Milbank/Davis Polk/Cravath Scale: NYC to 215-415k Forum

[Anonymous User]

Is there any logical reason for Milbank to re-raise here?

[Anonymous User]

The juniors in this thread talking about how "useful" they are are missing the point. As someone said above, it's about fungibility. There's no shortage of juniors. It's always been retention of midlevels/seniors that partners cared most about. Dealflow has been crazy over the past couple of years and there aren't enough midlevels/seniors to handle all that. Frankly, quite a number of deals can be handled by just a partner and a midlevel/senior without any support from juniors.

There's no point in saying you are useful. Of course you are, but that's not what's driving this salary war.

[Anonymous User]

Is there any logical reason for Milbank to re-raise here?

No. It's Cravath or no one, and I think the answer is no one. Maybe some firms clean up the numbers (i.e., round up to nearest thousand), but that will be firm dependent and isn't anything to write home about.

[Anonymous User]

PW matched DPW. Retroactive to Jan 1 - to be reflected in the March 15 paycheck.

[Anonymous User]

PW matched DPW. Retroactive to Jan 1 - to be reflected in the March 15 paycheck.

Did the email just go out right now?

[Anonymous User]

As a 2nd year v10 capital markets associate, the juniors here saying they don’t make themselves available in the evening are either woefully oblivious litigation associates or need to let me know where to lateral to asap.

[Anonymous User]

Pour one out for the offer I negotiated just yesterday off the Milbank scale.

[Anonymous User]

PW matched DPW. Retroactive to Jan 1 - to be reflected in the March 15 paycheck.

Did the email just go out right now?

Yep, about a half hour ago. It also mentioned that the discretionary bonuses for the second half of 2021 will also be included in the March 15 paycheck.

[ExpOriental]

As a 2nd year v10 capital markets associate, the juniors here saying they don’t make themselves available in the evening are either woefully oblivious litigation associates or need to let me know where to lateral to asap.

Maybe they're just not doormats.

You felt the need to include "v10" in your comment. Why do you think that is?

[Anonymous User]

Any Cravath associates care to chime in w/ a guesstimate for how quickly the firm will respond? Per some other commentary here I feel like they're the last shot at anything else happening with respect to what's "market." Also, once Cravath speaks, my guess is there will be a cascade of matches on that same logic, i.e., if Cravath isn't re-raising DPW, no one is.

[Anonymous User]

As a 2nd year v10 capital markets associate, the juniors here saying they don’t make themselves available in the evening are either woefully oblivious litigation associates or need to let me know where to lateral to asap.

Maybe they're just not doormats.

You felt the need to include "v10" in your comment. Why do you think that is?

Give me a break, everyone understands that the number of hours billed is typically higher at v10 groups than others much further down.

As everyone has mentioned here, the only reliable usefulness of a junior comes from their availability. There might be some that are better than others on the work they produce but ultimately juniors are there to be available.

Can’t wait to see how this type of sentiment changes when work slows down and these associates realize their reputation will have them out the door first.

[Anonymous User]

As a 2nd year v10 capital markets associate, the juniors here saying they don’t make themselves available in the evening are either woefully oblivious litigation associates or need to let me know where to lateral to asap.

As a v4 capital markets associate who went to one of HYSColumbia, I disagree.

[Anonymous User]

I don't think Cravath will re-raise. DPW's financials have been better than Cravath's. Cravath has been just a market-follower rather than a market-leader for some years.

[ExpOriental]

As a 2nd year v10 capital markets associate, the juniors here saying they don’t make themselves available in the evening are either woefully oblivious litigation associates or need to let me know where to lateral to asap.

Maybe they're just not doormats.

You felt the need to include "v10" in your comment. Why do you think that is?

Give me a break, everyone understands that the number of hours billed is typically higher at v10 groups than others much further down.

As everyone has mentioned here, the only reliable usefulness of a junior comes from their availability. There might be some that are better than others on the work they produce but ultimately juniors are there to be available.

Can’t wait to see how this type of sentiment changes when work slows down and these associates realize their reputation will have them out the door first.

"Yes, I'm a doormat" would've done the trick too.

[Anonymous User]

As a 2nd year v10 capital markets associate, the juniors here saying they don’t make themselves available in the evening are either woefully oblivious litigation associates or need to let me know where to lateral to asap.

Maybe they're just not doormats.

