rpupkin]

Biglaw associate here.

I know at least one summer associate who was no-offered because she was too hot. This is not a joke. Our hiring partner at the time was female, and I heard from someone on the hiring committee that she was annoyed at the disparity between this particular associate's performance reviews from male partners as opposed to female partners. (The reviews from males were all stellar; the ones from females were mixed.) She thought the males were trying to get her hired simply because she was hot. Result: ding.

Let this be a lesson to all you hotties out there: gain 15 pounds during 2L spring semester, lose the make-up, and buy some unflattering clothing. In fact, you can kill two birds with one stone by wearing boat shoes to work everyday.

[rayiner]

My only experience is from business/~70 person firm, so again I defer to you guys for biglaw, but IME just showing up to things is like, 10-50% of success. I don't think the point of going to any social event is to know every fucking anybody, but having people know you (even if you haven't produced anything for them) and sharing small talk over some beers is (as long as you aren't an idiot about it) always at the least a net neutral and at best a net positive.

I mean, aren't you people who have been out a few years a member of any professional or charitable boards? Sure, helping good causes and developing professionally is cool and all, but everybody knows that's not the point of getting on those boards.

But maybe I just am more socially inclined than others, because I almost always manage to have a good time at these events I find myself pressured to go to and I know for some people these types of small-talk laced events are like pulling teeth.

When I was an engineer, I went schmoozing with clients every now and then, and that was great. Kicking back a few beers on the company dime over korean BBQ. That's not at all what an SA event is like.

Networking at a summer event is a really low-yield exercise. Effective networking means meeting people with whom you could engage in mutually beneficial transactions. As an SA, you have nothing to offer other SA's. You're all just a bunch of people at some even, who don't want to be there, with crushing debt, hoping to get an offer. Even if one of your fellow SA's goes on to be GC somewhere important, you're not going to make a connection at an SA event more meaningful than "hey, weren't we in the same summer class?" Everyone is too scared shitless to have a personality, and everyone is trying to blend in and be forgettable. It's also not a good place to make friends, for the same reason.

I should note, the people at my firm were mostly great people. The setting just sucks the life out of you.

I was at a firm with 100+ SA's and got a great review when I received my offer. Obviously the firm didn't care. t wouldn't do the same thing at a firm that wasn't known for giving 100% offers, or one with a smaller class. Nor am I encouraging you not to go to SA events. I just think they're a stupid part of this whole glorification of big law. 2L SA's come back, chat about whose firm had the better events or comped more meals, and law students go another year without properly appreciating the magnitude of the life-career tradeoff they're about to make.

[hichvichwoh]

If we're talking about work tips (i.e., non of this is no offer stuff, but is the diff between making associates happy and having them roll their eyes)

1) dont ask questions piecemeal. Drives everyone nuts. Nothing wrong with questions, but collect them and then swing by my office when you have a bunch we can knock out in one quick meeting.

2) don't spin your wheels. If you're totally stumped or confused, tell whoever is supervising you. Don't bang your head against the computer for 2 days.

3) don't make emails excessively formal. Sometimes a formal email is expected. If I give you a research assignment and 3 days to do it, the email response should be VERY clean and well written. But if I call you at 4 and say " hey fire drill here can you check this for us ASAP?" then speed is paramount and be short and quick and not "dear x, the law of fiduciary duty was first promulgated in 1743 by The Lord Justice . . . "

4) I have never seen a summer memo or email that wasn't too long. YOUR EMAIL IS TOO LONG. ALWAYS. Take whatever your LS instincts tell you, and make it 50% shorter. Especially if working with corporate folks. Short, clean, to the point.

5) If your memo or email cites to a case or article, then that case or article should be attached to your email.

6) do not work in track changes unless specifically instructed to do so. Old partners get to work in track changes. You do not, generally.

7) When sending me a doc past 8PM, if you know I am on an iPad it's a nice gesture to send a PDF as well. Not necessary but often appreciated. Blacklines should always be in PDF at all hours unless instructed otherwise.

particulaly in corporate practice, familiarize yourself with how to run blacklines (and other seemingly stupid tech stuff that has a learning curve) as soon as possible. Sooner you do that, sooner I can use you on my team as more than decoration. I don't want you having your first experience with our bug-ridden blacklining program at 11:30pm when the documents need to get out.

9) if I give you a precedent to work from for your assignment, save it as the first version of the document so you can always blackline to it. Do not enter any changes in that first version; save your changes as a new version. This tip will make way more sense once you've dealt with firm document management systems.

10). Take copious notes on any call or internal meeting you're invited to sit in on, unless instructed OK not to. But ask first before taking notes if external in person meeting, bc sometimes it can send wrong impression to other parties at meeting.

