2013 UVA OGI Thread Forum

[Anonymous User]

There are very few reaches in NYC with a 3.6.

Sull Crom is stretch but doable, Skadden is totally fine.
Wachtell and Cravath are probably a waste, but they won't laugh you out of the room. Same goes for Boies Schiller. Paul Weiss can be pretty competitive too. Quinn Emmanuel is pretty choosy based on grades so your chances are not that high.

Here is the thing: NYC will be pretty solid, you'll probably have more bids than you need. If a firm in NYC catches your eye, BID on it. Do not bid on a bunch of v50 firms with a 3.6 to be totally safe.

I don't know who these people are talking about Wachtell. Unless things have changed this year, Wachtell does not do OGI. As a mass mail, you'd probably need a minimum 3.8 to have a chance/callback. And either 3.8 PLUS solid finance experience or 3.9+ without finance experience to have a real shot of an offer.

Quinn is doable at 3.6 and it doesn't matter since they're not doing OGI so you just mass mail.

The bottom line is you are not going to get Wachtell coming from UVa.

This was my doing. I used Wachtell as the hyperbole.

For a 3.65 with NY ties, how is this bid list at the top (I want either NY/LA) but would prefer LA. Ties are film and friends. List in descending order. I really want LA, and figure I'll get lots of NY preselects. I'm worried about getting no offered if my bid list is really dumb, and LA does not love me for being an outsider.

Would love to do entertainment law in the film industry, also would love to do anything contract or water use/gas law related. Anything corporate is cool too.

• Gibson Dunn (LA)
  Irell (LA)
  Latham (LA)
  O'Melveny & Myers (LA)
  Cooley (LA)
  Skadden (NY)
  Morgan Lewis (LA)
  Sullivan (NY)
  Paul Hastings (LA)
  Jones Day (LA)
  Mayer Brown (LA)
  Dechert (NY)
  Knobbe (LA)
  Wilson Sonsini (LA)
  Irell (Newport Beach)
  Covington (NY)
  Foley (LA)
  Baker Hostetler (LA)
  K&L Gates (NY)

[Anonymous User]

For a 3.65 with NY ties, how is this bid list at the top (I want either NY/LA) but would prefer LA. Ties are film and friends. List in descending order. I really want LA, and figure I'll get lots of NY preselects. I'm worried about getting no offered if my bid list is really dumb, and LA does not love me for being an outsider.

Would love to do entertainment law in the film industry, also would love to do anything contract or water use/gas law related. Anything corporate is cool too.

• Gibson Dunn (LA)
  Irell (LA)
  Latham (LA)
  O'Melveny & Myers (LA)
  Cooley (LA)
  Skadden (NY)
  Morgan Lewis (LA)
  Sullivan (NY)
  Paul Hastings (LA)
  Jones Day (LA)
  Mayer Brown (LA)
  Dechert (NY)
  Knobbe (LA)
  Wilson Sonsini (LA)
  Irell (Newport Beach)
  Covington (NY)
  Foley (LA)
  Baker Hostetler (LA)
  K&L Gates (NY)

I think this list looks fine. I was in a very similar situation, targeting a non-New York market with a 3.68. However, I had really strong ties to that market, having worked there before law school. My bid list was all secondary market at the top, in rank from most selective to least selective, in case one of the offices didn't pre-select me. Then I filled in the list with NY at the bottom.

Here's what happened: I got pre-selected by every New York firm, and pre-selected by all but two of the secondary market firms. One firm that didn't pre-select me must not have liked my resume, because I was otherwise in their GPA wheelhouse. I had ranked that firm #1, so I gave up some NY interviews so I could go through the lottery. I got them through the lottery, had a great interview, and then didn't get a callback. They clearly didn't like my resume, and I probably should have seen the writing on the wall, but there was no harm done. I had more callbacks in the secondary market then I knew what to do with and ended up choosing a firm I would not have expected to choose at the outset. I turned down all the callbacks from NY firms.

If you have a good enough LA story to tell—and, most importantly, that LA story is somehow reflected in the materials you submit via Symplicity—I bet you'll be fine.

So if I were to tinker with your list, I would list every LA firm before every NY firm, since all the NY firms are going to pre-select you based on your ties and GPA, and you might want the lottery for an LA firm.

P.S. I in no way mean to suggest that LA is a secondary market, nor was the city I was applying to. What I mean is that they are secondary at UVa because they don't send as many firms here for OGI.

[Anonymous User]

Last year KDon told me that Boies had the 2nd highest gpa floor for recent callbacks, behind only Williams & Connolly. And I believe the number he gave was in the 3.65 range, but I'm not 100% certain.

