Why do a lot of biglaw lawyers say they're not "living the life" financially-wise? Forum

[whysooseriousbiglaw]

For the people who want to leave law to become a CPA, lol just lol.

To be taken seriously as a CPA nowadays you need big4 experience on your resume, preferably 4-7 years if you want that sweet 100k 9-5 job.

If you think biglaw is shitty, wait until you are working the same hours all year round for 1/3 your current salary.

Nah, just 2 to 3 years big4. Plus there are tons, tons, tons more jobs for CPAs than lawyers, including in flyover.

Also I think billable hour requirements vary by office and practice area, but outside of tax season, big4 generally has regular 40 hour weeks. It can get crazy during tax season though.

[whysooseriousbiglaw]

If you hate being in biglaw because you don't get to call any shots and just do what other people tell you, how are comp sci/nursing/teaching/CPA any different? Shot callers are like activist hedge funds, venture cap, or just like any entrepreneurial thing. Or try to get elected onto a board of directors.

These things either fall into your lap by dumb luck, or you went to some preftigious undergrad, booked your finance degree, and then went to some preftigious MBA. I mean, I don't think there's anything stopping a biglolyer from doing an MBA, other than cost and an aversion to more schooling. Although, I suspect even at these jobs, unless you're a firm partner, you're still doing due diligence and grunt work.

Regardless of whether we were focusing on calling the shots, I think we were talking about how shitty legal work is in general in comparison to other jobs. It''s LONG ASS contracts that you have to draft, negotiate, amend. I hate reading and drafting legalese...it sucks balls. It's tedious and stressful at the same time and also very, very procedural focused.Transactional work IMO sucks worse than litigation - it's very procedural focused and contracts (esp credit agreements and finance docs) are mind blowingly boring and albeit complex in a bad way. If you hate spending your life doing paperwork - transactional attorneys have it the worst out of everyone.

[Anonymous User]

For the people who want to leave law to become a CPA, lol just lol.

To be taken seriously as a CPA nowadays you need big4 experience on your resume, preferably 4-7 years if you want that sweet 100k 9-5 job.

If you think biglaw is shitty, wait until you are working the same hours all year round for 1/3 your current salary.

Haha I have no idea what market you're in, but this is hilariously wrong in most of the country. I went to a middling state school and everyone that wasn't an awkward mess got big 4 or something equivalent. It was only 50kish, so a short-sighted fool might say biglaw's obviously better, but it's all about the exit opps. I left after 2+ years and most of my friends were gone by 3. As a side note, lateraling as a big 4 CPA is an absolute joke compared to biglaw. I had multiple offers within a month. Biglaw can be a yearlong nightmare in comparison. I was at almost 70k when I went to law school. That's about the time most of my friends did another easy lateral. After a third and a part time MBA that was paid for (lol at biglaw giving even the slightest fuck about their employees advancement), they're sitting on low 6 figures 9-5 while I'm a miserable biglaw associate. This was all on low state school debt with no grad degree debt.

Now I've been in biglaw in 2 markets, 2 firms, and I'm trying to make another lateral. If you think the inhouse finance jobs are tough for an accountant to get (they're not), LOL at looking at biglaw to inhouse. This all ignores the fact that they're now working jobs where they're making decisions that affect their companies rather than literally doing the subservient shit paperwork after everything important is decided.

Not only that, but the job is better. No debate. The people are better, the hours are better, etc. Go into biglaw if you know you'll like litigation through actual work experience. Don't go to become a paper pushing bitch that is more glorified paralegal than lawyer.

[Anonymous User]

If you hate being in biglaw because you don't get to call any shots and just do what other people tell you, how are comp sci/nursing/teaching/CPA any different? Shot callers are like activist hedge funds, venture cap, or just like any entrepreneurial thing. Or try to get elected onto a board of directors.

These things either fall into your lap by dumb luck, or you went to some preftigious undergrad, booked your finance degree, and then went to some preftigious MBA. I mean, I don't think there's anything stopping a biglolyer from doing an MBA, other than cost and an aversion to more schooling. Although, I suspect even at these jobs, unless you're a firm partner, you're still doing due diligence and grunt work.