11) always put a draft line and a document ID footer on every document you draft. It should be the first thing you do. People will grumble if you forget a draft line. It's like not zipping your fly.

Upcoming SA here, so sorry about stupid questions. But what is this blacklining, document ID footer, draft line thing?

hey, this got buried a few pages back...does someone mind answering? I'm also kinda freaking out about not having any idea what any of those terms mean

[MarkRenton]

If we're talking about work tips (i.e., non of this is no offer stuff, but is the diff between making associates happy and having them roll their eyes)

1) dont ask questions piecemeal. Drives everyone nuts. Nothing wrong with questions, but collect them and then swing by my office when you have a bunch we can knock out in one quick meeting.

2) don't spin your wheels. If you're totally stumped or confused, tell whoever is supervising you. Don't bang your head against the computer for 2 days.

3) don't make emails excessively formal. Sometimes a formal email is expected. If I give you a research assignment and 3 days to do it, the email response should be VERY clean and well written. But if I call you at 4 and say " hey fire drill here can you check this for us ASAP?" then speed is paramount and be short and quick and not "dear x, the law of fiduciary duty was first promulgated in 1743 by The Lord Justice . . . "

4) I have never seen a summer memo or email that wasn't too long. YOUR EMAIL IS TOO LONG. ALWAYS. Take whatever your LS instincts tell you, and make it 50% shorter. Especially if working with corporate folks. Short, clean, to the point.

5) If your memo or email cites to a case or article, then that case or article should be attached to your email.

6) do not work in track changes unless specifically instructed to do so. Old partners get to work in track changes. You do not, generally.

7) When sending me a doc past 8PM, if you know I am on an iPad it's a nice gesture to send a PDF as well. Not necessary but often appreciated. Blacklines should always be in PDF at all hours unless instructed otherwise.

particulaly in corporate practice, familiarize yourself with how to run blacklines (and other seemingly stupid tech stuff that has a learning curve) as soon as possible. Sooner you do that, sooner I can use you on my team as more than decoration. I don't want you having your first experience with our bug-ridden blacklining program at 11:30pm when the documents need to get out.

9) if I give you a precedent to work from for your assignment, save it as the first version of the document so you can always blackline to it. Do not enter any changes in that first version; save your changes as a new version. This tip will make way more sense once you've dealt with firm document management systems.

10). Take copious notes on any call or internal meeting you're invited to sit in on, unless instructed OK not to. But ask first before taking notes if external in person meeting, bc sometimes it can send wrong impression to other parties at meeting.

11) always put a draft line and a document ID footer on every document you draft. It should be the first thing you do. People will grumble if you forget a draft line. It's like not zipping your fly.

Upcoming SA here, so sorry about stupid questions. But what is this blacklining, document ID footer, draft line thing?

hey, this got buried a few pages back...does someone mind answering? I'm also kinda freaking out about not having any idea what any of those terms mean

I wouldn't worry about this too much. If it's important, your firm will make it clear. My firm finds these important for associates to do but NEVER asks summers to do this. It's just asking summers to learn too many skills that they may need only for the summer, I guess.

But anyway. A blackline is a document that shows changes between the current and a previous version. For instance, if you work on a memo and save your progress each time as a new version, you can compare versions. It's called a blackline because it'll have lines striking through words that have been deleted and underlines under words that are newly added. This is particularly important in transactional work (and it's really not worth explaining why, but trust me).

EDIT: anonymous user here states that this isn't really no-offer stuff. He's right, but I don't think any of this, for most firms, is even expected of summers. Though all his advice is great advice for first years associates.

[hichvichwoh]

oh ok, thanks MarkRenton!

[mushybrain]

Disclaimer: haven't done my SA yet but have worked for firms and done extensive work on docs

Blacklining: document comparison that shows changes between versions. The software to do this is notoriously buggy and does stupid things, especially if you're bold enough to insert a table into a Word document.

Document ID: when you save files on the server, they are assigned document numbers like ########.#, with the first set of numbers being the doc ID and the number after the period being the version number. Most attorneys at the firms I worked at before school want these inserted in the doc itself (there will probably be a macro at your firm to do this automatically, or an option in a customized toolbar, or a box to check when you save, etc) because once the doc is printed you can easily figure out where the hell it is on the network. It's a way to keep track of paper copies of docs and identify what version is what.

Draft line: line in header saying the document is a draft so no one sees the print version and thinks it's the final one. IME, very common in transactional (you can imagine why) and not so much in lit.

[JusticeJackson]

.

[Sup Kid]

My two cents on the blacklining question (corporate associate in NYC biglaw):

1) No one expects you to know how to do it before you start.

2) Many associates won't bother to teach you as a summer (as others said, it takes some time to teach and that time can be better spent, especially in the middle of a deal, on the associate running the blackline on their own).