FWIW as a data point, I got a Boies CB with one of their West Coast offices last year w/a 3.68.

[Anonymous User]

For a 3.65 with NY ties, how is this bid list at the top (I want either NY/LA) but would prefer LA. Ties are film and friends. List in descending order. I really want LA, and figure I'll get lots of NY preselects. I'm worried about getting no offered if my bid list is really dumb, and LA does not love me for being an outsider.

Would love to do entertainment law in the film industry, also would love to do anything contract or water use/gas law related. Anything corporate is cool too.

• Gibson Dunn (LA)
  Irell (LA)
  Latham (LA)
  O'Melveny & Myers (LA)
  Cooley (LA)
  Skadden (NY)
  Morgan Lewis (LA)
  Sullivan (NY)
  Paul Hastings (LA)
  Jones Day (LA)
  Mayer Brown (LA)
  Dechert (NY)
  Knobbe (LA)
  Wilson Sonsini (LA)
  Irell (Newport Beach)
  Covington (NY)
  Foley (LA)
  Baker Hostetler (LA)
  K&L Gates (NY)

[/quote][/quote][/quote]

I think this list looks fine. I was in a very similar situation, targeting a non-New York market with a 3.68. However, I had really strong ties to that market, having worked there before law school. My bid list was all secondary market at the top, in rank from most selective to least selective, in case one of the offices didn't pre-select me. Then I filled in the list with NY at the bottom.

Here's what happened: I got pre-selected by every New York firm, and pre-selected by all but two of the secondary market firms. One firm that didn't pre-select me must not have liked my resume, because I was otherwise in their GPA wheelhouse. I had ranked that firm #1, so I gave up some NY interviews so I could go through the lottery. I got them through the lottery, had a great interview, and then didn't get a callback. They clearly didn't like my resume, and I probably should have seen the writing on the wall, but there was no harm done. I had more callbacks in the secondary market then I knew what to do with and ended up choosing a firm I would not have expected to choose at the outset. I turned down all the callbacks from NY firms.

If you have a good enough LA story to tell—and, most importantly, that LA story is somehow reflected in the materials you submit via Symplicity—I bet you'll be fine.

So if I were to tinker with your list, I would list every LA firm before every NY firm, since all the NY firms are going to pre-select you based on your ties and GPA, and you might want the lottery for an LA firm.

P.S. I in no way mean to suggest that LA is a secondary market, nor was the city I was applying to. What I mean is that they are secondary at UVa because they don't send as many firms here for OGI.[/quote]



Firstly, thanks so much for replying to this with your relevant experience to help me out.

Secondly, the reason why I'm not all LA up top is while I would prefer LA, the most important thing to me is getting a job with market pay and an opportunity to grow. The quality of life b/w 160k and no offered seems much larger than returning to NY with a lower regarded firm vs LA with a top firm. I feel like Skadden has good bonuses, huge associate classes and the odds of turning an interview into an offer are not that far fetched.

What safety NY firms would you recommend? From the list, it seemed that many of those sub 3.4 firms had 150 bids for associate classes of 4-10 attorneys. The odds of landing any one of those seems much lower than landing Skadden, for instance, given what KD says about once you're in the room - it's more interviewing well than anything else. I think it would be naive to assume I'll interview better than 95% of my classmates, and there'd only be 1 UVa slot, if that. Where am i somewhat close to a "shoe in" as long as I don't piss myself?

[desertlaw]

Firstly, thanks so much for replying to this with your relevant experience to help me out.

Secondly, the reason why I'm not all LA up top is while I would prefer LA, the most important thing to me is getting a job with market pay and an opportunity to grow. The quality of life b/w 160k and no offered seems much larger than returning to NY with a lower regarded firm vs LA with a top firm. I feel like Skadden has good bonuses, huge associate classes and the odds of turning an interview into an offer are not that far fetched.

What safety NY firms would you recommend? From the list, it seemed that many of those sub 3.4 firms had 150 bids for associate classes of 4-10 attorneys. The odds of landing any one of those seems much lower than landing Skadden, for instance, given what KD says about once you're in the room - it's more interviewing well than anything else. I think it would be naive to assume I'll interview better than 95% of my classmates, and there'd only be 1 UVa slot, if that. Where am i somewhat close to a "shoe in" as long as I don't piss myself?

You're not a "shoe-in" anywhere. Your best chances are firms with big associate classes, like Skadden, that prefer higher grades. So Skadden, DPW, Gibson, Latham, Kirkland. Those are more "shoe-ins" than the firms that go to median but only get 4-8 SA's.