You felt the need to include "v10" in your comment. Why do you think that is?

v10 is obviously relevant to OP's point because hours and demands are as high at the v10 as anywhere else, he doesn't seem nearly as hung up on it as you

describing junior associates at v10s as doormats simply for being available in the evenings shows a wildly unrealistic picture of what the job entails

I doubt, but would love to think, that this is just the firm's failure to clearly communicate expectations--if it had been made clear to you when you were signing up for the job that you were expected to be willing to work in the evenings when there was work that clients wanted done on that timeline, would you have not taken the job because you "aren't a doormat"? Or would you have taken the job anyways and then proudly shunted the work off onto your fellow associates? If you naively misunderstood the job then fine, but if you knew it but thought that anyone whose shame didn't permit him to push work onto his colleagues was a "doormat" then you took the job under false pretenses

[ExpOriental]

As a 2nd year v10 capital markets associate, the juniors here saying they don’t make themselves available in the evening are either woefully oblivious litigation associates or need to let me know where to lateral to asap.

Maybe they're just not doormats.

You felt the need to include "v10" in your comment. Why do you think that is?

v10 is obviously relevant to OP's point because hours and demands are as high at the v10 as anywhere else, he doesn't seem nearly as hung up on it as you

describing junior associates at v10s as doormats simply for being available in the evenings shows a wildly unrealistic picture of what the job entails

I doubt, but would love to think, that this is just the firm's failure to clearly communicate expectations--if it had been made clear to you when you were signing up for the job that you were expected to be willing to work in the evenings when there was work that clients wanted done on that timeline, would you have not taken the job because you "aren't a doormat"? Or would you have taken the job anyways and then proudly shunted the work off onto your fellow associates? If you naively misunderstood the job then fine, but if you knew it but thought that anyone whose shame didn't permit him to push work onto his colleagues was a "doormat" then you took the job under false pretenses

"I am also a doormat"

[Anonymous User]

As a 2nd year v10 capital markets associate, the juniors here saying they don’t make themselves available in the evening are either woefully oblivious litigation associates or need to let me know where to lateral to asap.

Maybe they're just not doormats.

You felt the need to include "v10" in your comment. Why do you think that is?

Give me a break, everyone understands that the number of hours billed is typically higher at v10 groups than others much further down.

As everyone has mentioned here, the only reliable usefulness of a junior comes from their availability. There might be some that are better than others on the work they produce but ultimately juniors are there to be available.

Can’t wait to see how this type of sentiment changes when work slows down and these associates realize their reputation will have them out the door first.

Some of the juniors here are not reading the room. Memories inside firms are long. Even if we're using you right now because of the volume of work you can bet your butt the minute things slow down the first ones on the chopping block will be the associates who think they should be practicing "load management" as juniors. This was a common reason for letting people go pre-COVID and it'll become a common one again when we get back to normal.

[Anonymous User]

As a 2nd year v10 capital markets associate, the juniors here saying they don’t make themselves available in the evening are either woefully oblivious litigation associates or need to let me know where to lateral to asap.

Maybe they're just not doormats.

You felt the need to include "v10" in your comment. Why do you think that is?

v10 is obviously relevant to OP's point because hours and demands are as high at the v10 as anywhere else, he doesn't seem nearly as hung up on it as you

describing junior associates at v10s as doormats simply for being available in the evenings shows a wildly unrealistic picture of what the job entails

I doubt, but would love to think, that this is just the firm's failure to clearly communicate expectations--if it had been made clear to you when you were signing up for the job that you were expected to be willing to work in the evenings when there was work that clients wanted done on that timeline, would you have not taken the job because you "aren't a doormat"? Or would you have taken the job anyways and then proudly shunted the work off onto your fellow associates? If you naively misunderstood the job then fine, but if you knew it but thought that anyone whose shame didn't permit him to push work onto his colleagues was a "doormat" then you took the job under false pretenses

"I am also a doormat"

Hey, hey, I may be ugly and hate-filled, but I, um...

Srsly though you sound like someone who is happy to ask someone else to cover you when you have vacation coming up but can't be bothered to return the favor because boundaries etc. I spend way too much time at this job to not value my relationships with my fellow associates and I feel bad when they (whether junior or senior) have to pick up my slack. You do you, though.

[ExpOriental]

Hey, hey, I may be ugly and hate-filled, but I, um...

Srsly though you sound like someone who is happy to ask someone else to cover you when you have vacation coming up but can't be bothered to return the favor because boundaries etc. I spend way too much time at this job to not value my relationships with my fellow associates and I feel bad when they (whether junior or senior) have to pick up my slack. You do you, though.

Right, but you don't go on vacations because you're a quivering doormat. Cool hypothetical though, even though it's completely incorrect.

Some of the juniors here are not reading the room. Memories inside firms are long. Even if we're using you right now because of the volume of work you can bet your butt the minute things slow down the first ones on the chopping block will be the associates who think they should be practicing "load management" as juniors. This was a common reason for letting people go pre-COVID and it'll become a common one again when we get back to normal.

