NYC to 200k Forum

[Anonymous User]

Somewhat but not nearly as bad as at NYU.

You think NYU fetishizes biglaw more than CLS? Just lol

That person must go to such a TTT he doesn't even know an NYU grad or a CLS grad. Rare to meet an NYU grad with a bad attitude, and rare to meet a CLS grad with a good one.

Funny, but I went to H/Y/S/Chicago (won’t say which one to protect anonymity) and summered at a V8 last summer, so I know plenty of grads from other schools.

[bruinfan10]

Now I understand why this thread is complete trash. You’re all baby law students.

[Anonymous User]

Somewhat but not nearly as bad as at NYU.

You think NYU fetishizes biglaw more than CLS? Just lol

That person must go to such a TTT he doesn't even know an NYU grad or a CLS grad. Rare to meet an NYU grad with a bad attitude, and rare to meet a CLS grad with a good one.

Funny, but I went to Chicago .

There we go.

[Anonymous User]

CLS grads angry they wasted their 3 year law school vacation in the middle of nowhere surrounded by awful people only to be rewarded with biglaw

[Anonymous User]

CLS grads angry they wasted their 3 year law school vacation in the middle of nowhere surrounded by awful people only to be rewarded with biglaw

I almost feel bad that I coasted in college, took it relatively easy at a T40 law school, work less hours and make more than them working at TX firm. But then, I remember, I'm only middle class, so I shouldn't really feel bad for others. Haven't gotten to that level yet.

[Anonymous User]

CLS grads angry they wasted their 3 year law school vacation in the middle of nowhere surrounded by awful people only to be rewarded with biglaw

I almost feel bad that I coasted in college, took it relatively easy at a T40 law school, work less hours and make more than them working at TX firm. But then, I remember, I'm only middle class, so I shouldn't really feel bad for others. Haven't gotten to that level yet.

Oh no, we're in for the NY-has-bodegas conversation again.

In other news, I wonder when we'll hear from the Kirkland/Latham modeled firms. Sidley attorney wondering re bonus match here...

[Anonymous User]

CLS grads angry they wasted their 3 year law school vacation in the middle of nowhere surrounded by awful people only to be rewarded with biglaw

I almost feel bad that I coasted in college, took it relatively easy at a T40 law school, work less hours and make more than them working at TX firm. But then, I remember, I'm only middle class, so I shouldn't really feel bad for others. Haven't gotten to that level yet.

Yeah but if you don't have prestige you have nothing. Aren't you embarrassed when you tell people where you went to school? Even the worst kid at Harvard gets auto-respect from 99% of the population.

[Anonymous User]

TBF I'd probably turn down Williams & Connolly for most V10 firms.

I'd take Keker/MTO/Susman over any V10 firm in a heartbeat. I'd take Bartlit Beck over any of those, not billing hours is GOAT.

These firms command top talent because law students can live off of prestige. And some pay above market. Kellogg's starting salary is 225k.

Also, what's with all the salty people ITT who couldn't get interviews/callbacks at lit boutiques lmao.

Not only does Kellogg pay 225k but their clerk bonus is 175k. I imagine productivity dropped in many chambers besides ours when that recruitment letter arrived, at least until everyone realized they didn’t really have a shot anyway.

[Anonymous User]

When are flood gates going to open, or are matches just going to trickle in for weeks?

I feel like only 3 matches isn't much for 2 days after the Cravath announcement.

[Anonymous User]

CLS grads angry they wasted their 3 year law school vacation in the middle of nowhere surrounded by awful people only to be rewarded with biglaw

I almost feel bad that I coasted in college, took it relatively easy at a T40 law school, work less hours and make more than them working at TX firm. But then, I remember, I'm only middle class, so I shouldn't really feel bad for others. Haven't gotten to that level yet.

No, you'd be middle class in NY, but you're almost certainly upper-middle class in TX.

[Anonymous User]

When are flood gates going to open, or are matches just going to trickle in for weeks?

I feel like only 3 matches isn't much for 2 days after the Cravath announcement.

I'm not sure why the V10 isn't moving faster. I feel like firms further down the rankings (and profitability scale) are trying to wait to see where the cutoff for summer bonuses ends up. Or maybe just waiting until after June 29 so that the problem solves itself.

[Anonymous User]

As other posters have already told so, the relationship between big-law and the top 14 schools is still quite stable in number of job openings vs amount of graduates. This 190k is basically for one year of training and talent retention; thus, considering that these firms bill hundreds of millions, and some billions of dollars a year, 190k is just another cost.

If you factor in inflation from 2016, when it went to 180k from 160k in 2007, salaries have barely kept up, and have not increased nominally in 11 years. Of course, this 190k per year is only applicable to a niche of the legal profession, and not in general.

