Milbank/Davis Polk/Cravath Scale: NYC to 215-415k Forum

[Anonymous User]

Hilariously weak. If I was Milbucks I'd re-raise just to assert dominance.

Could see this too

I mean Milbank would probably have anticipated a DPW re-raise after their initial announcement, and planned accordingly- and they probably expected DPW to raise more than they did. So Milbank may have anticipated needing to go higher than this, and gone ahead with their first raise anyways. Their partnership might be happy to walk away now and save some money, or they might think "well we planned for more anyways, so lets just go for broke and raise to what we expected."

[DoveBodyWash]

predicting CSM to come over top. DPW made it too easy. Relatively cheap for a single office shop like Cravath. How many senior associates do they even have at this point?

215
225
250
295
340
365
385
400

It should be 215 -> 225 -> 250 -> 300 -> 350 -> 375 -> 400 -> 425.

Yeah I could see these levels. Really sleeves off their vest given their size vis-a-vis peers. Might finally force larger shops like Skadden/Sidley to stagger pay in different markets

[Joachim2017]

predicting CSM to come over top. DPW made it too easy. Relatively cheap for a single office shop like Cravath. How many senior associates do they even have at this point?

215
225
250
295
340
365
385
400

Yeah, I could see Cravath or another major player cleaning this up in its announcement along these lines.

Not sure re the "cleaning it up." Part of the thinking, especially from a firm like DPW (recall their emails re optics at the start of the pandemic), is that clients are pretty well aware that juniors have less value. Yes yes, we know, the raise doesn't have to come out of the client's pocket, but clients still think in a way that makes it seem that it does, ultimately. So it makes sense, in a way, that raises on the eve of a slow-down (and war...?) skip the most junior year classes.

[Anonymous User]

I’d call this thread a draw since all the hysterical “V10 firms won’t match and are going permanently under-market” people were wrong (and were clearly wrong all along); but, as usual, the “maybe now we’ll see stratification and V10 pulling away from the rest” camp was also wrong.

ETA: So in broad strokes, this is all just a continuation of status quo. One of the lasting impacts of this raise cycle may be the timeline: I don’t think anyone at the start expected this to take a month to resolve. Not sure whether that’s something we’ll continue to see going forward.

[Anonymous User]

Just a thought of positivity: DPW failing to shatter the Milbank scale could be influenced by the anticipation of needing to award spring/fall bonuses consistent with last year.

[BrowsingTLS]

As a non-useless junior (who knows other non-useless juniors) fuck DPW.

[Anonymous User]

So do we think the rest of the v10 is going to match dpw's exact scale? More importantly (for me), what are the chances that they bump first years to 220?

[Anonymous User]

As a non-useless junior (who knows other non-useless juniors) fuck DPW.

Babe, we're all pretty useless.

[Anonymous User]

Just a thought of positivity: DPW failing to shatter the Milbank scale could be influenced by the anticipation of needing to award spring/fall bonuses consistent with last year.

Right. Weren’t those first announced in late March last year? If DPW waits to true people up until 3/15, they could be announcing spring bonuses before the subsequent paycheck… it could all be part of a master plan to maximize retention.

[Anonymous User]

predicting CSM to come over top. DPW made it too easy. Relatively cheap for a single office shop like Cravath. How many senior associates do they even have at this point?

215
225
250
295
340
365
385
400

Yeah, I could see Cravath or another major player cleaning this up in its announcement along these lines.

Not sure re the "cleaning it up." Part of the thinking, especially from a firm like DPW (recall their emails re optics at the start of the pandemic), is that clients are pretty well aware that juniors have less value. Yes yes, we know, the raise doesn't have to come out of the client's pocket, but clients still think in a way that makes it seem that it does, ultimately. So it makes sense, in a way, that raises on the eve of a slow-down (and war...?) skip the most junior year classes.

I mean cleaning up the odd-ball numbers, not necessarily adding comp for years 1-3

[Anonymous User]

I’d call this thread a draw since all the hysterical “V10 firms won’t match and are going permanently under-market” people were wrong (and were clearly wrong all along); but, as usual, the “maybe now we’ll see stratification and V10 pulling away from the rest” camp was also wrong.

ETA: So in broad strokes, this is all just a continuation of status quo. One of the lasting impacts of this raise cycle may be the timeline: I don’t think anyone at the start expected this to take a month to resolve. Not sure whether that’s something we’ll continue to see going forward.

I think this might be how it goes from now on. Most associates would probably prefer the true-up plus the long wait over a faster process with no backpay, and firms probably like the fact that it takes some of the pressure off them to match quickly.

