Student loan payments: get advice and actual numbers here Forum

[mr. wednesday]

How does $250k in debt happen? Look at cost of attendance. CLS this year says $85,000 and Duke says $75,000, and they are probably opposite for COL. If you aren't at one of the 2-3 schools that give need based aid and you sign on for sticker price, that's $225k - $255k before loan origination fees, yearly tuition increases, and interest. There is almost no chance of increasing your scholarship 2L and 3L year except a handful of people that get competitive grants or if you go to HYS.

Unless you've saved a serious amount going in or are getting a lot of money from your parents, no amount of cost-cutting measures or getting roommates or 2L SA wages will get you down to $150k total debt. The only way to get to that without going to a TTT is to have a lot of money to begin with, take a scholarship when you enroll, or go somewhere that offers in-state tuition.

[Anonymous User]

Going back to when this thread was about paying off debt. Seemed like the average debt was slightly north of $150K. However, on TLS there are numerous claims that +$250K is a normal debt, but I just don’t see it on this thread or IRL. I am not suggesting that no one has a high ticket tuition, but I doubt if it is as widespread as many claim it is.

Speaking for my T14, 95%+ of the young peoples' parents clearly pay for either all or a good chunk. The few old people either have Yellow Ribbon or banking/consulting savings or something. Then scholarships.... Seemingly all the K-JDs on TLS are just sooo independent from their parents but that is definitely not how it is irl. I mean shit half of em live in $1500-2k+/mo. apartments, loans would not even stretch far enough to do that

oh cool which T14 is it that's all rich people and veterans and ex bankers? Sounds really cool.

Different from previous anons and I am not sure this even matters, but I do think a lot of my classmates are not as independent from their parents as what the class sample on TLS seems to show. Their lifestyle is simply too lavish if they are only getting loans. They live in uber-expensive places and just generally money does not seem to be an issue like it is for me.

Also, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. If I had children, and I could afford it, I would definitely want to help them.

[OneMoreLawHopeful]

How does $250k in debt happen? Look at cost of attendance. CLS this year says $85,000 and Duke says $75,000, and they are probably opposite for COL. If you aren't at one of the 2-3 schools that give need based aid and you sign on for sticker price, that's $225k - $255k before loan origination fees, yearly tuition increases, and interest. There is almost no chance of increasing your scholarship 2L and 3L year except a handful of people that get competitive grants or if you go to HYS.

Where are you getting the information that only 2 or 3 schools give need based aid? Literally every single T14 claims to give aid that is need based (including both Columbia and Duke, I just checked). Do you have info that 11 of the T14 schools are simply lying about their claims?

user outed for anon abuse

[thelawyler]

How does $250k in debt happen? Look at cost of attendance. CLS this year says $85,000 and Duke says $75,000, and they are probably opposite for COL. If you aren't at one of the 2-3 schools that give need based aid and you sign on for sticker price, that's $225k - $255k before loan origination fees, yearly tuition increases, and interest. There is almost no chance of increasing your scholarship 2L and 3L year except a handful of people that get competitive grants or if you go to HYS.

Where are you getting the information that only 2 or 3 schools give need based aid? Literally every single T14 claims to give aid that is need based (including both Columbia and Duke, I just checked). Do you have info that 11 of the T14 schools are simply lying about their claims?

user outed for anon abuse

Because they usually are misrepresenting it. They combine "merit" with "need" and only give you that "need" if you have a lot of "merit". My family is pretty damn poor (AGI of 10k and negative value in assets) and I got no need-based from any non-HYS school except for GULC. That being said, I'll be 290k in debt at NYU.

[helfer snooterbagon]

290k, holy shit, you win, that is more than I owe on my house!

[OneMoreLawHopeful]

Because they usually are misrepresenting it. They combine "merit" with "need" and only give you that "need" if you have a lot of "merit". My family is pretty damn poor (AGI of 10k and negative value in assets) and I got no need-based from any non-HYS school except for GULC. That being said, I'll be 290k in debt at NYU.

I'm sorry, but this is really misleading because it implies your received no offers of aid at all, even though in your post history you talked about getting merit-based aid from M, and then complaining that you didn't ALSO get need based aid.

I'm not trying to call you out personally, but it's misleading to craft a narrative that makes it sound like the majority of the T14 only offered you sticker when your posting history suggests otherwise. I'm not judging your debt load or your school choice (NYU over M or GULC is perfectly reasonable), but your post here makes it sound like you didn't get offers of grants/scholarships even though you did, simply because the offers you got were labeled "merit based" instead of "need based."

