Biglaw associates: are any of us actually happy? Forum

[A. Nony Mouse]

Maybe if you're one of those people who truly doesn't need more than 4 hrs of sleep a night. I worked for someone like that who regularly sent emails at 4:30 because that was when he was up and working after going to bed at midnight. But people who are really truly like this and not deluding themselves are really really rare.

[OneMoreLawHopeful]

Dude said he's billed 270+ for three straight months

I don't get how you can bill 270 for three straight months and still have your wife be happy, still have hobbies, etc. etc.

If we has a newbie I'd say he still just has his honeymoon period, typically 6 months.

Hopeful, you weren't super slow until like March were you?

No, December was my first "busy month," and nothing has been below 150 since then (I think the 150 was May, but I'd have to check).

In terms of the rest of it; I said I don't have kids, and I will concede kids would create a problem. My fiancé works in a similarly demanding field, so she's not upset because she works much like I do.

You also make adjustments to deal with the rest of it. For example, we usually take 2 hours on Sunday to prepare food that we can reheat and eat the rest of the week. I joined 24 hour fitness because sometimes I don't have time to hop on the treadmill before 11pm. We hired a housekeeper that stops by twice a month to do cleaning, and I use purple tie to do my laundry. You just learn how to better budget your time.

[Desert Fox]

[OneMoreLawHopeful]

Dude said he's billed 270+ for three straight months

I don't get how you can bill 270 for three straight months and still have your wife be happy, still have hobbies, etc. etc.

If we has a newbie I'd say he still just has his honeymoon period, typically 6 months.

Hopeful, you weren't super slow until like March were you?

No, December was my first "busy month," and nothing has been below 150 since then (I think the 150 was May, but I'd have to check).

In terms of the rest of it; I said I don't have kids, and I will concede kids would create a problem. My fiancé works in a similarly demanding field, so she's not upset because she works much like I do.

You also make adjustments to deal with the rest of it. For example, we usually take 2 hours on Sunday to prepare food that we can reheat and eat the rest of the week. I joined 24 hour fitness because sometimes I don't have time to hop on the treadmill before 11pm. We hired a housekeeper that stops by twice a month to do cleaning, and I use purple tie to do my laundry. You just learn how to better budget your time.

Okay, that makes sense logistically, but you still have roughly no time to do anything outside of work. Does that not affect your happiness?

I mean, it's not unusual for me to bill 12-13 hours Monday-Thursday (generally working 10am till sometime between midnight and 1am, And I bring lunch + snacks that I eat at my desk, I stay up very late, but I also don't get in before 10), then ~10 hours on Fridays and 2-4 hours on Sundays. I rarely work on Saturdays at all, and I go out most Friday nights.

This also isn't all the time, just the past three months, and after a specific upcoming hearing this will dial back to just under 200/mo.

I think that provides more than enough time to do stuff that's not work, particularly on Friday/Saturday/Sunday.

[Johann]

If your idea of a life is doing absolutely nothing other than work Monday through Thursday and then having a 36 hour period of free time from fri night 7 to sun night 7, sure big law is for you.
And also having Memorial Day vacation plans thrashed. That's fair but due you have low standards for life. One week in Paris is how you justify the other 51 weeks? That's crazy. That's 2% of your time.

[OneMoreLawHopeful]

If your idea of a life is doing absolutely nothing other than work Monday through Thursday and then having a 36 hour period of free time from fri night 7 to sun night 7, sure big law is for you.
And also having Memorial Day vacation plans thrashed. That's fair but due you have low standards for life. One week in Paris is how you justify the other 51 weeks? That's crazy. That's 2% of your time.

I like what I do for a living; you're willfully ignoring many of the things I've said (e.g. this is a distinct 3 month period leading up to a hearing); you're mischaracterizing others in strawman fashion (I mentioned Paris to say I still travel, not that I have reorganized my entire life for the purpose of that trip as you imply).

You have a narrative you want to flog, I get it, but maybe think about where you are in life that you feel the need to tell other people they shouldn't be happy?

[Anonymous User]

There are also some people (I and am willing to concede that this may vary by practice area) who nerdily enjoy the work. If I could do what I do 9-5 for $70k, yeah, maybe I'd do that instead. But I can't. That's not a thing. And there's nothing else I'd rather do, so here I am, by choice. Put me in the happy camp.

[zot1]

People like different things and derive happiness from different sources--if someone feels working all the time and being miserable is worth it so they can have a Ferrari, let them be...