[Anonymous User]

As a non-useless junior (who knows other non-useless juniors) fuck DPW.

I thought I was a non-useless junior when I was a junior, too. I was wrong.

[Anonymous User]

As a non-useless junior (who knows other non-useless juniors) fuck DPW.

I thought I was a non-useless junior when I was a junior, too. I was wrong.

Watch as I become less useful as the gap between my salary and mid-level's+ becomes larger.

[Anonymous User]

As a non-useless junior (who knows other non-useless juniors) fuck DPW.

I thought I was a non-useless junior when I was a junior, too. I was wrong.

Watch as I become less useful as the gap between my salary and mid-level's+ becomes larger.

Do you realize how little money we're talking about, after taxes? Not worth the emotion or frustration, TBH. Mental energy is real energy.

[Anonymous User]

What does DPW have against C/O 2021? First 202.5 and now this

Not to rehash the thread about junior availability, but if I’m a junior, I’m now even more incentivized to wait to respond any weekend and late night items until 9-5 business hours and say “sorry, my current workload does not allow for me to help with this request.”

Cool, then that junior should get fired. He/she just got a 10-15k raise (on top of their class year bump) for doing nothing more than continuing to work. He'll/she'll now make 215-250k base and maybe ~300k all-in depending on how special bonuses shake out. To essentially check commas. Junior associate worth is entirely about availability and working long hours. You're not getting paid these sums because of your great heart surgery technique.

[Anonymous User]

Just a thought of positivity: DPW failing to shatter the Milbank scale could be influenced by the anticipation of needing to award spring/fall bonuses consistent with last year.

Right. Weren’t those first announced in late March last year? If DPW waits to true people up until 3/15, they could be announcing spring bonuses before the subsequent paycheck… it could all be part of a master plan to maximize retention.

I still think there's a real chance spring / fall bonuses get announced. People need to calm the fuck down. There's a thread that was getting a lot of traction in January just before Milbank started this that was asking for predictions about whether (and if so, when) spring bonuses would get announced and the smart money was on "yes, March." Maybe that timing gets pushed back a tad but if the money continues to come in then I don't see why not. I still put it at better than even odds that there's some sort of mid-year special bonus announcement this year.

[jotarokujo]

What does DPW have against C/O 2021? First 202.5 and now this

Not to rehash the thread about junior availability, but if I’m a junior, I’m now even more incentivized to wait to respond any weekend and late night items until 9-5 business hours and say “sorry, my current workload does not allow for me to help with this request.”

Cool, then that junior should get fired. He/she just got a 10-15k raise (on top of their class year bump) for doing nothing more than continuing to work. He'll/she'll now make 215-250k base and maybe ~300k all-in depending on how special bonuses shake out. To essentially check commas. Junior associate worth is entirely about availability and working long hours. You're not getting paid these sums because of your great heart surgery technique.

they aren't getting paid for "availability" they are getting paid because that is what the market demands. what's "market" isn't constant availability on the part of juniors

[NoLongerALurker]

What does DPW have against C/O 2021? First 202.5 and now this

Not to rehash the thread about junior availability, but if I’m a junior, I’m now even more incentivized to wait to respond any weekend and late night items until 9-5 business hours and say “sorry, my current workload does not allow for me to help with this request.”

Cool, then that junior should get fired. He/she just got a 10-15k raise (on top of their class year bump) for doing nothing more than continuing to work. He'll/she'll now make 215-250k base and maybe ~300k all-in depending on how special bonuses shake out. To essentially check commas. Junior associate worth is entirely about availability and working long hours. You're not getting paid these sums because of your great heart surgery technique.

they aren't getting paid for "availability" they are getting paid because that is what the market demands. what's "market" isn't constant availability on the part of juniors

When the market tanks and firms are looking to trim the fat, availability on the part of juniors will become market. Agreed it isn’t now, though.

[Anonymous User]

So… any predictions for a third re-raise for years 1-3?

[Anonymous User]

What does DPW have against C/O 2021? First 202.5 and now this

Not to rehash the thread about junior availability, but if I’m a junior, I’m now even more incentivized to wait to respond any weekend and late night items until 9-5 business hours and say “sorry, my current workload does not allow for me to help with this request.”

Cool, then that junior should get fired. He/she just got a 10-15k raise (on top of their class year bump) for doing nothing more than continuing to work. He'll/she'll now make 215-250k base and maybe ~300k all-in depending on how special bonuses shake out. To essentially check commas. Junior associate worth is entirely about availability and working long hours. You're not getting paid these sums because of your great heart surgery technique.

they aren't getting paid for "availability" they are getting paid because that is what the market demands. what's "market" isn't constant availability on the part of juniors

(Guy from Kirkland's Salt Lake City office.) In all seriousness, the "market" for most biglaw firms in most cities has built in an expectation that if I e-mail you as a 27 year old 2nd year at 11pm at night you'll respond with a "will do" not a "sorry, you've reached me after ordinary business hours." That's a major reason the pay is what it is in biglaw. We all acknowledge attrition is up but it isn't up so significantly that that fundamental piece of the model has changed.