3) **If an associate takes the time to teach the program to you (I try to make it a point to go over it with any summer that will be on a full deal with me), make sure you take the time to a) pay attention, b) ask questions if you're confused, c) PRACTICE on your own until you get the hang of it and d) don't screw it up after you've confirmed to me you get it. If you don't get it, that's fine, just tell me and I can help you when I have time, but once you say you got it, you better own it. There is nothing I hate more than someone lying to me by saying they can do something, just to have them screw it up over and over while I waste time waiting for it. If you don't get it, just tell me, I won't care, but DO NOT waste my time. I'm busy.**

[09042014]

What the hell is so hard about blacklining?

[mushybrain]

Nothing, but for some reason the assistants I've worked with have done them the wrong direction ~80% of the time.

[09042014]

I only used it once when I forgot to use track changes, and it was super fucking easy.

[mushybrain]

When you actually read the dialog boxes and give it documents that are straightforward, amazing things happen.

[Anonymous User]

Best part of not being a summer: I skip all golf events and no longer give a single fuck

[MarkRenton]

What the hell is so hard about blacklining?

For some reason Microsoft Word doesn't just have a button that says blackline. You have to open up a whole program and go through a series of unnecessary steps. So, at first, it seems as if you're learning how to use adobe or some other program for the first time.

And I agree with associate above, if some associate does teach you to blackline, they probably expect you to do it right. But I imagine that it's rare to be taught this as a summer.

[El Pollito]

Blacklining is extremely straightforward.

[desertlaw]

Blacklining is great and awesome. You know what else is awesome? Making comments/edits to a PDF. Didn't know you could do that until I was like two weeks into being a 1st year associates. Awesome sauce.

[Orlandipo]

Blacklining is great and awesome. You know what else is awesome? Making comments/edits to a PDF. Didn't know you could do that until I was like two weeks into being a 1st year associates. Awesome sauce.

Adobe is a wonderfully unexplored world.

[rickgrimes69]

Blacklining is great and awesome. You know what else is awesome? Making comments/edits to a PDF. Didn't know you could do that until I was like two weeks into being a 1st year associates. Awesome sauce.

Adobe is a wonderfully unexplored world.

Truth. Most people don't have pro so the wealth of features it offers are largely unknown. But it's an awesome program.

[TelegramSam]

Agreed. I did not like the part where people I thought were friends and would spend time with outside of work no longer wanted to speak to me

This is shitty. I think people don't say hi because it's awkward for them too. They know they're part of an entity that screwed you. The better the candidate, the shittier they feel.

I make it a point to send job openings I find to the the dude our office no offered last year. On the few occassions hiring partners from other firms have called me to talk to me about lateraling, I turn it into a pitch for them to hire our former summer. He's a good guy and just screwed up 2-3 assignments for the wrong guys, which I guess undid an entire summer of solid work.

This is really awesome of you

[Caesar Salad]

Agreed. I did not like the part where people I thought were friends and would spend time with outside of work no longer wanted to speak to me

This is shitty. I think people don't say hi because it's awkward for them too. They know they're part of an entity that screwed you. The better the candidate, the shittier they feel.

I make it a point to send job openings I find to the the dude our office no offered last year. On the few occassions hiring partners from other firms have called me to talk to me about lateraling, I turn it into a pitch for them to hire our former summer. He's a good guy and just screwed up 2-3 assignments for the wrong guys, which I guess undid an entire summer of solid work.

This is really awesome of you

[84651846190]

Agreed. I did not like the part where people I thought were friends and would spend time with outside of work no longer wanted to speak to me

This is shitty. I think people don't say hi because it's awkward for them too. They know they're part of an entity that screwed you. The better the candidate, the shittier they feel.

I make it a point to send job openings I find to the the dude our office no offered last year. On the few occassions hiring partners from other firms have called me to talk to me about lateraling, I turn it into a pitch for them to hire our former summer. He's a good guy and just screwed up 2-3 assignments for the wrong guys, which I guess undid an entire summer of solid work.

180

[rad lulz]

Agreed. I did not like the part where people I thought were friends and would spend time with outside of work no longer wanted to speak to me

This is shitty. I think people don't say hi because it's awkward for them too. They know they're part of an entity that screwed you. The better the candidate, the shittier they feel.

I make it a point to send job openings I find to the the dude our office no offered last year. On the few occassions hiring partners from other firms have called me to talk to me about lateraling, I turn it into a pitch for them to hire our former summer. He's a good guy and just screwed up 2-3 assignments for the wrong guys, which I guess undid an entire summer of solid work.

This is really awesome of you

[hichvichwoh]

crap, i was planning on using the backpack i used in lawschool for the summer, is this a bad idea? do i need to buy a professional looking bag or suitcase or something?