Prediction: When will NYC lawyers return to the office? Forum

[nealric]

Long shot here — but what are the odds that some might be able to live in one state and work in another? I will likely end up in NYC postgrad, and I’m excited and humbled to be working at the firm (V50), but I am not the least bit excited to live there. Being able to stay in my current Midwest state would help my QOL tremendously.

I think the odds are pretty slim that NYC biglaw is going to start allowing 100% remote employees post-COVID. For one, it's hard to integrate and train a brand new associate without any in-person interaction. For another, remote employees can create tax issues for employers.

My V10 firm already has a tax presence in other states. I don't think the tax issues are a big deal (if the tech companies can deal with it the law firms can). Bigger issue might be UPL which I have no insight into.

I think you are underestimating how many NYC lawyers do not want to go back to NYC or even stay within commuting distance. I agree that juniors are better off with some facetime, but a lot of mid-level and seniors are not going to want to go back on a regular basis and firms will need to accommodate these people as well or they will lose talent.

It's a bit harder for law firms because they are structured as partnerships for tax purposes rather than C-corps. Of course it can be done, but some firms may not want to allow it.

Would what firms did this summer be an indication on whether they'd be willing to do this or not? I summered at a V20 and I did my summer in a middle of nowhere flyover state and they had me fill out that states tax forms and everything. Whereas I had a friend summer at a large firm that doesn't have as many offices and they had to relocate to certain states for the summer in order to be paid.

Maybe maybe not. Tax residence rules can be complex, and a single summer associate working remote for 8 weeks may not be treated the same as a full time employee.

[Anonymous User]

My NY v5 didn’t even ask associates where they are and I know for a fact that a majority of my group at all levels left New York for at least several months of the year. They attributed all non-client site work to the New York office so that might have been a part of it. I doubt they would have done this if this created a tax problem.

Same here (V10). I know for a fact that a number of the new associates are working from places like Utah and Connecticut and Georgia, where we don't have offices.

[Anonymous User]

My NY v5 didn’t even ask associates where they are and I know for a fact that a majority of my group at all levels left New York for at least several months of the year. They attributed all non-client site work to the New York office so that might have been a part of it. I doubt they would have done this if this created a tax problem.

Same here (V10). I know for a fact that a number of the new associates are working from places like Utah and Connecticut and Georgia, where we don't have offices.

NYC big law. People, including partners, working all over the country including in states we don't have offices. We record the state in which the work is done in our time entry. I assume the firm has already thought of this.

[Anonymous User]

I heard from the grapevine that Stroock is staying virtual without plans to force people to return to the office and may shed office space - is that true? Anyone heard similar?

[Anonymous User]

I am an incoming NYC summer associate at a V50. I assume to be able to live in another state and work full-time, I’d have to be in corporate law. Should I try to end up in the corporate practice group to make it more likely to be able to be fully remote as a junior?

[Anonymous User]

I heard from the grapevine that Stroock is staying virtual without plans to force people to return to the office and may shed office space - is that true? Anyone heard similar?

Can anyone confirm? Time to lateral?

[OsamaJerry]

I heard from the grapevine that Stroock is staying virtual without plans to force people to return to the office and may shed office space - is that true? Anyone heard similar?

Can anyone confirm? Time to lateral?

Can't confirm. However, it would be really good for these firms to at least tell us seriously whether they expect us to have to go back to the office any time in 2021 (if they even know themselves). Stroock was one of the firms to announce many months ago that they did not expect any return until at least Jan 2021. The uncertainty is keeping me close by when I don't need to be at all. I've spoken to an equity partner (not at Stroock) who said that they've been discussing that things will not return to normal (pre-COVID lifestyle) because there can be significant cost savings and increase in productivity.

[Anonymous User]

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[Anonymous User]

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[Anonymous User]

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[Anonymous User]

Alright. I'm predicting it. We are never going back to the office. After speaking with an equity partner, I was told things will never go back to the way they were (v50). Firms can save too much money and now they realize productivity is the same. They are shrinking office size and renegotiating leases. Hopefully we can live further from the city and have a better quality of life.

[Anonymous User]

Alright. I'm predicting it. We are never going back to the office. After speaking with an equity partner, I was told things will never go back to the way they were (v50). Firms can save too much money and now they realize productivity is the same. They are shrinking office size and renegotiating leases. Hopefully we can live further from the city and have a better quality of life.

I might actually want to stay in biglaw a few more years if this happens

[emc91]

Alright. I'm predicting it. We are never going back to the office. After speaking with an equity partner, I was told things will never go back to the way they were (v50). Firms can save too much money and now they realize productivity is the same. They are shrinking office size and renegotiating leases. Hopefully we can live further from the city and have a better quality of life.

I might actually want to stay in biglaw a few more years if this happens

Same

[Mr. Kister]

Alright. I'm predicting it. We are never going back to the office. After speaking with an equity partner, I was told things will never go back to the way they were (v50). Firms can save too much money and now they realize productivity is the same. They are shrinking office size and renegotiating leases. Hopefully we can live further from the city and have a better quality of life.

I might actually want to stay in biglaw a few more years if this happens

Should be interesting to see how it all shakes out. I know three people who've left big law over the past few months because going into the office was what made it bearable for them. I'd hate permanent WFH too.