[Anonymous User]

So… any predictions for a third re-raise for years 1-3?

Looking at some of the posts in this thread, it seems our worth is somewhere between "incredibly high" and "overpaid comma checkers." Given that the partners at my firm hate to check their own commas, I'd say we are 100% getting re-raises.

[Anonymous User]

So… any predictions for a third re-raise for years 1-3?

Looking at some of the posts in this thread, it seems our worth is somewhere between "incredibly high" and "overpaid comma checkers." Given that the partners at my firm hate to check their own commas, I'd say we are 100% getting re-raises.

Hey, to defend myself as the "comma chaser" guy, I don't think juniors are overpaid. I think they're paid about what they should be given how we're billing and the $ we're bringing in. I'm just pointing out that that pay comes with certain expectations and I thought it was pretty galling to see that one comment complaining about how they think juniors are entitled to go to a 9-5 model because they've "only" gotten a 10-15k raise (to the tune of maybe 250k-300k all-in now). Thank

[Anonymous User]

Just a thought of positivity: DPW failing to shatter the Milbank scale could be influenced by the anticipation of needing to award spring/fall bonuses consistent with last year.

Right. Weren’t those first announced in late March last year? If DPW waits to true people up until 3/15, they could be announcing spring bonuses before the subsequent paycheck… it could all be part of a master plan to maximize retention.

I still think there's a real chance spring / fall bonuses get announced. People need to calm the fuck down. There's a thread that was getting a lot of traction in January just before Milbank started this that was asking for predictions about whether (and if so, when) spring bonuses would get announced and the smart money was on "yes, March." Maybe that timing gets pushed back a tad but if the money continues to come in then I don't see why not. I still put it at better than even odds that there's some sort of mid-year special bonus announcement this year.

isn't cap markets deal flow finally slowing down? I have absolutely nothing against more money for us, but confused as to why bonuses would be on the table when everyone is dragging their feet to match Milbank and things finally seem to be slowing a bit after two busy years

[Anonymous User]

What does DPW have against C/O 2021? First 202.5 and now this

Not to rehash the thread about junior availability, but if I’m a junior, I’m now even more incentivized to wait to respond any weekend and late night items until 9-5 business hours and say “sorry, my current workload does not allow for me to help with this request.”

Cool, then that junior should get fired. He/she just got a 10-15k raise (on top of their class year bump) for doing nothing more than continuing to work. He'll/she'll now make 215-250k base and maybe ~300k all-in depending on how special bonuses shake out. To essentially check commas. Junior associate worth is entirely about availability and working long hours. You're not getting paid these sums because of your great heart surgery technique.

Yeah, fire the junior and check the commas yourself, I mean all through this thread mid levels and seniors have been talking about how much spare capacity to do more work they have. Shouldn't be a problem.

[Anonymous User]

What does DPW have against C/O 2021? First 202.5 and now this

Not to rehash the thread about junior availability, but if I’m a junior, I’m now even more incentivized to wait to respond any weekend and late night items until 9-5 business hours and say “sorry, my current workload does not allow for me to help with this request.”

Cool, then that junior should get fired. He/she just got a 10-15k raise (on top of their class year bump) for doing nothing more than continuing to work. He'll/she'll now make 215-250k base and maybe ~300k all-in depending on how special bonuses shake out. To essentially check commas. Junior associate worth is entirely about availability and working long hours. You're not getting paid these sums because of your great heart surgery technique.

they aren't getting paid for "availability" they are getting paid because that is what the market demands. what's "market" isn't constant availability on the part of juniors

(Guy from Kirkland's Salt Lake City office.) In all seriousness, the "market" for most biglaw firms in most cities has built in an expectation that if I e-mail you as a 27 year old 2nd year at 11pm at night you'll respond with a "will do" not a "sorry, you've reached me after ordinary business hours." That's a major reason the pay is what it is in biglaw. We all acknowledge attrition is up but it isn't up so significantly that that fundamental piece of the model has changed.

You sound miserable to work for. Other juniors, don't let people tell you you're worth so little. Unless you want to make partner. Then you have no worth and should grind until you can't take it.

Source -- Second year in good standing with great reviews, who would either ignore your email until the morning or reply with a "will look in the morning."