Milbank/Davis Polk/Cravath Scale: NYC to 215-415k Forum

[Anonymous User]

Just for shits & giggles, can somebody please compile a list of all the V20 websites that still have boilerplate "we offer market-leading compensation" or "we pay competitive salaries" (et cetera) on their career pages?

[Anonymous User]

This. I'm very sympathetic to bashing YSH alums, gunners who brag about their clerkships, and so on. But the problem is that this sort of elitism permeates the entire profession through and through. Yalies will turn their nose at the rest of the profession. Harvard people won't stop talking about HYS. Duke lawyers always talk about the "T10." Georgetowners think UCLA and Vandy are beneath them. Litigators with clerkships think corp bros are beneath them. V10 corp bros in NYC worship Vault. T50 people always talk about T50. I still remember when Covid first hit, rando lawyers from T200 schools were the ones who were most viciously against Diploma Privilege. Because being admitted to the bar is a "badge of honor" that had to be earned.

I'm going through my first law review submission cycle, and there's an ongoing Spring Submission 2022 thread and spreadsheet on Reddit full of law professors and aspiring ones updating everyone on their offers and rejections. The funniest aspect is how people talk about their offers. "I just got an offer from a T53 flagship." "I'm sitting on an offer from a T6 specialty. Should I expedite to all the T75 flagships or just do 75 to 25?" Apparently there's a T150, T140, T120, T100, T90, T80, T75, T60, T53, T50, T40, T30, T25, T20, T15, T14, T13, T10, T6, and HYS. Basically just look at the ranking of the law school whose flagship or specialty journal gave you an offer, and start the tier from there.

Anyways, as a Columbia grad, I think "T4 minus Chicago" is a very fair tier to establish.

LMFAO. I love this, especially that there's a "T15, T14, AND T13." Also, iirc (from my days on the board of a "T13 flagship" LR), there's not really a 100% match between USNWR law school rankings and LR rankings. e.g. Cornell Law Review might punch above its weight while NYU is not as great as expected or something like that (I'm making those specific examples up) when you factor in number of citations, preftige of authors, etc. There's some totally separate ranking for law reviews I think, because of course there is.

[Anonymous User]

LMFAO. I love this, especially that there's a "T15, T14, AND T13." Also, iirc (from my days on the board of a "T13 flagship" LR), there's not really a 100% match between USNWR law school rankings and LR rankings. e.g. Cornell Law Review might punch above its weight while NYU is not as great as expected or something like that (I'm making those specific examples up) when you factor in number of citations, preftige of authors, etc. There's some totally separate ranking for law reviews I think, because of course there is.

Your random example is not too far off, since Cornell (#16) and Fordham (#18) LRs both rank above NYU (#23). https://managementtools4.wlu.edu/LawJournals/

[Saami]

This. I'm very sympathetic to bashing YSH alums, gunners who brag about their clerkships, and so on. But the problem is that this sort of elitism permeates the entire profession through and through. Yalies will turn their nose at the rest of the profession. Harvard people won't stop talking about HYS. Duke lawyers always talk about the "T10." Georgetowners think UCLA and Vandy are beneath them. Litigators with clerkships think corp bros are beneath them. V10 corp bros in NYC worship Vault. T50 people always talk about T50. I still remember when Covid first hit, rando lawyers from T200 schools were the ones who were most viciously against Diploma Privilege. Because being admitted to the bar is a "badge of honor" that had to be earned.

I'm going through my first law review submission cycle, and there's an ongoing Spring Submission 2022 thread and spreadsheet on Reddit full of law professors and aspiring ones updating everyone on their offers and rejections. The funniest aspect is how people talk about their offers. "I just got an offer from a T53 flagship." "I'm sitting on an offer from a T6 specialty. Should I expedite to all the T75 flagships or just do 75 to 25?" Apparently there's a T150, T140, T120, T100, T90, T80, T75, T60, T53, T50, T40, T30, T25, T20, T15, T14, T13, T10, T6, and HYS. Basically just look at the ranking of the law school whose flagship or specialty journal gave you an offer, and start the tier from there.

Anyways, as a Columbia grad, I think "T4 minus Chicago" is a very fair tier to establish.

LMFAO. I love this, especially that there's a "T15, T14, AND T13." Also, iirc (from my days on the board of a "T13 flagship" LR), there's not really a 100% match between USNWR law school rankings and LR rankings. e.g. Cornell Law Review might punch above its weight while NYU is not as great as expected or something like that (I'm making those specific examples up) when you factor in number of citations, preftige of authors, etc. There's some totally separate ranking for law reviews I think, because of course there is.

There is the W&L ranking, which is useful if you're trying to maximize impact. Unfortunately, for hiring and tenure purposes, law professors go off the USNews rankings more often than W&L when determining whether a publication is impressive or not. So, while the Notre Dame Law Review is above the Columbia Law Review on W&L, one should still go with Columbia (if given an offer for both) if their main concern is being hirable or tenurable.