Regardless of whether we were focusing on calling the shots, I think we were talking about how shitty legal work is in general in comparison to other jobs. It''s LONG ASS contracts that you have to draft, negotiate, amend. I hate reading and drafting legalese...it sucks balls. It's tedious and stressful at the same time and also very, very procedural focused.Transactional work IMO sucks worse than litigation - it's very procedural focused and contracts (esp credit agreements and finance docs) are mind blowingly boring and albeit complex in a bad way. If you hate spending your life doing paperwork - transactional attorneys have it the worst out of everyone.

Agree 100% on litigation vs biglaw. Any of you pre-law or law students that actually think you'll not hate being a lawyer try this. Go to settings, general, about, legal. Now read all that. Don't just skim it. Really read it. Did you even finish legal notices? That's transactional biglaw. Even at the partner level their spending substantial time reviewing shit like this. Fucking miserable.

[nealric]

If you hate being in biglaw because you don't get to call any shots and just do what other people tell you, how are comp sci/nursing/teaching/CPA any different? Shot callers are like activist hedge funds, venture cap, or just like any entrepreneurial thing. Or try to get elected onto a board of directors.

These things either fall into your lap by dumb luck, or you went to some preftigious undergrad, booked your finance degree, and then went to some preftigious MBA. I mean, I don't think there's anything stopping a biglolyer from doing an MBA, other than cost and an aversion to more schooling. Although, I suspect even at these jobs, unless you're a firm partner, you're still doing due diligence and grunt work.

Regardless of whether we were focusing on calling the shots, I think we were talking about how shitty legal work is in general in comparison to other jobs. It''s LONG ASS contracts that you have to draft, negotiate, amend. I hate reading and drafting legalese...it sucks balls. It's tedious and stressful at the same time and also very, very procedural focused.Transactional work IMO sucks worse than litigation - it's very procedural focused and contracts (esp credit agreements and finance docs) are mind blowingly boring and albeit complex in a bad way. If you hate spending your life doing paperwork - transactional attorneys have it the worst out of everyone.

Agree 100% on litigation vs biglaw. Any of you pre-law or law students that actually think you'll not hate being a lawyer try this. Go to settings, general, about, legal. Now read all that. Don't just skim it. Really read it. Did you even finish legal notices? That's transactional biglaw. Even at the partner level their spending substantial time reviewing shit like this. Fucking miserable.

It's really not that bad if the deal requires some creativity and you need to carefully draft those provisions in the interest of your client. Sure, it's miserably boring if you are just reading dense contract language in a vacuum. No question that it's not for everyone though.

[whysooseriousbiglaw]

For the people who want to leave law to become a CPA, lol just lol.

To be taken seriously as a CPA nowadays you need big4 experience on your resume, preferably 4-7 years if you want that sweet 100k 9-5 job.

If you think biglaw is shitty, wait until you are working the same hours all year round for 1/3 your current salary.

Haha I have no idea what market you're in, but this is hilariously wrong in most of the country. I went to a middling state school and everyone that wasn't an awkward mess got big 4 or something equivalent. It was only 50kish, so a short-sighted fool might say biglaw's obviously better, but it's all about the exit opps. I left after 2+ years and most of my friends were gone by 3. As a side note, lateraling as a big 4 CPA is an absolute joke compared to biglaw. I had multiple offers within a month. Biglaw can be a yearlong nightmare in comparison. I was at almost 70k when I went to law school. That's about the time most of my friends did another easy lateral. After a third and a part time MBA that was paid for (lol at biglaw giving even the slightest fuck about their employees advancement), they're sitting on low 6 figures 9-5 while I'm a miserable biglaw associate. This was all on low state school debt with no grad degree debt.

Now I've been in biglaw in 2 markets, 2 firms, and I'm trying to make another lateral. If you think the inhouse finance jobs are tough for an accountant to get (they're not), LOL at looking at biglaw to inhouse. This all ignores the fact that they're now working jobs where they're making decisions that affect their companies rather than literally doing the subservient shit paperwork after everything important is decided.

Not only that, but the job is better. No debate. The people are better, the hours are better, etc. Go into biglaw if you know you'll like litigation through actual work experience. Don't go to become a paper pushing bitch that is more glorified paralegal than lawyer.

