Milbank/Davis Polk/Cravath Scale: NYC to 215-415k Forum

[Anonymous User]

How bad would attrition have to become for firms to raise?

Attrition would be addressed by bonuses, not raising salaries. I tend to think the timing of raises has more to do with economy-wide inflation than anything else, but there are definitely some weird dynamics specific to the legal market at play with the V20's match/raise game theory at the moment.

[Anonymous User]

Can someone explain to me how Skadden ended up as V3 anyway? Much of the V10 are either richer or more selective or both.

For a long time it used to be S&C. Most lawyers probably don't realize Skadden is ranked ahead of Sullcrom.

Kinda like Stanford switching places with Harvard on the law school rankings. Harvard is still Harvard, really.

I know this thread is full of junior associates and some law students here and there, but as a V20 senior associate, I can confirm that we don't really think about firms stacked up in any particular order. Bands or groupings make more sense. To put it simply, it's pretty much Wachtell > some other top firms like Cravath, S&C, DPW, etc > ones that are still good but not quite as the previous grouping > the rest. These aren't schools.

[ExpOriental]

Can someone explain to me how Skadden ended up as V3 anyway? Much of the V10 are either richer or more selective or both.

The thing is that Vault is really fucking stupid

[Anonymous User]

I'm willing to forego a raise just to see the posters who've turned this forum into a 0L prestige debate never find happiness

Same. I just want to hear news about DPW or Cravath. I don’t care about the lay prestige of HLS on tik tok.

[Anonymous User]

SLS is overrated. HLS has better medians.

CLS has better LSAT scores than both of them.

[Anonymous User]

DPW and the rest of the V10 gearing up for another week

[Anonymous User]

True story. In 2000, fearful of losing talent to west coast firms at the height of the dot com bubble, Skadden raised base salary from $125K to $140K. Then the bubble burst and no one else matched. Skadden partners were pissed. For the next five years, Skadden paid year end bonuses that were $15K below market to offset their above market base salary until market base finally caught up. Skadden has never been a market leader since.

Is this flame? Any sources?

Main source is that I saw it happen. But here’s a story from 2006, when base finally caught up, noting that Skadden base had been at $140K since 2000:

http://hlrecord.org/biglaw-firms-announ ... rst-years/

I’ve been reading about this round of associate salary bump as a compensation “bubble,” which may pop, and there may be some truth to it afterall. Looks like v10s are holding out in anticipation of weathering a possible recession

With the market tanking and Russia about to invade Ukraine, it’s a real question whether Milbank 2022 is Skadden 2000. I think too many firms have already matched to walk it back at this point, and everyone will match eventually (everyone being all traditionally market paying firms), but if the world continues to decline, that’s by no means a certainty.

"eventually" could be 4-5 years like Skadden 2000.

[Anonymous User]

Can someone explain to me how Skadden ended up as V3 anyway? Much of the V10 are either richer or more selective or both.

For a long time it used to be S&C. Most lawyers probably don't realize Skadden is ranked ahead of Sullcrom.

Kinda like Stanford switching places with Harvard on the law school rankings. Harvard is still Harvard, really.

I know this thread is full of junior associates and some law students here and there, but as a V20 senior associate, I can confirm that we don't really think about firms stacked up in any particular order. Bands or groupings make more sense. To put it simply, it's pretty much Wachtell > some other top firms like Cravath, S&C, DPW, etc > ones that are still good but not quite as the previous grouping > the rest. These aren't schools.

Adding to this, when you begin to specialize in an area you really only see other firms that specialize in that area as your competitors, little regard is had for vault rankings.

[NoLongerALurker]

I had a lobster roll for lunch Sunday. Being at a below-market firm, I felt like a fraud the whole time.

[Anonymous User]

SLS is overrated. HLS has better medians.

Implying medians matter compared to exits. Granted, S probably equals (or is only slightly better than) H in this regard. But LMFAO at the idea that medians make a school.

Yeah HLS has more liberal arts majors with 4.0s who guessed one more question right on a standardized test. SFW? H's outcomes also suck. It's just a slightly better georgetown with a cooler name. Lumping it together with YS makes no sense.

