Lawyers tell you how to get no offered. Forum

[rayiner]

Rayiner gives a lot of great advice on TLS, but you're taking a big risk if you "skip nearly every summer event."

I'm not telling people to skip summer events. But I was at a firm that historically gives everyone an offer (at least a cold-offer, like Cleary did for the girl who jumped into NYC Harbor).

EDIT: The fact that people are getting worked up about attending summer events is exactly why I don't want to hang out with them after work.

[ChardPennington]

3) Fuck firms treating no-offered folks like nuclear waste. There's lots of justifiable reasons to no-offer people that shouldn't preclude those people from finding a job with a firm that's a better fit. This would be better for firms as well as for students.

I'd say this one is the one that smarts the most. After the no-offer, Winston has pretended I do not exist. Even the partner who was my boy. I was shut out.

That blows. I had one partner who was cool about being a reference for me. IMO if you no offer a summer for something less than egregious conduct you owe them at least that

[Anonymous User]

3) Fuck firms treating no-offered folks like nuclear waste. There's lots of justifiable reasons to no-offer people that shouldn't preclude those people from finding a job with a firm that's a better fit. This would be better for firms as well as for students.

I'd say this one is the one that smarts the most. After the no-offer, Winston has pretended I do not exist. Even the partner who was my boy. I was shut out.

That blows. I had one partner who was cool about being a reference for me. IMO if you no offer a summer for something less than egregious conduct you owe them at least that

I had a partner who told me he was definitely cool with being a good reference and then wasn't so there's that too

[bjsesq]

3) Fuck firms treating no-offered folks like nuclear waste. There's lots of justifiable reasons to no-offer people that shouldn't preclude those people from finding a job with a firm that's a better fit. This would be better for firms as well as for students.

I'd say this one is the one that smarts the most. After the no-offer, Winston has pretended I do not exist. Even the partner who was my boy. I was shut out.

That blows. I had one partner who was cool about being a reference for me. IMO if you no offer a summer for something less than egregious conduct you owe them at least that

I had a partner who told me he was definitely cool with being a good reference and then wasn't so there's that too

This also happened to me.

[Anonymous User]

Or you could just do none of that and not accept the firm's offer at the end of the summer.

No-offered anon here.

That sounds no fun. That sounds less than no fun. And in my own weird way, I was hoping to help the next SA at that firm. I was hoping to make a few attorneys there scratch their heads and say, "That guy was smart, his work product was really good sometimes, but he just didn't ... fit." Then they can wonder why I didn't fit.

Granted, few if any of their attorneys may care enough about why I didn't work out to think about it, but considering the firm only hires 1-2 SA's per year, it might generate a little more thought than just a quick write-off. Especially since I now work for a competing law firm, am on track to make partner, and have a pretty good reputation so far.

Basically, two points: (1) if nobody calls out firms on their bullshit, then how can we expect them to ever change; and (2) firms will drop or no-offer you like a bad habit the second they feel so inclined. You don't owe them any more loyalty than they owe you. You owe them a fair economic exchange of labor and a good-faith effort to see if you fit in, because trust me, that's all they are giving to you.

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

Rayiner gives a lot of great advice on TLS, but you're taking a big risk if you "skip nearly every summer event."

I'm not telling people to skip summer events. But I was at a firm that historically gives everyone an offer (at least a cold-offer, like Cleary did for the girl who jumped into NYC Harbor).

EDIT: The fact that people are getting worked up about attending summer events is exactly why I don't want to hang out with them after work.

I'm not planning to skip all summer events at all, but I am just looking for guidance. This thread is about getting no offered in general, and I'm trying to find out how much I should worry about getting no offered from a 100% offer big law firm, or if that is almost impossible unless I jump into NYC harbor etc.

[Birdnals]

I skipped nearly every summer event (at a 100% offer rate firm--I'm not an idiot), because:

1) It's part of the whole stupid pitch where firms pretend like they're sociable places to work when in reality everyone holes up in their office;

2) I had no interest in hanging around a bunch of uptight people on their best behavior.