It's a weird system overall, because when I was an articles editor, we'd look at W&L rankings to determine whether the journal from which an author was expediting was within our league or not. Meanwhile, the professors generally didn't care about the W&L rankings. Meaning articles editors and law professors carry two different perceptions of how to view a publication offer.

[woopig2017]

This thread is turning into a sampling of basically every single major thread on this site. The only thing left is a "day in the life" section for lurking 0Ls to ask their questions.

[Anonymous User]

Without TLS, I'd have little idea of the fine grade prestige distinctions made by law profs, clerks (see the clerk threads detailing the prestige of individual judges/justices), and litigators (see the boutique threads attempting to parse out which small firm is better than the other small firm by associate pedigree). But I won't lie, I enjoy this stupid little game.

[transferquestiontls]

This thread is turning into a sampling of basically every single major thread on this site. The only thing left is a "day in the life" section for lurking 0Ls to ask their questions.

For real, ppl should stop posting unless they have matching/re-raise/bonus news.

[Anonymous User]

This thread is turning into a sampling of basically every single major thread on this site. The only thing left is a "day in the life" section for lurking 0Ls to ask their questions.

For real, ppl should stop posting unless they have matching/re-raise/bonus news.

I don't think people should stop posting outside of news. But it would be nice if we at least stuck to the topic.

I welcome the pointless speculation, complaining, angst, and communal suffering. It's home.

[Anonymous User]

This thread is turning into a sampling of basically every single major thread on this site. The only thing left is a "day in the life" section for lurking 0Ls to ask their questions.

Well 0Ls, usually being a midlevel sucks. You're constantly getting bombarded with unreasonable demands from clients and partners while trying to supervise juniors who have no training or skill whatsoever.

But every few months or years, something magical happens. Some firm raises market salaries or bonuses, and then you still have all those unreasonable demands on your time but you also get to spend hours updating TLS with the hopes of news but instead just reading through pages of arguments about whether it's "YHS" or "YSH". Makes the grind worth it.

[Anonymous User]

[*]

This. I'm very sympathetic to bashing YSH alums, gunners who brag about their clerkships, and so on. But the problem is that this sort of elitism permeates the entire profession through and through. Yalies will turn their nose at the rest of the profession. Harvard people won't stop talking about HYS. Duke lawyers always talk about the "T10." Georgetowners think UCLA and Vandy are beneath them. Litigators with clerkships think corp bros are beneath them. V10 corp bros in NYC worship Vault. T50 people always talk about T50. I still remember when Covid first hit, rando lawyers from T200 schools were the ones who were most viciously against Diploma Privilege. Because being admitted to the bar is a "badge of honor" that had to be earned.

I'm going through my first law review submission cycle, and there's an ongoing Spring Submission 2022 thread and spreadsheet on Reddit full of law professors and aspiring ones updating everyone on their offers and rejections. The funniest aspect is how people talk about their offers. "I just got an offer from a T53 flagship." "I'm sitting on an offer from a T6 specialty. Should I expedite to all the T75 flagships or just do 75 to 25?" Apparently there's a T150, T140, T120, T100, T90, T80, T75, T60, T53, T50, T40, T30, T25, T20, T15, T14, T13, T10, T6, and HYS. Basically just look at the ranking of the law school whose flagship or specialty journal gave you an offer, and start the tier from there.

Anyways, as a Columbia grad, I think "T4 minus Chicago" is a very fair tier to establish.

LMFAO. I love this, especially that there's a "T15, T14, AND T13." Also, iirc (from my days on the board of a "T13 flagship" LR), there's not really a 100% match between USNWR law school rankings and LR rankings. e.g. Cornell Law Review might punch above its weight while NYU is not as great as expected or something like that (I'm making those specific examples up) when you factor in number of citations, preftige of authors, etc. There's some totally separate ranking for law reviews I think, because of course there is.

You all - STFU. Go find a separate thread.

[Anonymous User]

This thread is turning into a sampling of basically every single major thread on this site. The only thing left is a "day in the life" section for lurking 0Ls to ask their questions.

Well 0Ls, usually being a midlevel sucks. You're constantly getting bombarded with unreasonable demands from clients and partners while trying to supervise juniors who have no training or skill whatsoever.

But every few months or years, something magical happens. Some firm raises market salaries or bonuses, and then you still have all those unreasonable demands on your time but you also get to spend hours updating TLS with the hopes of news but instead just reading through pages of arguments about whether it's "YHS" or "YSH". Makes the grind worth it.

0Ls ITT: "Is a raise a good thing? New to the whole biglaw thing."

[Anonymous User]

Included "above-market talent receiving below-market compensation" for my rating of each of the v10 in my Vault survey.

I'm doing my part

[Anonymous User]

[*]

This. I'm very sympathetic to bashing YSH alums, gunners who brag about their clerkships, and so on. But the problem is that this sort of elitism permeates the entire profession through and through. Yalies will turn their nose at the rest of the profession. Harvard people won't stop talking about HYS. Duke lawyers always talk about the "T10." Georgetowners think UCLA and Vandy are beneath them. Litigators with clerkships think corp bros are beneath them. V10 corp bros in NYC worship Vault. T50 people always talk about T50. I still remember when Covid first hit, rando lawyers from T200 schools were the ones who were most viciously against Diploma Privilege. Because being admitted to the bar is a "badge of honor" that had to be earned.