CR

Difference between landing accounting in house v. legal in house:

Friends who applied after 2-3 years in big 4: Send out like 5 applications and get a couple offers. It's super, duper, duper easy to find an in house job.

Friends who applied after 5 to 8 years in biglaw: Send out 100-200 in house applications. Get 5 interviews. No offer. Network with former firm alums and land ONE offer after ONE YEAR of applying to in house solely through networking. I know people who have to spend YEARS of applying to in house jobs just to land ONE offer. These are people with T-14 biglaw credentials and firms ranked between 10 and 50.

There is no comparison with how much easier it is to land an inhouse job as an accountant than a lawyer. That makes sense - small and big businesses need accountants. A lot of businesses don't need in house lawyers.

If you guys don't believe us, then you don't understand accounting hiring....HTH.

If you want geographic mobility, job security, ease of finding jobs, etc. become a CPA, don't become a lawyer.

[nealric]

Friends who applied after 5 to 8 years in biglaw: Send out 100-200 in house applications. Get 5 interviews. No offer. Network with former firm alums and land ONE offer after ONE YEAR of applying to in house solely through networking.

This is doing it wrong. You never ever send out 100 applications in-house. Might as well throw them straight in the garbage. I sent out two in-house applications when I made my switch, but I put many hours networking my way in. It took about 6 months (My job search took almost a year, but I was just applying to law firms at first).

[Anonymous User]

My brother-in-law is a CPA making just under 6 figures in a very cheap flyover state (by choice). He nearly failed out of one college you've never heard, before switching to another and graduating with OK grades. He started at around 50-60k and has received steady increases.

His resume listed "breeding exotic fish" under interests, and he's had many offers each time he's looked to move.

I'm not sure which side of the argument this anecdote is actually.

[favabeansoup]

Guys I think this thread has gone very off topic. This is not a thread about how all these other jobs are better than lawyer's and we should all want to kill ourselves as biglaw lawyers. This is a thread about the financials of biglaw lawyers and why there is a conception that biglaw lawyer salary does not equal living a nice life.

Gripes about how you get paid a lot because the work is miserable is fine, but talking about how CPA life is, or talking about what other careers people are thinking of pursuing isn't really relevant to the topic at hand.

[sayan]

Guys I think this thread has gone very off topic. This is not a thread about how all these other jobs are better than lawyer's and we should all want to kill ourselves as biglaw lawyers. This is a thread about the financials of biglaw lawyers and why there is a conception that biglaw lawyer salary does not equal living a nice life.

Gripes about how you get paid a lot because the work is miserable is fine, but talking about how CPA life is, or talking about what other careers people are thinking of pursuing isn't really relevant to the topic at hand.

The current discussion is more enlightening to a novice big lawler anyways. Many answers have been provided to the original question, but it simply boils down to the triple hitter: high debt service payments, high COL, high taxes.

One can also add "high expectations" to the list, given what a rational person thinks they deserve based on the miserable hours and toil they endure each day on the job, but that is subjective.

[Anonymous User]

If you guys don't believe us, then you don't understand accounting hiring....HTH.

If you want geographic mobility, job security, ease of finding jobs, etc. become a CPA, don't become a lawyer.

I'm a former big4 manager in a major market (think NYC, SF, Chi). I think I know how accounting hiring works.

Yeah, if you want to make 90k in a high COA market or live in Ohio, 2 and done out of the big4 is great.

Otherwise, I'd say you guys are overstating how rosy the market is for accountants. FWIW most of my friends looked for a year+ before they found something good (or gave up and settled).

ETA: also, why would you leave the law, spend 1 year getting a MaCC, spend 2 more years (at least) at a big4 when you can just get an in house job. Even if getting a job in house is really really hard, I seriously doubt that it would take 3 years.

[whysooseriousbiglaw]

If you guys don't believe us, then you don't understand accounting hiring....HTH.

If you want geographic mobility, job security, ease of finding jobs, etc. become a CPA, don't become a lawyer.

I'm a former big4 manager in a major market (think NYC, SF, Chi). I think I know how accounting hiring works.

