Check out top-law-schools.com Forum

[bearsfan23]

Since we're sharing Winston stories...

I have a bad impression of them because of my OCI screener last year. You would think Chicago would be a school they would really want to target for their Chicago office, but they sent a young associate who had literally just lateraled there and a partner who may have been the most boring human being of all time. 3 minutes in and I just wanted it to be over.

Plus (at least last year) they were doing some sort of weird callback mixer instead of normal callback interviews. I'm not sure what they were thinking with that.

[BaberhamLincoln]

Plus (at least last year) they were doing some sort of weird callback mixer instead of normal callback interviews. I'm not sure what they were thinking with that.

Apparently a few firms are doing this now.
I can think of two off the top of my head that aren't Winston that are in Chi changing their format to a few interviews followed by a group reception. Maybe they want to see if you can handle a light drinking event/seeing your competition in the room with/being overwhelmed by lots of people and able to make connections on your own. No idea.

I have this format for a CB tomorrow. Will report on awkwardness.

[skers]

Drinks seems like a win.

[Johann]

I understand what people are saying about Winston but I honestly think that people's calculus is wrong. While what Winston did in 2012 was shitty, they also know that it has tremendously adversely affected their reputation with law students and are thus actually more likely than other firms to give 100% offers. See this story on their website from last year:

http://www.winston.com/en/careers-winst ... iates.html

All in all I think they're less likely to no offer people than the average firm, given their history. Other firms have made a practice of no offering 10-20% of their class consistently and don't get the flack that Winston does for 1 year.

Just like the dude who starts dating the side piece always tells the side piece she is different until its too late. You're clueless. Winston is really ruthless with its up or out model too. I would take Winston before K&L Gates, but again if you get Winston, presumably you got other options. Rankings something like:
Katten/Kirkland/Skadden/MayerBrown
Sidley (reluctantly cheap but way better than any of the below)
Jones Day (black box shit on workers)
Perkins Coie (below market)
McDermott (sweat shop)
Winston
K&L Gates

Im assuming this is a chicago list
Wheres jenner

list aint comprehensive. obviously at the top. and the difference between sidley and the top would be nitpicking too. just did it to make a tier to show where winsTTTon belonged.

[BaberhamLincoln]

Need cite for Perkins being below market

[jbagelboy]

Drinks seems like a win.

freshfields did this in new york and I hated it. they had the reception with wine and food before the interviews. it was fucking retarded TBH. Shame because I like a lot of other parts of the firm.

[Johann]

Need cite for Perkins being below market

that was off the top of my head. i thought the paid 120 or 130. billable hour requirement is 1800 though too i think. i researched it at one point when i was applying there which was not this year so maybe thats old data and i could be misremembering.

if that's wrong just shove in another non market/lifestyle firm there like quarles and brady.

[Desert Fox]

[Anonymous User]

Winston is really ruthless with its up or out model too.

Describe please.

Katten/Kirkland/Skadden/Mayer Brown
Sidley
Jones Day
Perkins Coie
McDermott
Winston
K&L Gates

Would this hold up for litigation as well? I always thought Winston had a strong litigation group compared to the other Chi-based firms.

[wiz]

Need cite for Perkins being below market

that was off the top of my head. i thought the paid 120 or 130. billable hour requirement is 1800 though too i think. i researched it at one point when i was applying there which was not this year so maybe thats old data and i could be misremembering.

http://www.lawfirmstats.com/firms/Perki ... sation.php

145k in Chicago but as low as 80k in other markets.

NALP says 160k in Chicago but as low as 100k in other markets (and 125k in Seattle HQ).

https://www.nalpdirectory.com/employer_ ... kins%22%7D

[Johann]

that is a half assed ranking based on where i would want to be purely on the economics and track record of the firm. it's not group specific and should be taken with a major grain of salt. DLA Piper prolly sucks but if you want to do real estate and/or real estate tax seems like the best group in Chicago. Same sort of thing for all of those. It's also mainly a joke because it only includes a few firms.