I'm going through my first law review submission cycle, and there's an ongoing Spring Submission 2022 thread and spreadsheet on Reddit full of law professors and aspiring ones updating everyone on their offers and rejections. The funniest aspect is how people talk about their offers. "I just got an offer from a T53 flagship." "I'm sitting on an offer from a T6 specialty. Should I expedite to all the T75 flagships or just do 75 to 25?" Apparently there's a T150, T140, T120, T100, T90, T80, T75, T60, T53, T50, T40, T30, T25, T20, T15, T14, T13, T10, T6, and HYS. Basically just look at the ranking of the law school whose flagship or specialty journal gave you an offer, and start the tier from there.

Anyways, as a Columbia grad, I think "T4 minus Chicago" is a very fair tier to establish.

LMFAO. I love this, especially that there's a "T15, T14, AND T13." Also, iirc (from my days on the board of a "T13 flagship" LR), there's not really a 100% match between USNWR law school rankings and LR rankings. e.g. Cornell Law Review might punch above its weight while NYU is not as great as expected or something like that (I'm making those specific examples up) when you factor in number of citations, preftige of authors, etc. There's some totally separate ranking for law reviews I think, because of course there is.

You all - STFU. Go find a separate thread.

I wonder if this is the same OP that Karen-policed that other thread into the ground.

[Anonymous User]

Let's look at the hard numbers and suss out what is going on with the raises:

Standard deviation for the top 50 firms in Profits Per Lawyer:
2000 - $254,167
2010 - $221,153
2020 - $321,599

Standard deviation for the top 50 firms in Profits Per Partner:
2000 - $521,000
2010 - $689,292
2020 - $1,190,952

Standard deviation for the top 50 firms in Revenue Per Lawyer:
2000 - $247,427
2010 - $227,020
2020 - $386,789

From 2000 to 2010, the top firms lost ground to the rest of the pack in revenue and profits per lawyer. But since the financial crisis, there has been massive stratification in firm profitability and revenue.

The top firms are pulling away from the pack. The stratification is especially evident from last year when the top 5 firms had profits per lawyer of almost twice that of the T30-T50 in PPL. And 2021 was likely an even more profitable year for the top firms.

The top firms can easily afford the pay bump. The only question is whether they want to push their advantage and go for more than Milbank. But firms remember the post-2007 profitability contraction. Some may even remember the 1970s contraction after the fed raised rates through the roof. Given the 7.5% inflation and the pending fed response, they are moving carefully to minimize risk.

My guess is that someone will raise beyond Milbank because the firms are tired of the constant associate churn and want to separate themselves from the pack and pull in more reliable and devoted associates. The top firms are losing quality associates to less profitable firms, and they want to put an end to it.

But they will wait until March or April because of economic / fed uncertainty.

[Sackboy]

You all - STFU. Go find a separate thread.

I wonder if this is the same OP that Karen-policed that other thread into the ground.

If it is, you'll get a PM. That OP PM'd me several times and was completely losing their shit. Very amusing.

[Saami]

You all - STFU. Go find a separate thread.

No.

[Anonymous User]

You all - STFU. Go find a separate thread.

I wonder if this is the same OP that Karen-policed that other thread into the ground.

If it is, you'll get a PM. That OP PM'd me several times and was completely losing their shit. Very amusing.

That OP, and can confirm it's a different Karen. I would never sink so low as to use different font sizes.

[Anonymous User]

I appreciate the empirical approach, but I don’t think “separate yourself from the pack” is on the table here. If a tippy-top firm raises $10k or even $20k over Milbank, there’s a set of 30-50 firms that *will* (begrudgingly) do the same.

The kind of investment that these firms would need to make in order to achieve “separation” (e.g. DPW to $275k) is just not the sort of thing those partnerships will stomach. Especially when the costs of that strategy are so tangible vs. the benefits (somewhat higher retention, better recruiting, etc.) are intangible and only play out in the long-run.

[Anonymous User]

DPW match Milbank. Raise effective March 15, but retroactive to January 1.

Edit: match for juniors; raise for midlevels and seniors.

[Anonymous User]

DPW Raise

215k
225k
250k
293.5k
335k
360.5k
381k
396.5k

[bigboybob]

Please be a troll. This is ridiculous.

[Anonymous User]

DPW match Milbank. Raise effective March 15, but retroactive to January 1.

They beat DPW for more senior classes.

[Anonymous User]

Please be a troll. This is ridiculous.

No, actually serious. Almost choked on my non-lobster

[bigboybob]

Please be a troll. This is ridiculous.

No, actually serious. Almost choked on my non-lobster

What is with this weird .5 BS? Also, are you ok? I hope you can afford real lobster now, or at a minimum, imitation crab.

[Anonymous User]

If this is true, somebody at DPW has got to explain how they keep arriving at these weird-looking salary figures.