Yeah, if you want to make 90k in a high COA market or live in Ohio, 2 and done out of the big4 is great.

Otherwise, I'd say you guys are overstating how rosy the market is for accountants. FWIW most of my friends looked for a year+ before they found something good (or gave up and settled).

ETA: also, why would you leave the law, spend 1 year getting a MaCC, spend 2 more years (at least) at a big4 when you can just get an in house job. Even if getting a job in house is really really hard, I seriously doubt that it would take 3 years.

You'd be surprised. Like nealric mentioned above, in house is all about networking or luck if you're not at a v10 or whatever.

First, it's about long term job prospects for making the switch. I know a few lawyers who have gone in house and hated their in house job, either due to politics, long hours, or terrible work - it's a lot harder finding another in house job than it is to find another accounting in house job. I know people who have left the law after going in house because they realized it sucks balls.

Second, as we mentioned above, transactional legal work SUCKS BIG BALLS. I'd rather be doing accounting in house than transactional work in house. I'm not saying accounting is "exciting" but having to draft and review contracts for life makes me want to killself. Do you want to work for a bank and do securities work? LOL @ capital markets attorneys. I feel sorry for them. JFC, I would killself if I had to do capital markets work for life.

Third, if I'm eager to move to a secondary, smaller market, it's a lot easier doing that with accounting than in law. There are a lot more jobs in secondary markets for accountants than lawyers. I have no intention of living in NYC or SF or whatever long term since you can't financially do that without making 500k+ anyway unless you are willing to commute an hour to work, which I am not. And few, if any, house jobs pay 500k.

Fourth, which ties in with the second reason, your friends took a year to find something "good". Biglawyers take a year to find ANY in house job, let alone something "good." Most of them settle for the first in house job they can find IME because it's hard landing an in house job period.

The legal market is absolute trash compared to most other fields - biglawyers with great credentials have trouble landing any in house job, whereas accountants from shitty schools get multiple offers.

[whysooseriousbiglaw]

My brother-in-law is a CPA making just under 6 figures in a very cheap flyover state (by choice). He nearly failed out of one college you've never heard, before switching to another and graduating with OK grades. He started at around 50-60k and has received steady increases.

His resume listed "breeding exotic fish" under interests, and he's had many offers each time he's looked to move.

I'm not sure which side of the argument this anecdote is actually.

This sounds about right. My childhood friend who is an in house CPA spent most of his life fucking around. He went to a shitty college and a shitty grad school for a MACC. He copped big4, worked at big 4 for 2 years, and then went in house. He works chill hours and says his job is fine. Again, not super exciting, but this guy basically spent most of his life fucking around in school and went to shitty schools. He also has a juvenile record for vandalism. He lives in a city like San Diego, Portland, Seattle, Denver, etc. and has a decent life.

It's funny because he was debating between pursuing a MACC or JD, and he did the first because he said JD was too much work....I don't know if that part is true (law school was easy) but he was never studious. He mentioned working some shitty hours at big4 (like 70 hour weeks) but he only did that for 2 years and then had multiple offers to go in house.

In contrast, the T-14 law grad who strived their entire life can't even land one in house job offer after a year of searching and grinding it out in biglaw for years with consistent 60-80 hour weeks....LOL.

[Easy-E]

People like to compare up, not down.

Biglaw associates will not compare themselves to big4 accountants (who work just as much for 1/3 of the pay). They will compare themselves to investment bankers and conclude that their lives suck.

Investment bankers will compare themselves to PE/HF guys and conclude that their lives suck.

I have no idea who PE/HF guys compare themselves to because I can't even imagine having that much money.

Also crippling debt. Don't pay sticker kids.

I have a few friends at big four accounting firms, and they seem to have pretty normal hours, save for the busy weeks where they basically don't sleep. Maybe they aren't typical though.

[star fox]

People like to compare up, not down.

Biglaw associates will not compare themselves to big4 accountants (who work just as much for 1/3 of the pay). They will compare themselves to investment bankers and conclude that their lives suck.

Investment bankers will compare themselves to PE/HF guys and conclude that their lives suck.