The up and out model is a guess, but I see more Winston laterals comapred to other firms. Granted, some of these laterals may have been around the time it chopped its SA class so maybe everyone just left Winston that year fearing for the worst. I've also seen and heard if a Chicago firm has a good lateral opening, chances are (anecdotally) a Winston associate is applying. The fact so many people try to lateral out and actually did lateral out just makes me wonder if they all see the writing on the wall in year 2/3.

If winston has a strong litigation group, go there. I dno't know a thing about litigation.

[Johann]

Need cite for Perkins being below market

that was off the top of my head. i thought the paid 120 or 130. billable hour requirement is 1800 though too i think. i researched it at one point when i was applying there which was not this year so maybe thats old data and i could be misremembering.

http://www.lawfirmstats.com/firms/Perki ... sation.php

145k in Chicago but as low as 80k in other markets.

NALP says 160k in Chicago but as low as 100k in other markets (and 125k in Seattle HQ).

https://www.nalpdirectory.com/employer_ ... kins%22%7D

Damn 7 years for partnership and no 2-tiered partnership. 1950 billables. Go ahead and move Perkins to the top of that list.

edit #1 (currently browsing for experienced associate needs on website)
edit #2 - holy shit they have 4 pages of open laterals. perkins killing it.

[El Pollito]

I understand what people are saying about Winston but I honestly think that people's calculus is wrong. While what Winston did in 2012 was shitty, they also know that it has tremendously adversely affected their reputation with law students and are thus actually more likely than other firms to give 100% offers. See this story on their website from last year:

http://www.winston.com/en/careers-winst ... iates.html

All in all I think they're less likely to no offer people than the average firm, given their history. Other firms have made a practice of no offering 10-20% of their class consistently and don't get the flack that Winston does for 1 year.

Nice try Winston recruiting.

[Desert Fox]

[rpupkin]

I have heard you can make partner easy at perkins. A bunch of people from my group lateraled there right before I started and went right into partner.

But just because it's one tiered doesn't mean comp is lockstep. You can create a comp structure that reflects billables and business brought that means a partner really only eats what they kill. It wouldn't surprise me if some partners are making like 200k.

At many firms you take an effective pay cut when you move from senior associate to junior partner. Base share can be lower than senior associate salary and you have to pay partnership taxes. And, of course, many of these junior "partner" positions are non-equity. Partnership is flame at many places.

[BaberhamLincoln]

Need cite for Perkins being below market

that was off the top of my head. i thought the paid 120 or 130. billable hour requirement is 1800 though too i think. i researched it at one point when i was applying there which was not this year so maybe thats old data and i could be misremembering.

http://www.lawfirmstats.com/firms/Perki ... sation.php

145k in Chicago but as low as 80k in other markets.

160 in chi. 1950 billable in chi. Guess that cite isn't updated.

Some markets lower billable

[Johann]

Aren't all equity partnership positions at least somewhat based on firm profits? I refuse to believe one equity partner at a non K&L Gates firm in the V100 in a major market made less than 400k in the last couple years. Even if your salary is $100k or something, partnership profit shares will boost you up a lot because firms have had so much leftover money.

[Johann]

I have heard you can make partner easy at perkins. A bunch of people from my group lateraled there right before I started and went right into partner.

But just because it's one tiered doesn't mean comp is lockstep. You can create a comp structure that reflects billables and business brought that means a partner really only eats what they kill. It wouldn't surprise me if some partners are making like 200k.

At many firms you take an effective pay cut when you move from senior associate to junior partner. Base share can be lower than senior associate salary and you have to pay partnership taxes. And, of course, many of these junior "partner" positions are non-equity. Partnership is flame at many places.

They only have equity partners though is the point.

[Tiago Splitter]

Aren't all equity partnership positions at least somewhat based on firm profits? I refuse to believe one equity partner at a non K&L Gates firm in the V100 in a major market made less than 400k in the last couple years. Even if your salary is $100k or something, partnership profit shares will boost you up a lot because firms have had so much leftover money.

Do they get any guaranteed salary? I'd assume not. And the capital contribution eats up some of that income in the early years. With seniors making 400k these days it's not crazy to think you'd take a step down for a year or two as a newly minted partner.