Of course, a 26 year old just out of post-graduate school is not worth 190k per year. If you extrapolate it to the rest of the legal market, in reality these people are working three 65k jobs in a year. In order to get to 2000 or more billable hours, you need to work 12 hours per day, almost every day of the year. So in reality, big-law junior associates are indeed worth more than the average 40k per year, cookie-cuter junior associate from the rest of the 200 or so schools; worth double actually, though they are forced to work harder and longer than almost everybody else.

In the real world, there are dozens of alternative legal providers that offer (almost) the same service at a fraction of the cost, but the value that people adscribe to things is not always logical. This is why people still buy gold, jewelry, designer clothing and Swiss watches: these items range from completely useless to easily replaceable by cheaper, practical and more durable goods. Big law is the same, except for the very top white-shoe areas of the very, very top firms (clue: the top 15, not the other 75 or so big law firms).

TLDR: CLS alumni are elitist, TX sucks and should get paid less, and Bodegas are awesome. WHERE'S OUR MONEY

[Anonymous User]

As other posters have already told so, the relationship between big-law and the top 14 schools is still quite stable in number of job openings vs amount of graduates. This 190k is basically for one year of training and talent retention; thus, considering that these firms bill hundreds of millions, and some billions of dollars a year, 190k is just another cost.

If you factor in inflation from 2016, when it went to 180k from 160k in 2007, salaries have barely kept up, and have not increased nominally in 11 years. Of course, this 190k per year is only applicable to a niche of the legal profession, and not in general.

Of course, a 26 year old just out of post-graduate school is not worth 190k per year. If you extrapolate it to the rest of the legal market, in reality these people are working three 65k jobs in a year. In order to get to 2000 or more billable hours, you need to work 12 hours per day, almost every day of the year. So in reality, big-law junior associates are indeed worth more than the average 40k per year, cookie-cuter junior associate from the rest of the 200 or so schools; worth double actually, though they are forced to work harder and longer than almost everybody else.

In the real world, there are dozens of alternative legal providers that offer (almost) the same service at a fraction of the cost, but the value that people adscribe to things is not always logical. This is why people still buy gold, jewelry, designer clothing and Swiss watches: these items range from completely useless to easily replaceable by cheaper, practical and more durable goods. Big law is the same, except for the very top white-shoe areas of the very, very top firms (clue: the top 15, not the other 75 or so big law firms).

I'm sure others will poke holes in the rest of your argument, but I'm really confused as to how 12 hours per day is required to hit 2k hours. Even assuming that this hypothetical first year takes a month of vacation, that's still (11/12)*365*12=4,015 hours a year. I can't imagine first years are at only 50% conversion of hours to billables. Even if you're assuming they take weekends too, that's still (11/12)*(5//7)*365*12=2,868 hours a year. That's assuming a 70% conversion rate which is still low to get to your 2k hours.

Anecdotally, I'm a first year at a V30 that's billing at a rate of >2300 a year and has only worked two or three weekends this year (and I've taken a vacation!). I spend 12 or so hours a day in the office 3-4 days a week, but this is a far cry from your 12 hours a day almost every day of the year.

[Anonymous User]

Westchester county and southern connecticut is in the house here for sure

[Anonymous User]

I'm sure others will poke holes in the rest of your argument, but I'm really confused as to how 12 hours per day is required to hit 2k hours. Even assuming that this hypothetical first year takes a month of vacation, that's still (11/12)*365*12=4,015 hours a year. I can't imagine first years are at only 50% conversion of hours to billables. Even if you're assuming they take weekends too, that's still (11/12)*(5//7)*365*12=2,868 hours a year. That's assuming a 70% conversion rate which is still low to get to your 2k hours.

Anecdotally, I'm a first year at a V30 that's billing at a rate of >2300 a year and has only worked two or three weekends this year (and I've taken a vacation!). I spend 12 or so hours a day in the office 3-4 days a week, but this is a far cry from your 12 hours a day almost every day of the year.

You god damn monster. Of course we deserve weekends.

70% conversion rate as a first year is really good for some groups. It really is group dependent.

It's better to look at Midlevels. Most midlevels, hopefully, get to around 85-90% conversion rate, especially in this economy. The real key comes in how you deal with your procrastination because no one can stay attentive 24/5 all week every second for years at a time. If you fail at this, your conversion rate will plummet.