I'll just keep reading to remind myself this is the life I don't want, but that's just me. It's okay for me to want this, and it's okay for others to want something else.

[Ericwa]

How do you guys compare big 4 accounting with big law? I am considering whether doing a master of accounting or law?

user has been warned not to ask questions in Legal Employment when not yet a law student

[kcdc1]

How do you guys compare big 4 accounting with big law? I am considering whether doing a master of accounting or law?

My mother climbed the ladder at a big 4 accounting firm. Seems like similar hours/culture to biglaw, but less pay.

[krads153]

How do you guys compare big 4 accounting with big law? I am considering whether doing a master of accounting or law?

My mother climbed the ladder at a big 4 accounting firm. Seems like similar hours/culture to biglaw, but less pay.

Yeah but accounting has way more QOL friendly exit ops and a lot more jobs in general. You can easily get a 9 to 5 job in accounting if you work for a company (not big 4).

[krads153]

If your idea of a life is doing absolutely nothing other than work Monday through Thursday and then having a 36 hour period of free time from fri night 7 to sun night 7, sure big law is for you.
And also having Memorial Day vacation plans thrashed. That's fair but due you have low standards for life. One week in Paris is how you justify the other 51 weeks? That's crazy. That's 2% of your time.

Is he a first year? First years have "the fear" so I'm not surprised if he thinks it's NBD.

The further you get in biglaw, the less patience you have. Also, yeah his life sounds like it sucks. I generally need a couple hours of down time to do other stuff a day (I sleep pretty late) but if I were billing 270 hours a month, I wouldn't have time to do anything

[Ericwa]

How do you guys compare big 4 accounting with big law? I am considering whether doing a master of accounting or law?

My mother climbed the ladder at a big 4 accounting firm. Seems like similar hours/culture to biglaw, but less pay.

Yeah but accounting has way more QOL friendly exit ops and a lot more exit ops in general. You can easily get a 9 to 5 job in accounting if you work for a company (not big 4).

That's what I heard too. If you can put several years at big 4, you can probably exit into a in house role, and make six figures with good hours.

[Tiago Splitter]

How do you guys compare big 4 accounting with big law? I am considering whether doing a master of accounting or law?

My mother climbed the ladder at a big 4 accounting firm. Seems like similar hours/culture to biglaw, but less pay.

Yeah but accounting has way more QOL friendly exit ops and a lot more exit ops in general. You can easily get a 9 to 5 job in accounting if you work for a company (not big 4).

That's what I heard too. If you can put several years at big 4, you can probably exit into a in house role, and make six figures with good hours.

That's like saying if you put in several years at big law things will all be fine. Everyone I know at Big 4 can't wait to get out. The QOL exit options are there but they pay shit same as QOL exit ops for lawyers.

[Johann]

My best friend went MAC to big4 audit to plante moran to hospital financial analyst (35 hr work week) to hospital financial analyst 40 hour work week. He makes roughly 65k a year in a cheap neighborhood. He's got a pretty good outcome in my book - lives in a half a million dollar house on the lake. He's about to buy an investment property now. He's super cheap and good at saving money. I would not do a MAC instead of law because doesn't seem all that worth it. But I also like living in a big city and hate accountants/accounting.
If I wanted to start a family or live somewhere residential small town I might do mac
Each stop in that progression was 1 year.

[Anonymous User]

a 36 hour period of free time from fri night 7 to sun night 7

That is a huge point of frustration for me - people treating Sundays like inverted workdays. Nothing all day, and then a flurry of activity from 5pm to 10pm for stuff that isn't particularly urgent. I get that this is common in professional services and the business world, where partners/MDs/VPs/etc spend Sundays at church and doing kid stuff, and then plug in after dinner. However, many people - even younger people without kids - are guilty of it.

I'm in my 20s and don't have kids. Sundays are for golf, boozy brunches, and grilling out at night watching HBO. Nowadays I effectively am clear one day a week, with another where I stare at my phone idly with growing anxiety.

[krads153]

How do you guys compare big 4 accounting with big law? I am considering whether doing a master of accounting or law?

My mother climbed the ladder at a big 4 accounting firm. Seems like similar hours/culture to biglaw, but less pay.

Yeah but accounting has way more QOL friendly exit ops and a lot more exit ops in general. You can easily get a 9 to 5 job in accounting if you work for a company (not big 4).