Counterpoint: HLS has more lay prestige by a lot, which might actually have value since every other TikTok lawyer I see now is "Harvard Law Couple" or "Harvard Law alum talks about X" or "Law Tips from a Harvard Lawyer" or the like.

Harvard has more lay prestige than Yale does. That doesn't make it better.

“Better” is different to different people and if you wanna be a pop culture talking head lawyer to normal people (probably more common with the YouTube generation) then yeah, Harvard would be “better” for you than any other school. If you want to be a law professor, Yale is “better” than everywhere else.

Every T-13 student and alum that posts on this cesspool of neuroticism is obsessed with convincing themselves that whatever outcome they got is just as good as anyone else’s, and a big part of achieving that comes from shit talking the other schools. That’s how it is

I go to a school currently outside the top 50 and am going to be making the same amount as everyone here (except Milbank chads) despite failing out of undergrad and taking the LSAT just to see what I'd get. Imagine trying all of your life to get into Harvard law and then making the same amount of money as someone who just fucked around the entire time. At least your firm bio is cooler than mine will be.

This is either remarkably self-aware or just really good evidence that I shouldn't have limited my take to only the T-13 students and alumni in desperate need of convincing themselves that no one else has it better than them. Thanks either way.

[Anonymous User]

Lawyers care about money, but most lawyers (on TLS, at least) care even more about relative status.

If you skim through threads like this one (2L SA gifts), you can see this mindset in the process of forming.

[Anonymous User]

Implying medians matter compared to exits. Granted, S probably equals (or is only slightly better than) H in this regard. But LMFAO at the idea that medians make a school.

Yeah HLS has more liberal arts majors with 4.0s who guessed one more question right on a standardized test. SFW? H's outcomes also suck. It's just a slightly better georgetown with a cooler name. Lumping it together with YS makes no sense.

Counterpoint: HLS has more lay prestige by a lot, which might actually have value since every other TikTok lawyer I see now is "Harvard Law Couple" or "Harvard Law alum talks about X" or "Law Tips from a Harvard Lawyer" or the like.

Harvard has more lay prestige than Yale does. That doesn't make it better.

“Better” is different to different people and if you wanna be a pop culture talking head lawyer to normal people (probably more common with the YouTube generation) then yeah, Harvard would be “better” for you than any other school. If you want to be a law professor, Yale is “better” than everywhere else.

Every T-13 student and alum that posts on this cesspool of neuroticism is obsessed with convincing themselves that whatever outcome they got is just as good as anyone else’s, and a big part of achieving that comes from shit talking the other schools. That’s how it is

I go to a school currently outside the top 50 and am going to be making the same amount as everyone here (except Milbank chads) despite failing out of undergrad and taking the LSAT just to see what I'd get. Imagine trying all of your life to get into Harvard law and then making the same amount of money as someone who just fucked around the entire time. At least your firm bio is cooler than mine will be.

This is either remarkably self-aware or just really good evidence that I shouldn't have limited my take to only the T-13 students and alumni in desperate need of convincing themselves that no one else has it better than them. Thanks either way.

Yeah the joke was that I can talk shit about Harvard too despite going to a much worse school. Definitely shouldn't have limited it to t13 only. But then the Harvard kids making the same amount as me got mad and started talking about employment odds in a thread where everyone has a job and Susman COA clerk bonuses in a thread about market pay rates.

[Anonymous User]

Yeah HLS has more liberal arts majors with 4.0s who guessed one more question right on a standardized test. SFW? H's outcomes also suck. It's just a slightly better georgetown with a cooler name. Lumping it together with YS makes no sense.

Counterpoint: HLS has more lay prestige by a lot, which might actually have value since every other TikTok lawyer I see now is "Harvard Law Couple" or "Harvard Law alum talks about X" or "Law Tips from a Harvard Lawyer" or the like.

Harvard has more lay prestige than Yale does. That doesn't make it better.

“Better” is different to different people and if you wanna be a pop culture talking head lawyer to normal people (probably more common with the YouTube generation) then yeah, Harvard would be “better” for you than any other school. If you want to be a law professor, Yale is “better” than everywhere else.