[Anonymous User]

I'm sure others will poke holes in the rest of your argument, but I'm really confused as to how 12 hours per day is required to hit 2k hours. Even assuming that this hypothetical first year takes a month of vacation, that's still (11/12)*365*12=4,015 hours a year. I can't imagine first years are at only 50% conversion of hours to billables. Even if you're assuming they take weekends too, that's still (11/12)*(5//7)*365*12=2,868 hours a year. That's assuming a 70% conversion rate which is still low to get to your 2k hours.

Anecdotally, I'm a first year at a V30 that's billing at a rate of >2300 a year and has only worked two or three weekends this year (and I've taken a vacation!). I spend 12 or so hours a day in the office 3-4 days a week, but this is a far cry from your 12 hours a day almost every day of the year.

You god damn monster. Of course we deserve weekends.

70% conversion rate as a first year is really good for some groups. It really is group dependent.

It's better to look at Midlevels. Most midlevels, hopefully, get to around 85-90% conversion rate, especially in this economy. The real key comes in how you deal with your procrastination because no one can stay attentive 24/5 all week every second for years at a time. If you fail at this, your conversion rate will plummet.

Original first year anon here. I'll get my conversion rate up if... NYC GOES TO $200K LETS GO SKADDEN/LATHAM/KIRKLAND!!!

[Anonymous User]

*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****

Has anyone been monitoring this thread from page 1? My firm's Chief Operating Officer just emailed me and asked for a max 1,500 word summary of the key points by 8AM tomorrow for a meeting. Hoping to get this done in the next hour and a half. Obviously I'll include the list of firms that raised and matched, along with any differences in the group. Are there any other points I should include? TYIA.

If you're not able to reply by 1:30AM please share your thoughts nonetheless I'll recheck at 6:30AM tomorrow.

This is not flame.

*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****

[Anonymous User]

*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****

Has anyone been monitoring this thread from page 1? My firm's Chief Operating Officer just emailed me and asked for a max 1,500 word summary of the key points by 8AM tomorrow for a meeting. Hoping to get this done in the next hour and a half. Obviously I'll include the list of firms that raised and matched, along with any differences in the group. Are there any other points I should include? TYIA.

If you're not able to reply by 1:30AM please share your thoughts nonetheless I'll recheck at 6:30AM tomorrow.

This is not flame.

*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****

ur trolling

[Anonymous User]

*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****

Has anyone been monitoring this thread from page 1? My firm's Chief Operating Officer just emailed me and asked for a max 1,500 word summary of the key points by 8AM tomorrow for a meeting. Hoping to get this done in the next hour and a half. Obviously I'll include the list of firms that raised and matched, along with any differences in the group. Are there any other points I should include? TYIA.

If you're not able to reply by 1:30AM please share your thoughts nonetheless I'll recheck at 6:30AM tomorrow.

This is not flame.

*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****

Tell him to prioritize hiring Yale/Columbia grads and to cut TX office salaries to fund your raise for your high CoL offices (SF/NYC/DC).

[Anonymous User]

*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****

Has anyone been monitoring this thread from page 1? My firm's Chief Operating Officer just emailed me and asked for a max 1,500 word summary of the key points by 8AM tomorrow for a meeting. Hoping to get this done in the next hour and a half. Obviously I'll include the list of firms that raised and matched, along with any differences in the group. Are there any other points I should include? TYIA.

If you're not able to reply by 1:30AM please share your thoughts nonetheless I'll recheck at 6:30AM tomorrow.

This is not flame.

*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****

Great question, and your sincerity is obvious so no need to worry that others will regard your post as unserious.

The TL;DR is that associates as a group widely expect 200k and corresponding raises up the seniority scale and anything less will invariably be viewed as a middle finger to the middle class working folk grinding away at these firms.

[Anonymous User]

*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****

Has anyone been monitoring this thread from page 1? My firm's Chief Operating Officer just emailed me and asked for a max 1,500 word summary of the key points by 8AM tomorrow for a meeting. Hoping to get this done in the next hour and a half. Obviously I'll include the list of firms that raised and matched, along with any differences in the group. Are there any other points I should include? TYIA.

If you're not able to reply by 1:30AM please share your thoughts nonetheless I'll recheck at 6:30AM tomorrow.

This is not flame.

*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****

Tell him to prioritize hiring Yale/Columbia grads and to cut TX office salaries to fund your raise for your high CoL offices (SF/NYC/DC).

I am not to editorialize in any way. He just wants the key points from this thread for his meeting. I'm flipping through it and think I'm getting most things.

[Anonymous User]

*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****

Has anyone been monitoring this thread from page 1? My firm's Chief Operating Officer just emailed me and asked for a max 1,500 word summary of the key points by 8AM tomorrow for a meeting. Hoping to get this done in the next hour and a half. Obviously I'll include the list of firms that raised and matched, along with any differences in the group. Are there any other points I should include? TYIA.