I have no idea who PE/HF guys compare themselves to because I can't even imagine having that much money.

Also crippling debt. Don't pay sticker kids.

I have a few friends at big four accounting firms, and they seem to have pretty normal hours, save for the busy weeks where they basically don't sleep. Maybe they aren't typical though.

Audit is going to be consistently busy and you'll be doing a lot of traveling to random places to go visit the site of a client. Tax has their busy season where you're working around the clock but is otherwise pretty laid back. Audit is where all the real exit ops lie. Tax accountants face the same sort of anxiety over their long term job prospects.

[Easy-E]

People like to compare up, not down.

Biglaw associates will not compare themselves to big4 accountants (who work just as much for 1/3 of the pay). They will compare themselves to investment bankers and conclude that their lives suck.

Investment bankers will compare themselves to PE/HF guys and conclude that their lives suck.

I have no idea who PE/HF guys compare themselves to because I can't even imagine having that much money.

Also crippling debt. Don't pay sticker kids.

I have a few friends at big four accounting firms, and they seem to have pretty normal hours, save for the busy weeks where they basically don't sleep. Maybe they aren't typical though.

Audit is going to be consistently busy and you'll be doing a lot of traveling to random places to go visit the site of a client. Tax has their busy season where you're working around the clock but is otherwise pretty laid back. Audit is where all the real exit ops lie. Tax accountants face the same sort of anxiety over their long term job prospects.

Yeah, he's in tax (at least the one I know best), but he has been there a while so maybe exit options aren't great.

[Anonymous User]

People like to compare up, not down.

Biglaw associates will not compare themselves to big4 accountants (who work just as much for 1/3 of the pay). They will compare themselves to investment bankers and conclude that their lives suck.

Investment bankers will compare themselves to PE/HF guys and conclude that their lives suck.

I have no idea who PE/HF guys compare themselves to because I can't even imagine having that much money.

Also crippling debt. Don't pay sticker kids.

I have a few friends at big four accounting firms, and they seem to have pretty normal hours, save for the busy weeks where they basically don't sleep. Maybe they aren't typical though.

Audit is going to be consistently busy and you'll be doing a lot of traveling to random places to go visit the site of a client. Tax has their busy season where you're working around the clock but is otherwise pretty laid back. Audit is where all the real exit ops lie. Tax accountants face the same sort of anxiety over their long term job prospects.

Yeah, he's in tax (at least the one I know best), but he has been there a while so maybe exit options aren't great.

I'm the big4 manager from above. I was in tax. My post is basically what you can expect for a tax accountant from the big 4.

[sublime]

Yea my brother is a big 4 audit cpa and has to travel and stay in shitholes works a ton and gets paid like shit relative to big law. no thanks.

[nealric]

If you guys don't believe us, then you don't understand accounting hiring....HTH.

If you want geographic mobility, job security, ease of finding jobs, etc. become a CPA, don't become a lawyer.

I'm a former big4 manager in a major market (think NYC, SF, Chi). I think I know how accounting hiring works.

Yeah, if you want to make 90k in a high COA market or live in Ohio, 2 and done out of the big4 is great.

Otherwise, I'd say you guys are overstating how rosy the market is for accountants. FWIW most of my friends looked for a year+ before they found something good (or gave up and settled).

ETA: also, why would you leave the law, spend 1 year getting a MaCC, spend 2 more years (at least) at a big4 when you can just get an in house job. Even if getting a job in house is really really hard, I seriously doubt that it would take 3 years.

You'd be surprised. Like nealric mentioned above, in house is all about networking or luck if you're not at a v10 or whatever.

I would emphasize that networking and luck are not the same thing. Networking effectively takes a lot of work. The luck side is when a client just asks you to come in house (which is at least partially just about doing good work for them and building good relationships). That's one of the more common options. I don't think being in the v10 is all that significant except for a limited number of jobs in the financial industry. Most people in-house just care what you can do for them, not how prestigious your firm's name is. What you can do for them is going to be a product of your experience.

[whysooseriousbiglaw]

Yea my brother is a big 4 audit cpa and has to travel and stay in shitholes works a ton and gets paid like shit relative to big law. no thanks.