Every T-13 student and alum that posts on this cesspool of neuroticism is obsessed with convincing themselves that whatever outcome they got is just as good as anyone else’s, and a big part of achieving that comes from shit talking the other schools. That’s how it is

I go to a school currently outside the top 50 and am going to be making the same amount as everyone here (except Milbank chads) despite failing out of undergrad and taking the LSAT just to see what I'd get. Imagine trying all of your life to get into Harvard law and then making the same amount of money as someone who just fucked around the entire time. At least your firm bio is cooler than mine will be.

This is either remarkably self-aware or just really good evidence that I shouldn't have limited my take to only the T-13 students and alumni in desperate need of convincing themselves that no one else has it better than them. Thanks either way.

Yeah the joke was that I can talk shit about Harvard too despite going to a much worse school. Definitely shouldn't have limited it to t13 only. But then the Harvard kids making the same amount as me got mad and started talking about employment odds in a thread where everyone has a job and Susman COA clerk bonuses in a thread about market pay rates.

my classmates can beat up your classmates

[Anonymous User]

Today's as good a day as any other for DPW to finally make their announcement. Maybe it'll happen

[Anonymous User]

Yeah HLS has more liberal arts majors with 4.0s who guessed one more question right on a standardized test. SFW? H's outcomes also suck. It's just a slightly better georgetown with a cooler name. Lumping it together with YS makes no sense.

Counterpoint: HLS has more lay prestige by a lot, which might actually have value since every other TikTok lawyer I see now is "Harvard Law Couple" or "Harvard Law alum talks about X" or "Law Tips from a Harvard Lawyer" or the like.

Harvard has more lay prestige than Yale does. That doesn't make it better.

“Better” is different to different people and if you wanna be a pop culture talking head lawyer to normal people (probably more common with the YouTube generation) then yeah, Harvard would be “better” for you than any other school. If you want to be a law professor, Yale is “better” than everywhere else.

Every T-13 student and alum that posts on this cesspool of neuroticism is obsessed with convincing themselves that whatever outcome they got is just as good as anyone else’s, and a big part of achieving that comes from shit talking the other schools. That’s how it is

I go to a school currently outside the top 50 and am going to be making the same amount as everyone here (except Milbank chads) despite failing out of undergrad and taking the LSAT just to see what I'd get. Imagine trying all of your life to get into Harvard law and then making the same amount of money as someone who just fucked around the entire time. At least your firm bio is cooler than mine will be.

This is either remarkably self-aware or just really good evidence that I shouldn't have limited my take to only the T-13 students and alumni in desperate need of convincing themselves that no one else has it better than them. Thanks either way.

Yeah the joke was that I can talk shit about Harvard too despite going to a much worse school. Definitely shouldn't have limited it to t13 only. But then the Harvard kids making the same amount as me got mad and started talking about employment odds in a thread where everyone has a job and Susman COA clerk bonuses in a thread about market pay rates.

It's almost as if there's no news about market rate salaries to discuss, or something.

[Anonymous User]

Today's as good a day as any other for DPW to finally make their announcement. Maybe it'll happen

I've lost hope

[Anonymous User]

Deleted

[Anonymous User]

Today's as good a day as any other for DPW to finally make their announcement. Maybe it'll happen

I've lost hope

Feels like others are right there with you. This thread generally moves pretty quickly on weekday mornings. Seems a little slow today.

[Anonymous User]

Don’t think any more matching coming. It’s too soon since the last match.

Stratification of different salary scales is solidifying: those who can afford to pay market and those who pay below market.

Expecting Milbank to be flooded with lateral applicants.

You're crazy if you think no one else is matching... firms are literally just waiting on DPW right now. Once they move, the dozens of firms that have been pre-authorized to match DPW will match them.

...so, in January 2023?

[Anonymous User]

You're crazy if you think no one else is matching... firms are literally just waiting on DPW right now. Once they move, the dozens of firms that have been pre-authorized to match DPW will match them.

I also think that firms will eventually at least match but can we stop with the "must be waiting on DPW" nonsense and just use the perhaps equally annoying jargon that they're waiting for the market to settle?

Neil and Co don't deserve the status or attention. One time long ago, they one-upped milbank. Cool. They've been quiet and they're very likely not going to do shit this round so let's call it as it is.