[Anonymous User]

Firstly, thanks so much for replying to this with your relevant experience to help me out.

Secondly, the reason why I'm not all LA up top is while I would prefer LA, the most important thing to me is getting a job with market pay and an opportunity to grow. The quality of life b/w 160k and no offered seems much larger than returning to NY with a lower regarded firm vs LA with a top firm. I feel like Skadden has good bonuses, huge associate classes and the odds of turning an interview into an offer are not that far fetched.

What safety NY firms would you recommend? From the list, it seemed that many of those sub 3.4 firms had 150 bids for associate classes of 4-10 attorneys. The odds of landing any one of those seems much lower than landing Skadden, for instance, given what KD says about once you're in the room - it's more interviewing well than anything else. I think it would be naive to assume I'll interview better than 95% of my classmates, and there'd only be 1 UVa slot, if that. Where am i somewhat close to a "shoe in" as long as I don't piss myself?

You're not a "shoe-in" anywhere. Your best chances are firms with big associate classes, like Skadden, that prefer higher grades. So Skadden, DPW, Gibson, Latham, Kirkland. Those are more "shoe-ins" than the firms that go to median but only get 4-8 SA's.

I'm the original responder to your bid-list post.

I agree with Desertlaw that you aren't a shoe-in anywhere; no one is. With your GPA, you are going to get a lot of interviews, but turning those into callbacks is going to depend a lot on your work experience and resume, as well as the interview itself.

Your bid order really isn't going to make much difference. But firm choice will. My approach was to fill out my bid list with New York firms that were GPA appropriate (meaning 3.5 and higher) and that had good reputations as places to work. I would not suggest bidding firms that are sub-3.4 because they will know exactly what you are doing and may not waste even a screener on you. So Skadden, DPW, Gibson, etc., are all good places for you to bid, as is any place in your GPA band with a big summer class.

[Law Sauce]

Firstly, thanks so much for replying to this with your relevant experience to help me out.

Secondly, the reason why I'm not all LA up top is while I would prefer LA, the most important thing to me is getting a job with market pay and an opportunity to grow. The quality of life b/w 160k and no offered seems much larger than returning to NY with a lower regarded firm vs LA with a top firm. I feel like Skadden has good bonuses, huge associate classes and the odds of turning an interview into an offer are not that far fetched.

What safety NY firms would you recommend? From the list, it seemed that many of those sub 3.4 firms had 150 bids for associate classes of 4-10 attorneys. The odds of landing any one of those seems much lower than landing Skadden, for instance, given what KD says about once you're in the room - it's more interviewing well than anything else. I think it would be naive to assume I'll interview better than 95% of my classmates, and there'd only be 1 UVa slot, if that. Where am i somewhat close to a "shoe in" as long as I don't piss myself?

You're not a "shoe-in" anywhere. Your best chances are firms with big associate classes, like Skadden, that prefer higher grades. So Skadden, DPW, Gibson, Latham, Kirkland. Those are more "shoe-ins" than the firms that go to median but only get 4-8 SA's.

I'm the original responder to your bid-list post.

I agree with Desertlaw that you aren't a shoe-in anywhere; no one is. With your GPA, you are going to get a lot of interviews, but turning those into callbacks is going to depend a lot on your work experience and resume, as well as the interview itself.

Your bid order really isn't going to make much difference. But firm choice will. My approach was to fill out my bid list with New York firms that were GPA appropriate (meaning 3.5 and higher) and that had good reputations as places to work. I would not suggest bidding firms that are sub-3.4 because they will know exactly what you are doing and may not waste even a screener on you. So Skadden, DPW, Gibson, etc., are all good places for you to bid, as is any place in your GPA band with a big summer class.

This is all great advice but just keep in mind that these NY firms that are being mentioned are some of the most sought after firms in the country. I had similar grades and had callbacks at a number of these places but failed to get an offer from the firms mentioned. There could have been a lot of reasons for that, but I am just saying that you cannot expect these firms to be less competitive in any way because of the large class sizes (in fact these top firms actually are more competitive). While it may be easier to get a callback from these firms from UVa at OGI, once you get to NY, you will be completing with a ton of top Harvard, Yale, Columbia, NYU, Penn, etc. For me personally, after listening to tls for so long, I was not quite expecting it to be so competitive in NY since there were so many spots. Once I thought about it for a second though, I realized that this would obviously be the case. I mean places like Skadden, DPW, and even Gibson, to a lesser extent, are the top firms in the world and are highly sought after by top students from all the top schools. Outside of DC and NY, you just dont have that quantity of interested highly-qualified students. So, basically, even if NY is your backup, you better approach it like it is your biggest goal or else you may be wasting your time (at least for the Skadden NY and DPWs of the world).