If you're not able to reply by 1:30AM please share your thoughts nonetheless I'll recheck at 6:30AM tomorrow.

This is not flame.

*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****

Great question, and your sincerity is obvious so no need to worry that others will regard your post as unserious.

The TL;DR is that associates as a group widely expect 200k and corresponding raises up the seniority scale and anything less will invariably be viewed as a middle finger to the middle class working folk grinding away at these firms.

Yes one of the bullets is that "Readers are disappointed with the amount of raise, and the length of time it takes to provide such raise. They unanimously expected all firms to go to $200,000 for first years by June 6 at the latest. However, Cravath's refusal to go above $190,000 dashed their hopes."

[Anonymous User]

*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****

Has anyone been monitoring this thread from page 1? My firm's Chief Operating Officer just emailed me and asked for a max 1,500 word summary of the key points by 8AM tomorrow for a meeting. Hoping to get this done in the next hour and a half. Obviously I'll include the list of firms that raised and matched, along with any differences in the group. Are there any other points I should include? TYIA.

If you're not able to reply by 1:30AM please share your thoughts nonetheless I'll recheck at 6:30AM tomorrow.

This is not flame.

*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****PLEASE READ*****

Great question, and your sincerity is obvious so no need to worry that others will regard your post as unserious.

The TL;DR is that associates as a group widely expect 200k and corresponding raises up the seniority scale and anything less will invariably be viewed as a middle finger to the middle class working folk grinding away at these firms.

Yes one of the bullets is that "Readers are disappointed with the amount of raise, and the length of time it takes to provide such raise. They unanimously expected all firms to go to $200,000 for first years by June 6 at the latest. However, Cravath's refusal to go above $190,000 dashed their hopes."

Not a bad bullet, but more true to the content of this thread would be: "Readers are disappointed with the limited amount of raise, and the length of time it takes to provide incremental raises largely viewed as priced below cost of living adjustments. Posters unanimously expected all firms to go to $200,000 or higher for first years. Cravath's reluctance to go above $190,000 coupled with continued silence from other top movers has raised expectations that a new market leader will emerge in coming days."

[Anonymous User]

Thanks. The COLA point is a separate bullet because I have to fill this memo.

"Fueling their resentment -- readers calculated that $160,000 in 2008 is, adjusted for inflation, equivalent to approximately $199,000 today. This calculation was echoed on legal sites such as Above The Law."

"Readers said that once things settle, they would immediately seek to lateral to the market leader in salaries. A debate ensued over whether such a move was worth an extra $10,000 to $20,000 per year, but it was quickly and near unanimously resolved in favor of a move, with respondents noting the high cost of living in Manhattan and student loan payments."

"Greenberg Traurig published a letter warning against a raise, but they were swiftly lambasted by readers and websites such as Above The Law. See e.g., Elie Mystal, Greenberg Traurig Explains Why It’s Too Cheap To Raise Associate Salaries, Above The Law (June 13, 2018) available at https://abovethelaw.com/2018/06/greenbe ... -salaries/.

"Readers noted that if firms are sincerely concerned about the cost of legal services and their clients, they should reduce the growth of their ever-increasing profits per partner as well."

[Anonymous User]

V5 midlevel here but I don’t give a fuck abt my V5 and have zero loyalty to it bc it is a cheap POS (not DPW altho those posts still hilarious) I can’t fucking wait for the day that associates everywhere wake the fuck up and ding our Vault ranking cuz we don’t deserve it.

1. Skipped past all the posts debating which city is better. Honestly all you non-NYC bitches need to stfu. If you’re at a “national” firm, I PROMISE you that your NY offices subsidize the fuck out you. I don’t care what your nominal billable rate is. It’s either discounted or you’re not billing enough to be competitive with your New York office re revenue. I’m more than willing to concede that your quality of life is better. Ofc it is. New York ducking blows. but no one should pretend that you deserve to be paid the same as your NY counterparts unless you’re a litigation-heavy firm or lit boutique. LOL @ you SF/TX mofos thinking you generate enough revenue to be on equal footing with your NY peers. A part of me dies every time we have to pick up an engagement with an “up and coming startup client” from our California office at like 2/3 discount.

2. Did someone seriously ask if Proskauer NOLA matched?Why does Proskauer even have a NOLA office. Fucking gross.

3. Whoever said KE Houston is more profitable than NY had no idea wtf they’re talking abt. I’m not KE but it’s clear as day that your NY and DC offices are carrying the other offices re revenue and selectivity, respectively. Don’t get me wrong, if I was to work in TX, it would be KE.

4. Fuck you remaining V10’s (including my firm). You fucking pussies. Fucking losers.