Better and more exit ops tho. Plus no grad school or maybe just a one year macc. It's all about the long term exit ops.

[sublime]

Yea my brother is a big 4 audit cpa and has to travel and stay in shitholes works a ton and gets paid like shit relative to big law. no thanks.

Better and more exit ops tho. Plus no grad school or maybe just a one year macc. It's all about the long term exit ops.

Yea, I agree there are trade offs. And yea, he did a 1 year macc. Seems really unappealing at the moment though, although unless I luck out he will probably be in a better place in a decade or so, if not sooner.

[JenDarby]

Yea my brother is a big 4 audit cpa and has to travel and stay in shitholes works a ton and gets paid like shit relative to big law. no thanks.

Better and more exit ops tho. Plus no grad school or maybe just a one year macc. It's all about the long term exit ops.

Yea, I agree there are trade offs. And yea, he did a 1 year macc. Seems really unappealing at the moment though, although unless I luck out he will probably be in a better place in a decade or so, if not sooner.

Oh good, a test case. I'll definitely be sticking it out for the next decade to see how this turns out. This and Johanns PAYE plan.

[Anonymous User]

Yea my brother is a big 4 audit cpa and has to travel and stay in shitholes works a ton and gets paid like shit relative to big law. no thanks.

Better and more exit ops tho. Plus no grad school or maybe just a one year macc. It's all about the long term exit ops.

Yea, I agree there are trade offs. And yea, he did a 1 year macc. Seems really unappealing at the moment though, although unless I luck out he will probably be in a better place in a decade or so, if not sooner.

Oh good, a test case. I'll definitely be sticking it out for the next decade to see how this turns out. This and Johanns PAYE plan.

As another test case - brother did a MAcc (but undergrad in 3 so only 4 years total), spent 6 years doing big 4 audit to get to manager, left for a corporate controller gig. Also recently finished a part time M7 MBA that he didn't pay a dime on (accounting firm originally paying for it and then when he jumped ship the corporation took over). I'll be interested in seeing how our careers progress long term.

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

Yea my brother is a big 4 audit cpa and has to travel and stay in shitholes works a ton and gets paid like shit relative to big law. no thanks.

Better and more exit ops tho. Plus no grad school or maybe just a one year macc. It's all about the long term exit ops.

Yea, I agree there are trade offs. And yea, he did a 1 year macc. Seems really unappealing at the moment though, although unless I luck out he will probably be in a better place in a decade or so, if not sooner.

Oh good, a test case. I'll definitely be sticking it out for the next decade to see how this turns out. This and Johanns PAYE plan.

As another test case - brother did a MAcc (but undergrad in 3 so only 4 years total), spent 6 years doing big 4 audit to get to manager, left for a corporate controller gig. Also recently finished a part time M7 MBA that he didn't pay a dime on (accounting firm originally paying for it and then when he jumped ship the corporation took over). I'll be interested in seeing how our careers progress long term.

FMA.

Does your brother like his job? I assume so....

[Anonymous User]

Yea my brother is a big 4 audit cpa and has to travel and stay in shitholes works a ton and gets paid like shit relative to big law. no thanks.

Better and more exit ops tho. Plus no grad school or maybe just a one year macc. It's all about the long term exit ops.

Yea, I agree there are trade offs. And yea, he did a 1 year macc. Seems really unappealing at the moment though, although unless I luck out he will probably be in a better place in a decade or so, if not sooner.

Oh good, a test case. I'll definitely be sticking it out for the next decade to see how this turns out. This and Johanns PAYE plan.

As another test case - brother did a MAcc (but undergrad in 3 so only 4 years total), spent 6 years doing big 4 audit to get to manager, left for a corporate controller gig. Also recently finished a part time M7 MBA that he didn't pay a dime on (accounting firm originally paying for it and then when he jumped ship the corporation took over). I'll be interested in seeing how our careers progress long term.

FMA.

Does your brother like his job? I assume so....

Much happier at the current job. Was pretty miserable towards the end in public accounting. I have friends my age who work at the same firm that say he would have definitely made partner but it just wasn't worth it for him. Pay is identical at his current gig to what he was making before (low 6 figs) with a million times better hours.