Anyway, good luck, go for it and you will be fine I'm sure

[Anonymous User]

My unofficial transcript in symplicty doesn't have GPA or that note about 3.48 being top 25%. Is that normal?

[5ky]

My unofficial transcript in symplicty doesn't have GPA or that note about 3.48 being top 25%. Is that normal?

The former is normal and the latter is the new normal. Firms will calculate your GPA themselves

[Anonymous User]

Are people putting their GPA on their Resume? I have a 3.44, and dont think I should put it as that is pretty low...

[Anonymous User]

My unofficial transcript in symplicty doesn't have GPA or that note about 3.48 being top 25%. Is that normal?

The former is normal and the latter is the new normal. Firms will calculate your GPA themselves

Any likelihood those 2 credit A's or B's will have a bigger impact bec of this than they do on our cumulative through the school?

[Anonymous User]

Firstly, thanks so much for replying to this with your relevant experience to help me out.

Secondly, the reason why I'm not all LA up top is while I would prefer LA, the most important thing to me is getting a job with market pay and an opportunity to grow. The quality of life b/w 160k and no offered seems much larger than returning to NY with a lower regarded firm vs LA with a top firm. I feel like Skadden has good bonuses, huge associate classes and the odds of turning an interview into an offer are not that far fetched.

What safety NY firms would you recommend? From the list, it seemed that many of those sub 3.4 firms had 150 bids for associate classes of 4-10 attorneys. The odds of landing any one of those seems much lower than landing Skadden, for instance, given what KD says about once you're in the room - it's more interviewing well than anything else. I think it would be naive to assume I'll interview better than 95% of my classmates, and there'd only be 1 UVa slot, if that. Where am i somewhat close to a "shoe in" as long as I don't piss myself?

You're not a "shoe-in" anywhere. Your best chances are firms with big associate classes, like Skadden, that prefer higher grades. So Skadden, DPW, Gibson, Latham, Kirkland. Those are more "shoe-ins" than the firms that go to median but only get 4-8 SA's.

I'm the original responder to your bid-list post.

I agree with Desertlaw that you aren't a shoe-in anywhere; no one is. With your GPA, you are going to get a lot of interviews, but turning those into callbacks is going to depend a lot on your work experience and resume, as well as the interview itself.

Your bid order really isn't going to make much difference. But firm choice will. My approach was to fill out my bid list with New York firms that were GPA appropriate (meaning 3.5 and higher) and that had good reputations as places to work. I would not suggest bidding firms that are sub-3.4 because they will know exactly what you are doing and may not waste even a screener on you. So Skadden, DPW, Gibson, etc., are all good places for you to bid, as is any place in your GPA band with a big summer class.

This is all great advice but just keep in mind that these NY firms that are being mentioned are some of the most sought after firms in the country. I had similar grades and had callbacks at a number of these places but failed to get an offer from the firms mentioned. There could have been a lot of reasons for that, but I am just saying that you cannot expect these firms to be less competitive in any way because of the large class sizes (in fact these top firms actually are more competitive). While it may be easier to get a callback from these firms from UVa at OGI, once you get to NY, you will be completing with a ton of top Harvard, Yale, Columbia, NYU, Penn, etc. For me personally, after listening to tls for so long, I was not quite expecting it to be so competitive in NY since there were so many spots. Once I thought about it for a second though, I realized that this would obviously be the case. I mean places like Skadden, DPW, and even Gibson, to a lesser extent, are the top firms in the world and are highly sought after by top students from all the top schools. Outside of DC and NY, you just dont have that quantity of interested highly-qualified students. So, basically, even if NY is your backup, you better approach it like it is your biggest goal or else you may be wasting your time (at least for the Skadden NY and DPWs of the world).

Anyway, good luck, go for it and you will be fine I'm sure

I sure hope I'm fine, but all this makes sense. Still, it seems much harder to come out as 1 of 5 than 1 of 150. Even with the HYSCCN people, there's under 600 people superficially above my #'s in the country so hopefully I won't be collecting change on the street corner, which is what it's really all about. Not to sound cocky, but even though Skadden and such is so sought after it just seems much easier to get than Hunton & Williams.

[5ky]

^^You're kind of right, but you have a less-than-steller attitude about this whole thing. You aren't going to win any friends among your peers and firms will pick up on it if you're a prick

[5ky]

My unofficial transcript in symplicty doesn't have GPA or that note about 3.48 being top 25%. Is that normal?