That's what I heard too. If you can put several years at big 4, you can probably exit into a in house role, and make six figures with good hours.

That's like saying if you put in several years at big law things will all be fine. Everyone I know at Big 4 can't wait to get out. The QOL exit options are there but they pay shit same as QOL exit ops for lawyers.

If you become CPA you can make six figures in house somewhere but with legit 9 to 5. In house for law is much less likely to be strictly 9 to 5. Also for those of us who aren't married with being in a big city, accounting gives you a lot more mobility than law. THere's just way more jobs in midsized cities and towns for accountants than lawyers.

Also you don't need to do big 4 to have a good career as an accountant. Plenty of accountants have QOL from the start by working in house. It may not be as much as in house lawyers, but it's usually legit 9 to 5.

I think for QOL purposes, accounting is way better than law.

[zot1]

How do you guys compare big 4 accounting with big law? I am considering whether doing a master of accounting or law?

My mother climbed the ladder at a big 4 accounting firm. Seems like similar hours/culture to biglaw, but less pay.

Yeah but accounting has way more QOL friendly exit ops and a lot more exit ops in general. You can easily get a 9 to 5 job in accounting if you work for a company (not big 4).

That's what I heard too. If you can put several years at big 4, you can probably exit into a in house role, and make six figures with good hours.

That's like saying if you put in several years at big law things will all be fine. Everyone I know at Big 4 can't wait to get out. The QOL exit options are there but they pay shit same as QOL exit ops for lawyers.

If you become CPA you can make six figures in house somewhere but with legit 9 to 5. In house for law is much less likely to be strictly 9 to 5. Also for those of us who aren't married with being in a big city, accounting gives you a lot more mobility than law. THere's just way more jobs in midsized cities and towns for accountants than lawyers.

Also you don't need to do big 4 to have a good career as an accountant. Plenty of accountants have QOL from the start by working in house. It may not be as much as in house lawyers, but it's usually legit 9 to 5.

I think for QOL purposes, accounting is way better than law.

I think this is important to emphasize. Not every in-house counsel position is 9-5. But FWIW, most in-house counsel I've met are former biglaw attorneys and they always say switching was the best thing they've ever done.

[Person1111]

I am a junior at a biglaw firm and consider myself very happy. I think I have four things going for me, all of which are huge:

(1) I don't have debt.

(2) I don't work in NYC.

(3) I have had unusually good/substantive experience. I clerked for a year first, but since I started I have drafted literally dozens of motions (including motions to dismiss, Rule 50 motions, etc.), taken three depositions, had stand-up experience at trial, argued an appeal, and had lots of other cool experiences. I spend less than a quarter of my time doing doc review.

(4) I have what I think is an objectively unusual attitude about work. My parents were both doctors and they both worked 50-70 hour weeks during my entire childhood. That's totally normal to me. I like work. I think it's important to be very, very good at work and to take ownership of what you do. I don't think I'm entitled to my weekends, holidays, etc. It's nice to have those things, but clients' problems don't go away because it's midnight or because it's Sunday or because it's Christmas. I don't like it when people talk about work-life balance because I don't think I can trust that person to grit their teeth and get it done when the going gets tough. My friends think I'm crazy, and maybe I am, but I think it's a blessing in this line of work to believe this and I'm going to embrace it as long as I can.

[Desert Fox]

[zot1]

I am a junior at a biglaw firm and consider myself very happy. I think I have four things going for me, all of which are huge:

(1) I don't have debt.

(2) I don't work in NYC.

(3) I have had unusually good/substantive experience. I clerked for a year first, but since I started I have drafted literally dozens of motions (including motions to dismiss, Rule 50 motions, etc.), taken three depositions, had stand-up experience at trial, argued an appeal, and had lots of other cool experiences. I spend less than a quarter of my time doing doc review.

(4) I have what I think is an objectively unusual attitude about work. My parents were both doctors and they both worked 50-70 hour weeks during my entire childhood. That's totally normal to me. I like work. I think it's important to be very, very good at work and to take ownership of what you do. I don't think I'm entitled to my weekends, holidays, etc. It's nice to have those things, but clients' problems don't go away because it's midnight or because it's Sunday or because it's Christmas. I don't like it when people talk about work-life balance because I don't think I can trust that person to grit their teeth and get it done when the going gets tough. My friends think I'm crazy, and maybe I am, but I think it's a blessing in this line of work to believe this and I'm going to embrace it as long as I can.