[Anonymous User]

Aren't all equity partnership positions at least somewhat based on firm profits? I refuse to believe one equity partner at a non K&L Gates firm in the V100 in a major market made less than 400k in the last couple years. Even if your salary is $100k or something, partnership profit shares will boost you up a lot because firms have had so much leftover money.

I am 100%, categorically, absolutely sure you are wrong. Multiple family members that are equity partners at NYC V100s made less than that within the last 2 years. You are vastly overstating partner comp (a common problem on this board).

I have been told that as a rule of thumb, comp for the least compensated partners can be a third or less of a firm's average RPL.

[Anonymous User]

Aren't all equity partnership positions at least somewhat based on firm profits? I refuse to believe one equity partner at a non K&L Gates firm in the V100 in a major market made less than 400k in the last couple years. Even if your salary is $100k or something, partnership profit shares will boost you up a lot because firms have had so much leftover money.

Do they get any guaranteed salary? I'd assume not. And the capital contribution eats up some of that income in the early years. With seniors making 400k these days it's not crazy to think you'd take a step down for a year or two as a newly minted partner.

At my firm, the lowest paid partner booked ~$1.2m last year. I doubt anyone making that much is taking a step down even after all the extra partner bs.

[rpupkin]

At my firm, the lowest paid partner booked ~$1.2m last year. I doubt anyone making that much is taking a step down even after all the extra partner bs.

You either work at an unusual law firm or are misreading/misunderstanding something.

ETA: If by "booked" you mean brought in 1.2m in billables (through the partner's own billable time as well as the billable time of associates to whom the partner assigned work), I could believe that. But, of course, the junior partner's share would be a fraction of that figure.

[Johann]

Aren't all equity partnership positions at least somewhat based on firm profits? I refuse to believe one equity partner at a non K&L Gates firm in the V100 in a major market made less than 400k in the last couple years. Even if your salary is $100k or something, partnership profit shares will boost you up a lot because firms have had so much leftover money.

Do they get any guaranteed salary? I'd assume not. And the capital contribution eats up some of that income in the early years. With seniors making 400k these days it's not crazy to think you'd take a step down for a year or two as a newly minted partner.

oh the capital contribution makes sense, but that's bought out later right, so i just kinda washed that out.

and to the anon after tiago, interesting.

edit - i dont really know how partner compensation works, but based on the Dewey article and other non-legal partnerships it's not that unusual to pay some guaranteed money to people. obviously you try to pay as little as possible for tax benefits.

[Anonymous User]

At my firm, the lowest paid partner booked ~$1.2m last year. I doubt anyone making that much is taking a step down even after all the extra partner bs.

You either work at an unusual law firm or are misreading/misunderstanding something.

ETA: If by "booked" you mean brought in 1.2m in billables (through the partner's own billable time as well as the billable time of associates to whom the partner assigned work), I could believe that. But, of course, the junior partner's share would be a fraction of that figure.

It's a global V30 firm. The gross pay of the lowest paid partner at the firm I was at was ~$1.2m. This came up in the context of a discussion about counsel v. jr partner compensation and, when you look at the PPP, it makes sense that a jr partner is taking home ~1/2 of that with more senior partners probably getting 2-3x that.

[Anonymous User]

Need cite for Perkins being below market

that was off the top of my head. i thought the paid 120 or 130. billable hour requirement is 1800 though too i think. i researched it at one point when i was applying there which was not this year so maybe thats old data and i could be misremembering.

http://www.lawfirmstats.com/firms/Perki ... sation.php

145k in Chicago but as low as 80k in other markets.

NALP says 160k in Chicago but as low as 100k in other markets (and 125k in Seattle HQ).

https://www.nalpdirectory.com/employer_ ... kins%22%7D

Damn 7 years for partnership and no 2-tiered partnership. 1950 billables. Go ahead and move Perkins to the top of that list.

edit #1 (currently browsing for experienced associate needs on website)
edit #2 - holy shit they have 4 pages of open laterals. perkins killing it.

Maybe as a lateral. As a law student?
Number of 2014 Summer 2Ls considered for associate offers: 3
Number of offers made to summer 2L associates: 2

Pass