Terrifying!

Hey, juniors out there reading this exchange: count your blessings if you actually do get pushed out by freaks like the one I'm responding to, because it means spending that much less time around some of the worst people you'll ever encounter.

[Anonymous User]

Hey, hey, I may be ugly and hate-filled, but I, um...

Srsly though you sound like someone who is happy to ask someone else to cover you when you have vacation coming up but can't be bothered to return the favor because boundaries etc. I spend way too much time at this job to not value my relationships with my fellow associates and I feel bad when they (whether junior or senior) have to pick up my slack. You do you, though.

Right, but you don't go on vacations because you're a quivering doormat. Cool hypothetical though, even though it's completely incorrect.

Some of the juniors here are not reading the room. Memories inside firms are long. Even if we're using you right now because of the volume of work you can bet your butt the minute things slow down the first ones on the chopping block will be the associates who think they should be practicing "load management" as juniors. This was a common reason for letting people go pre-COVID and it'll become a common one again when we get back to normal.

Terrifying!

Hey, juniors out there reading this exchange: count your blessings if you actually do get pushed out by freaks like the one I'm responding to, because it means spending that much less time around some of the worst people you'll ever encounter.

Relax; no need to name call. And no one is trying to be terrifying. One of the reasons we post here is to be able to frankly (and anonymously) discuss business dynamics inside firms. Maybe it's different wherever you are (doubt it) but I'm just reflecting the reality of the V25 I'm at. Being consistently unavailable, pushing back on work (when you're not billing a ton), not promptly responding to e-mail or calls is one of the big missteps you can make as a junior and it will get you pushed out over time--slowly during weird times like we're in now, but quickly when things are normal as I said in my first post. We can certainly dance around this & pretend it's not true if that's more to everyone's taste.

[Anonymous User]

Hey, hey, I may be ugly and hate-filled, but I, um...

Srsly though you sound like someone who is happy to ask someone else to cover you when you have vacation coming up but can't be bothered to return the favor because boundaries etc. I spend way too much time at this job to not value my relationships with my fellow associates and I feel bad when they (whether junior or senior) have to pick up my slack. You do you, though.

Right, but you don't go on vacations because you're a quivering doormat. Cool hypothetical though, even though it's completely incorrect.

The personal attacks make me feel like you're angry at someone you work with and are venting here, which is fine but kind of ironic. I don't think we disagree as much as you might think, just different values. But for the record I do take all 5 weeks of vacation every year and people are happy to cover for me when I do. Not sure if that's uncommon but it might help that I tend to be a hardworking "doormat" when I'm not away.

[Anonymous User]

I guess it's one thing to be upset that the omnipresent fear of being fired hasn't been around for the last two years, but what kind of monster do you have to be to want people to get fired? Just to prove some point that sacrificing your late 20s to the panthern was, indeed, what needed to be done? Pound sand dudes

[Anonymous User]

I guess it's one thing to be upset that the omnipresent fear of being fired hasn't been around for the last two years, but what kind of monster do you have to be to want people to get fired? Just to prove some point that sacrificing your late 20s to the panthern was, indeed, what needed to be done? Pound sand dudes

I haven't seen one post suggesting anyone wants to see people get fired. People here need a lesson in the difference between "descriptive" vs. "normative." If anything, people are trying to opine on how *not* to get fired once things settle down again post-COVID.

[Anonymous User]

After more than a month, DPW finally matched and y'all are still arguing about the usefulness of junior associates. Just stop.

[Anonymous User]

Hey, hey, I may be ugly and hate-filled, but I, um...

Srsly though you sound like someone who is happy to ask someone else to cover you when you have vacation coming up but can't be bothered to return the favor because boundaries etc. I spend way too much time at this job to not value my relationships with my fellow associates and I feel bad when they (whether junior or senior) have to pick up my slack. You do you, though.

Right, but you don't go on vacations because you're a quivering doormat. Cool hypothetical though, even though it's completely incorrect.

Some of the juniors here are not reading the room. Memories inside firms are long. Even if we're using you right now because of the volume of work you can bet your butt the minute things slow down the first ones on the chopping block will be the associates who think they should be practicing "load management" as juniors. This was a common reason for letting people go pre-COVID and it'll become a common one again when we get back to normal.

Terrifying!

Hey, juniors out there reading this exchange: count your blessings if you actually do get pushed out by freaks like the one I'm responding to, because it means spending that much less time around some of the worst people you'll ever encounter.

Just a junior here, laughing at all ya'll who think this is more than a job. Will get back to this thread in the morning. Signing off before 8 PM.