Uh just because people enjoy living doesn't mean they don't enjoy working and being the best at what they do. Work hard, play hard, bro.

[El Pollito]

there's nothing more depressing than lawyers "playing hard"

[rpupkin]

I am a junior at a biglaw firm and consider myself very happy. I think I have four things going for me, all of which are huge:

(1) I don't have debt.

(2) I don't work in NYC.

(3) I have had unusually good/substantive experience. I clerked for a year first, but since I started I have drafted literally dozens of motions (including motions to dismiss, Rule 50 motions, etc.), taken three depositions, had stand-up experience at trial, argued an appeal, and had lots of other cool experiences. I spend less than a quarter of my time doing doc review.

(4) I have what I think is an objectively unusual attitude about work. My parents were both doctors and they both worked 50-70 hour weeks during my entire childhood. That's totally normal to me. I like work. I think it's important to be very, very good at work and to take ownership of what you do. I don't think I'm entitled to my weekends, holidays, etc. It's nice to have those things, but clients' problems don't go away because it's midnight or because it's Sunday or because it's Christmas. I don't like it when people talk about work-life balance because I don't think I can trust that person to grit their teeth and get it done when the going gets tough. My friends think I'm crazy, and maybe I am, but I think it's a blessing in this line of work to believe this and I'm going to embrace it as long as I can.

Argued appeals and stand up experience within on year at a firm. Got damn.

OP just said he/she was a junior associate. So not necessarily a first-year. But, yeah, that's a ton of substantive experience.

[Tiago Splitter]

If you become CPA you can make six figures in house somewhere but with legit 9 to 5. In house for law is much less likely to be strictly 9 to 5. Also for those of us who aren't married with being in a big city, accounting gives you a lot more mobility than law. THere's just way more jobs in midsized cities and towns for accountants than lawyers.

Also you don't need to do big 4 to have a good career as an accountant. Plenty of accountants have QOL from the start by working in house. It may not be as much as in house lawyers, but it's usually legit 9 to 5.

I think for QOL purposes, accounting is way better than law.

We can go anecdote for anecdote all night, but I know plenty of in-house lawyers working compliance and shit making 125k or so in cities like Phoenix and St. Louis. Both of the brokerage firms I worked at hired biglaw refugees at around that salary. 40-50 hours a week type stuff. I have a hard time believing accountants in these cities are getting that kind of money with just a few years experience. Maybe I'm wrong.

I think the main issue is that biglawyers don't want to take the pay cut and do the mind numbing work that sometimes comes with a legit QOL. But biglawyers are starting at a much higher place than entry level accountants. If people leaving biglaw were willing to take solid accountant pay in flyover country I'm sure the QOL is available to them too.

[BiglawAssociate]

I am a junior at a biglaw firm and consider myself very happy. I think I have four things going for me, all of which are huge:

(1) I don't have debt.

(2) I don't work in NYC.

(3) I have had unusually good/substantive experience. I clerked for a year first, but since I started I have drafted literally dozens of motions (including motions to dismiss, Rule 50 motions, etc.), taken three depositions, had stand-up experience at trial, argued an appeal, and had lots of other cool experiences. I spend less than a quarter of my time doing doc review.

(4) I have what I think is an objectively unusual attitude about work. My parents were both doctors and they both worked 50-70 hour weeks during my entire childhood. That's totally normal to me. I like work. I think it's important to be very, very good at work and to take ownership of what you do. I don't think I'm entitled to my weekends, holidays, etc. It's nice to have those things, but clients' problems don't go away because it's midnight or because it's Sunday or because it's Christmas. I don't like it when people talk about work-life balance because I don't think I can trust that person to grit their teeth and get it done when the going gets tough. My friends think I'm crazy, and maybe I am, but I think it's a blessing in this line of work to believe this and I'm going to embrace it as long as I can.

What is the point of having parents who worked hard only so that their kids can also work hard for others? I don't get it. The point of working hard is to have shit loads of money so you and your kids don't have to work hard anymore. Let your kid do something fun. Otherwise it's just a cycle of stupid killself shit. Or don't have kids and you can do whatever you want after the age of 40. Being rich aka freedom from work and bullshit is the only thing that makes life worth living. And I don't get people who are rich and "choose" office jobs/medicine/other bullshit. There are other jobs, creative ones, that are tons more enjoyable than office work/medicine.