[Anonymous User]

When you chose the V10 and realize your friends at WSGR and DLA are now making more than you

[Anonymous User]

Seems obvious to me that the V10 (a) don't want to match and (b) don't view Milbank as a peer. They will only match when someone they view as their peer does (which I think will happen in the next month or two and certainly before OCI starts).

[Anonymous User]

Implying medians matter compared to exits. Granted, S probably equals (or is only slightly better than) H in this regard. But LMFAO at the idea that medians make a school.

Yeah HLS has more liberal arts majors with 4.0s who guessed one more question right on a standardized test. SFW? H's outcomes also suck. It's just a slightly better georgetown with a cooler name. Lumping it together with YS makes no sense.

Counterpoint: HLS has more lay prestige by a lot, which might actually have value since every other TikTok lawyer I see now is "Harvard Law Couple" or "Harvard Law alum talks about X" or "Law Tips from a Harvard Lawyer" or the like.

Harvard has more lay prestige than Yale does. That doesn't make it better.

“Better” is different to different people and if you wanna be a pop culture talking head lawyer to normal people (probably more common with the YouTube generation) then yeah, Harvard would be “better” for you than any other school. If you want to be a law professor, Yale is “better” than everywhere else.

Every T-13 student and alum that posts on this cesspool of neuroticism is obsessed with convincing themselves that whatever outcome they got is just as good as anyone else’s, and a big part of achieving that comes from shit talking the other schools. That’s how it is

I go to a school currently outside the top 50 and am going to be making the same amount as everyone here (except Milbank chads) despite failing out of undergrad and taking the LSAT just to see what I'd get. Imagine trying all of your life to get into Harvard law and then making the same amount of money as someone who just fucked around the entire time. At least your firm bio is cooler than mine will be.

This is either remarkably self-aware or just really good evidence that I shouldn't have limited my take to only the T-13 students and alumni in desperate need of convincing themselves that no one else has it better than them. Thanks either way.

This. I'm very sympathetic to bashing YSH alums, gunners who brag about their clerkships, and so on. But the problem is that this sort of elitism permeates the entire profession through and through. Yalies will turn their nose at the rest of the profession. Harvard people won't stop talking about HYS. Duke lawyers always talk about the "T10." Georgetowners think UCLA and Vandy are beneath them. Litigators with clerkships think corp bros are beneath them. V10 corp bros in NYC worship Vault. T50 people always talk about T50. I still remember when Covid first hit, rando lawyers from T200 schools were the ones who were most viciously against Diploma Privilege. Because being admitted to the bar is a "badge of honor" that had to be earned.

[Anonymous User]

IMO, the thing that is different this time compared to previous salary bumps is that Milbank included a true-up. That takes a ton of time pressure off the firms, because waiting a few months to match doesn't actually cost your associates any compensation. It encourages an extreme "wait for the market to settle" approach.

[Saami]

This. I'm very sympathetic to bashing YSH alums, gunners who brag about their clerkships, and so on. But the problem is that this sort of elitism permeates the entire profession through and through. Yalies will turn their nose at the rest of the profession. Harvard people won't stop talking about HYS. Duke lawyers always talk about the "T10." Georgetowners think UCLA and Vandy are beneath them. Litigators with clerkships think corp bros are beneath them. V10 corp bros in NYC worship Vault. T50 people always talk about T50. I still remember when Covid first hit, rando lawyers from T200 schools were the ones who were most viciously against Diploma Privilege. Because being admitted to the bar is a "badge of honor" that had to be earned.

I'm going through my first law review submission cycle, and there's an ongoing Spring Submission 2022 thread and spreadsheet on Reddit full of law professors and aspiring ones updating everyone on their offers and rejections. The funniest aspect is how people talk about their offers. "I just got an offer from a T53 flagship." "I'm sitting on an offer from a T6 specialty. Should I expedite to all the T75 flagships or just do 75 to 25?" Apparently there's a T150, T140, T120, T100, T90, T80, T75, T60, T53, T50, T40, T30, T25, T20, T15, T14, T13, T10, T6, and HYS. Basically just look at the ranking of the law school whose flagship or specialty journal gave you an offer, and start the tier from there.

Anyways, as a Columbia grad, I think "T4 minus Chicago" is a very fair tier to establish.