[A. Nony Mouse]

I think you're reading too much into it. thelawyler didn't say he received no aid at all, he said only that he didn't receive need-based aid except at GULC. This was a direct response to the question about whether schools besides HYS offer need-based aid. Saying next that he's going to be $290K in debt doesn't imply he wasn't offered merit aid anywhere - just that he didn't take it, or didn't get/take much, or whatever leads to that number. Whether he was offered merit aid doesn't invalidate his point that he didn't get need-based aid.

[dixiecupdrinking]

Because they usually are misrepresenting it. They combine "merit" with "need" and only give you that "need" if you have a lot of "merit". My family is pretty damn poor (AGI of 10k and negative value in assets) and I got no need-based from any non-HYS school except for GULC. That being said, I'll be 290k in debt at NYU.

I'm sorry, but this is really misleading because it implies your received no offers of aid at all, even though in your post history you talked about getting merit-based aid from M, and then complaining that you didn't ALSO get need based aid.

I'm not trying to call you out personally, but it's misleading to craft a narrative that makes it sound like the majority of the T14 only offered you sticker when your posting history suggests otherwise. I'm not judging your debt load or your school choice (NYU over M or GULC is perfectly reasonable), but your post here makes it sound like you didn't get offers of grants/scholarships even though you did, simply because the offers you got were labeled "merit based" instead of "need based."

It's not misleading and it's not even remotely incorrect either. Just go look at the correlation between LSAT and scholarships on LSN and then tell me that schools make aid decisions based on need instead of merit.

[Old Gregg]

How did this thread turn from super helpful to super bad

[84651846190]

How did this thread turn from super helpful to super bad

It was posted on TLS.

[09042014]

How did this thread turn from super helpful to super bad

These aggregating anecdotes threads are never helpful.

[rad lulz]

m

[thelawyler]

Because they usually are misrepresenting it. They combine "merit" with "need" and only give you that "need" if you have a lot of "merit". My family is pretty damn poor (AGI of 10k and negative value in assets) and I got no need-based from any non-HYS school except for GULC. That being said, I'll be 290k in debt at NYU.

I'm sorry, but this is really misleading because it implies your received no offers of aid at all, even though in your post history you talked about getting merit-based aid from M, and then complaining that you didn't ALSO get need based aid.

I'm not trying to call you out personally, but it's misleading to craft a narrative that makes it sound like the majority of the T14 only offered you sticker when your posting history suggests otherwise. I'm not judging your debt load or your school choice (NYU over M or GULC is perfectly reasonable), but your post here makes it sound like you didn't get offers of grants/scholarships even though you did, simply because the offers you got were labeled "merit based" instead of "need based."

A. Nony Mouse above addressed most of your points accurately. I just wanted to add that GULC is the only school that gave me a letter that said "Dear thelawyler, we are giving you a need-based scholarship of XX,XXX dollars." Then 2 weeks later they sent me another letter saying "Dear thelawyler, we have decided to give you a merit-scholarship in addition to your need-based scholarship. Thus your total scholarship offer is 1XX,XXX."

Thus I do not feel like I was wrong or misleading in saying I only got one school to give me need-based aid. And the need-based aid they explicitly gave me was fairly significant... I think around 80-90k or something. And this was notably separate from their merit-aid. So yeah. If GULC thought I was needy enough to give me that much, I was probably pretty needy. But other schools opted not to give me as much cheese because lack of "merit."

[OneMoreLawHopeful]

I think you're reading too much into it. thelawyler didn't say he received no aid at all, he said only that he didn't receive need-based aid except at GULC. This was a direct response to the question about whether schools besides HYS offer need-based aid. Saying next that he's going to be $290K in debt doesn't imply he wasn't offered merit aid anywhere - just that he didn't take it, or didn't get/take much, or whatever leads to that number. Whether he was offered merit aid doesn't invalidate his point that he didn't get need-based aid.

You and thelawyer are both assuming that he would still not have received need based offers in the event he did not get merit based offers. This is an unjustified assumption. It seems perfectly reasonable that schools might say "This applicant is already getting merit based aid, so we will not also offer need based aid."

Indeed, in a different thread thelawyer explicitly suggested that was the case.

Since thelawyer left out his offers of merit based aid, he was leaving out a very significant detail that could impact offers of need based aid, hence he was being misleading.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I can see that if someone receives merit-based aid, they'd likely not be considered for need-based aid (should it exist) because they won't have any need, but that someone received merit-based aid doesn't in itself say anything about whether need-based aid is independently available. I suppose the most you can say is that we're both operating on assumptions about what schools might or might not do. Do you have evidence of people getting need-based aid who didn't get merit-based aid in significant enough numbers to say it's available outside HYS?

[OneMoreLawHopeful]

Most of the Berkeley students I know currently get something (I'm in SF so I regularly run into Berkeley students at events). It's often tiny compared to what the Stanford kids get, but it's still there.