[emc91]

Alright. I'm predicting it. We are never going back to the office. After speaking with an equity partner, I was told things will never go back to the way they were (v50). Firms can save too much money and now they realize productivity is the same. They are shrinking office size and renegotiating leases. Hopefully we can live further from the city and have a better quality of life.

I might actually want to stay in biglaw a few more years if this happens

Should be interesting to see how it all shakes out. I know three people who've left big law over the past few months because going into the office was what made it bearable for them. I'd hate permanent WFH too.

Lol what? I get not wanting permanent WFH (and I don’t think we will get that), but going into the office made Biglaw bearable? You get so many hours of your day back without going into the office.

[Voxius]

Anyone else feel like the longer wfh goes on the more difficult it will be to pull everyone back into the office? I’ve spoken with multiple colleagues that have moved over an hour away from the office and pretty bluntly don’t plan to go back into the office 5x a week again.

Also seems like it will be at least another 5-6 months before offices really open up (I assume it won’t be until the vaccine is widely available), at which point wfh will be even more entrenched.

[Anonymous User]

I'd be more okay with WFH if the firms were willing to allow us to expense certain costs, such as internet costs as well as various costs related to a home office setup. I live in NYC with no intention of leaving the city, so WFH doesnt do that much for me. But I'd be happier with a WFH setup if we could have certain additional expenses I have had to incur from getting a home office setup. Also--subsidizing a bit the rent of associates given the savings from smaller office space (and I imagine NYC and many other cities will be giving tax breaks to keep places). These are pipe dreams, but now I feel like a lot of home office costs will be borne by the associates.

[bob311]

I'd be more okay with WFH if the firms were willing to allow us to expense certain costs, such as internet costs as well as various costs related to a home office setup. I live in NYC with no intention of leaving the city, so WFH doesnt do that much for me. But I'd be happier with a WFH setup if we could have certain additional expenses I have had to incur from getting a home office setup. Also--subsidizing a bit the rent of associates given the savings from smaller office space (and I imagine NYC and many other cities will be giving tax breaks to keep places). These are pipe dreams, but now I feel like a lot of home office costs will be borne by the associates.

I honestly couldn’t care less about some extra expense stipend if it meant I didn’t have to commute and sit in an office all day while boomer partners walk down the hall looking for associates to drop work on top of. If wfh has solved anything for me - it’s that exact problem.

[emc91]

I'd be more okay with WFH if the firms were willing to allow us to expense certain costs, such as internet costs as well as various costs related to a home office setup. I live in NYC with no intention of leaving the city, so WFH doesnt do that much for me. But I'd be happier with a WFH setup if we could have certain additional expenses I have had to incur from getting a home office setup. Also--subsidizing a bit the rent of associates given the savings from smaller office space (and I imagine NYC and many other cities will be giving tax breaks to keep places). These are pipe dreams, but now I feel like a lot of home office costs will be borne by the associates.

I honestly couldn’t care less about some extra expense stipend if it meant I didn’t have to commute and sit in an office all day while boomer partners walk down the hall looking for associates to drop work on top of. If wfh has solved anything for me - it’s that exact problem.

Agreed. Also, my WFH expenses have been extremely minimal—I just had to set up a home office. I no longer pay for parking, gas, fancy clothes, makeup, or a dog walker. I no longer have the temptation to go to Starbucks or out to lunch. I’ve saved a ton of money so far.

[Anonymous User]

I'd be more okay with WFH if the firms were willing to allow us to expense certain costs, such as internet costs as well as various costs related to a home office setup. I live in NYC with no intention of leaving the city, so WFH doesnt do that much for me. But I'd be happier with a WFH setup if we could have certain additional expenses I have had to incur from getting a home office setup. Also--subsidizing a bit the rent of associates given the savings from smaller office space (and I imagine NYC and many other cities will be giving tax breaks to keep places). These are pipe dreams, but now I feel like a lot of home office costs will be borne by the associates.

Aren't most firms doing that, though? Mine at least offers a stipend for home office furniture/equipment, and they'll ship us paper, pens, printer ink, etc., if we request it. No internet subsidy that I know of, but I think most people have solid internet already just for personal use.

That said, I'd prefer WFH even if they didn't do that. After the initial set-up, the costs associated with working from home are definitely less than the cost of commuting, and the lifestyle benefits are huge.

[Anonymous User]

Another upside..can also get laid during break times. Less stress overall.

[bigboybob]

Can also get laid on a more consistent schedule which increases productivity overall.

[cisscum]

I'd be more okay with WFH if the firms were willing to allow us to expense certain costs, such as internet costs as well as various costs related to a home office setup. I live in NYC with no intention of leaving the city, so WFH doesnt do that much for me. But I'd be happier with a WFH setup if we could have certain additional expenses I have had to incur from getting a home office setup. Also--subsidizing a bit the rent of associates given the savings from smaller office space (and I imagine NYC and many other cities will be giving tax breaks to keep places). These are pipe dreams, but now I feel like a lot of home office costs will be borne by the associates.

If you’re paying rent to live in nyc during all this time when you could live somewhere much cheaper why should the firm be subsidizing you?

[Anonymous User]

Debevoise just pushed the "official" required return to office date to July 1. I say "official" because apparently unofficially its fall/winter or even later. Brace yourselves. We are in it for the long haul.

[purplegoldtornado]

Debevoise just pushed the "official" required return to office date to July 1. I say "official" because apparently unofficially its fall/winter or even later. Brace yourselves. We are in it for the long haul.

Why would the unofficial date be later?