The former is normal and the latter is the new normal. Firms will calculate your GPA themselves

Any likelihood those 2 credit A's or B's will have a bigger impact bec of this than they do on our cumulative through the school?

Don't understand what you mean. But cum gpa rules all

[Anonymous User]

^^You're kind of right, but you have a less-than-steller attitude about this whole thing. You aren't going to win any friends among your peers and firms will pick up on it if you're a prick

Don't mean to come off as anything other than nice. I just have done everything since applying to law school based on data, and making the best bet. I'm also not going just off that, but also firms that specialize in what I'd like to do. It was just hard for me to put the 2 SA classes, even if the firm seemed great.

[Anonymous User]

Have we established whether firms can see what you title documents in symplicty?

[envisciguy]

Are people putting their GPA on their Resume? I have a 3.44, and dont think I should put it as that is pretty low...

Why wouldn't you want to put a 3.44 on your resume? Considering that median is 3.3 and top 25% is around 3.48, a 3.44 isn't "pretty low."

[Anonymous User]

with a low 3.6 should I be bidding all band 1 firms? are band 2 firms any more likely to bite? I'm targeting NYC and a secondary market and a few firms in DC with practice areas I like.

[auburnbelle89]

Have we established whether firms can see what you title documents in symplicty?

Firms can't see what you title your documents. Only career services and you can see the titles. I had the same question earlier this week.

[Anonymous User]

with a low 3.6 should I be bidding all band 1 firms? are band 2 firms any more likely to bite? I'm targeting NYC and a secondary market and a few firms in DC with practice areas I like.

FWIW I am a rising 2L, too, but m GPA is in your range and was told to bid mostly band 1 and some band 2. I think 30 out of 50 are band 1 for me in D.C. Most of the band 2s for me come in on my secondary market. I think this can very depending on how much of a risk taker you are.

[Anonymous User]

which is a bigger waste of a bid for a median student--a firm in your band that only expects 1-3 summers, or a firm way above your gpa range that expects 50+?

Are they mutually exclusive? Both have long odds for you, not sure which is worse. Maybe the one with only expecting 1-3 summers if you have really good resume + interview ability/personality. But both are tough.

What do you mean by "way above"? I was in your position last year (3.31) and got a several offers from firms with classes of 10-25 students in NYC and my home secondary - GPA ranges were either 3.4-3.5 or below 3.4. Target the hell out of those firms, as they will be your best (and likely only) bets. Research their practice areas. Research your interviewers. Be careful to read their social cues in the interview and respond accordingly if you get a slot. Yadda yadda.

But if you're going to pick one or the other I disagree with DL - I'd go with the firm above your GPA range with the big class (but skip the asterisk firms), bid them high, and blow the interview out of the water. The tiny summer classes have SO MUCH competition during OGI, and if I recall correctly, at least the NYC firm slots for the smaller firms that everyone was vying for seemed to only go to those people who were from NY and had lots of ties there (and possibly also family connections that got them those SA positions). As DL said, both are going to be tough, if not impossible.

[Anonymous User]

Hi all,

I'm a rising 3L currently working at a firm in NYC. I did OGI last year so I remember it well. Median grades (I posted just above this post too.) Ties to a secondary market that is somewhat insular but also has a pretty thriving legal market so that definitely helped. In any event, I took OGI seriously and got good results with my numbers. I hope I can help with some/any of your questions. Some of the other sage folks in this thread helped me out a lot last year and I was very appreciative-- trying to pay it forward. As a preliminary matter, OGI is a stressful time so please hang in there. Try to have fun with it. Be open and honest with yourself and others and be smart with your bids. Listed to KD and all will be well. Y'all will blow it out of the park!

[Anonymous User]

Are people putting their GPA on their Resume? I have a 3.44, and dont think I should put it as that is pretty low...

Why wouldn't you want to put a 3.44 on your resume? Considering that median is 3.3 and top 25% is around 3.48, a 3.44 isn't "pretty low."

I think the rule of thumb for KD and co. is 25%+. Hopson used to say 3.6.

[Anonymous User]

Are people putting their GPA on their Resume? I have a 3.44, and dont think I should put it as that is pretty low...

Why wouldn't you want to put a 3.44 on your resume? Considering that median is 3.3 and top 25% is around 3.48, a 3.44 isn't "pretty low."

I think the rule of thumb for KD and co. is 25%+. Hopson used to say 3.6.

Also, get your resume edited by career services if that is still available - fantastic resource right there.

[Anonymous User]

any bid strategy tips for a 3.45 bidding all DC (with ties)? Too risky? Already written off WC, etc. that won't come below a 3.6