I would also re-emphasize that all of the T14 claim to give out need based aid, so it seems odd that I have to be the one to produce proof. It seems more reasonable to ask people claiming the T14 are behaving dishonestly to come forward with proof of that accusation.

[worldtraveler]

Most of the Berkeley students I know currently get something (I'm in SF so I regularly run into Berkeley students at events). It's often tiny compared to what the Stanford kids get, but it's still there.

I would also re-emphasize that all of the T14 claim to give out need based aid, so it seems odd that I have to be the one to produce proof. It seems more reasonable to ask people claiming the T14 are behaving dishonestly to come forward with proof of that accusation.

Do you just walk up to random Berkeley students and ask them about their finances?

And yes, some people do get merit and/or need based aid, but it is not easy to get and for most it's the first year only.

[Old Gregg]

Most of the Berkeley students I know currently get something (I'm in SF so I regularly run into Berkeley students at events).

I'd love to see how these conversations actually play out at events.

[thelawyler]

I think you're reading too much into it. thelawyler didn't say he received no aid at all, he said only that he didn't receive need-based aid except at GULC. This was a direct response to the question about whether schools besides HYS offer need-based aid. Saying next that he's going to be $290K in debt doesn't imply he wasn't offered merit aid anywhere - just that he didn't take it, or didn't get/take much, or whatever leads to that number. Whether he was offered merit aid doesn't invalidate his point that he didn't get need-based aid.

You and thelawyer are both assuming that he would still not have received need based offers in the event he did not get merit based offers. This is an unjustified assumption. It seems perfectly reasonable that schools might say "This applicant is already getting merit based aid, so we will not also offer need based aid."

Indeed, in a different thread thelawyer explicitly suggested that was the case.

Since thelawyer left out his offers of merit based aid, he was leaving out a very significant detail that could impact offers of need based aid, hence he was being misleading.

No. I did not say nor assume that if I did not get merit, I would not have gotten need-based. I just simply said that I did not get need-based from those schools. That is a fact. I also did not get into some T14 schools. That is also a fact. But I only got one explicit need-based offer from t14. And it was a huge offer bc I'm a needy student. Another fact.

I also did not say need-based did not exist. It clearly does. I said so. I've even shared PMs with some needy students at some schools who got need-based aid. It exists. But it's rare and unreliable. My story is purely to show that need-based aid is mostly a flame and thus for most people at most t-14s, it is not worth talking about when projecting law school costs for most people.

Now please stop. This is unbearable. Why are you so invested in this idea of need-based aid under HYS?

[A. Nony Mouse]

Most of the Berkeley students I know currently get something (I'm in SF so I regularly run into Berkeley students at events). It's often tiny compared to what the Stanford kids get, but it's still there.

I would also re-emphasize that all of the T14 claim to give out need based aid, so it seems odd that I have to be the one to produce proof. It seems more reasonable to ask people claiming the T14 are behaving dishonestly to come forward with proof of that accusation.

Schools also say they they consider all LSAT scores and engage in holistic review of applications, which are statements generally contradicted by TLS/LSN, so people don't really trust what school websites say.

[dixiecupdrinking]

Most of the Berkeley students I know currently get something (I'm in SF so I regularly run into Berkeley students at events). It's often tiny compared to what the Stanford kids get, but it's still there.

I would also re-emphasize that all of the T14 claim to give out need based aid, so it seems odd that I have to be the one to produce proof. It seems more reasonable to ask people claiming the T14 are behaving dishonestly to come forward with proof of that accusation.

You don't "have" to produce anything, you're just wrong.

[hiima3L]

I figured this thread was as good as any.

According to my loan provider, it's time to re-certify my IBR status. I filled out the form they sent and submitted proof of change in income.

But a few of my co-workers said they didn't have to do this, even with a change in income (we all have the same income change, so our circumstances are similar). And they also said they you don't need to submit proof of a change in income until you do your taxes.

Any input would be appreciated.

[09042014]

Paid 8k towards my loans today. Still owe more Than I did at graduation.

Tyranny of that 8%.

[02122015]

Missed this thread when it was new, but here goes:

Debt: $178K ($170K federal student loans, $5K private bar exam loan, $3K credit card debt)
Payments: $118/month ($56/month for the bar exam loan, $62/month minimum on the credit card; I pay more when possible). $0 on the fed loans.
Income: 0 (last year was something like $7K)
Plan: PAYE for fed loans
Additional info: Single, no kids, living at home for now

[Big Shrimpin]

Paid 8k towards my loans today. Still owe more Than I did at graduation.

Tyranny of that 8%.

The TYRANNY.