You're in Manhattan with some money in your pocket and a chill 9-6 job: why would you ever go to a summer event?

I know you are well-known for giving good on-topic advice, and I haven't summered so maybe I am way off, but this seems like the shittiest attitude possible.

Face timing at social events is pretty much required for success in any professional job ever. During summer, you are getting paid obscene money compared to the work you are producing. Why not get to know the people you are working with better during this period when you actually have time to do it? What is so much more pressing on your time than drinking free booze, eating free food, and getting to know people you are working with better?

Not wanting to socialize with people because you aren't besties with them seems like a piss poor way to go through life or approach your professional career.

[IAFG]

I skipped nearly every summer event (at a 100% offer rate firm--I'm not an idiot), because:

1) It's part of the whole stupid pitch where firms pretend like they're sociable places to work when in reality everyone holes up in their office;

2) I had no interest in hanging around a bunch of uptight people on their best behavior.

You're in Manhattan with some money in your pocket and a chill 9-6 job: why would you ever go to a summer event?

I know you are well-known for giving good on-topic advice, and I haven't summered so maybe I am way off, but this seems like the shittiest attitude possible.

Face timing at social events is pretty much required for success in any professional job ever. During summer, you are getting paid obscene money compared to the work you are producing. Why not get to know the people you are working with better during this period when you actually have time to do it? What is so much more pressing on your time than drinking free booze, eating free food, and getting to know people you are working with better?

Not wanting to socialize with people because you aren't besties with them seems like a piss poor way to go through life or approach your professional career.

My summer class had ~10 people. People in my starting class *still* remember what I skipped as a summer. Even though we very consistently offer everyone, attendance matters. When your summer class is 80+, it doesn't matter nearly as much.

[bjsesq]

I don't think Ray was saying he doesn't want to meet new people, Bird. It sounded more like: "Why would I want to hang out with a bunch of stressed summers who are going to try and gun a social get together?" I agree with him. Summers at my firm were awkward shitshows where a bunch of kids tried not to say something stupid. I still went because I was just as scared as everyone else, but it's not a shitty attitude to not want to be there.

[El Pollito]

I'd try to go to most summer events. At least pretend you care for a couple of months.

[Birdnals]

I don't think Ray was saying he doesn't want to meet new people, Bird. It sounded more like: "Why would I want to hang out with a bunch of stressed summers who are going to try and gun a social get together?" I agree with him. Summers at my firm were awkward shitshows where a bunch of kids tried not to say something stupid. I still went because I was just as scared as everyone else, but it's not a shitty attitude to not want to be there.

I will defer to you guys then, as I don't have the SA experience. It just seems weird to me to be that jaded about social events. I have gone to plenty of events where I didn't like a vast majority of people there but I knew I should go for face-time/advancement/ networking (not career service type networking, but a person asking/suggesting I come to the event to introduce me to somebody I should know type deals).

Being at places you don't want to be and getting to know people you might not want to get to know better is just part of being an adult. You never know when these connections will help you out, while I am certain the netflixing or hanging with the same friends I always hang out with 2 nights that week instead of 1 is not going to result in my betterment. There are a lot worse ways to potentially better yourself than drinking free booze and eating free food while suffering through less-than-thrilling conversation.

[84651846190]

She was being sarcastic. Also, you're exaggerating the importance of social skills for associates. At the partner level, social skills are important if you're a relationship partner. But the skills that are important have nothing to do with being affable and shooting the shit. Biglaw clients are usually sophisticated enough to judge you by your past experience and lawyering skills rather than your social skills. And even if they're judging you by your social skills, the social skills that are more important include engendering trust in people, displaying an ability to make solid arguments and keeping a level head. They don't care if you tell funny jokes and have a good golf game. Trust me. I know partners who bring in millions and aren't exactly the most affable, well-liked guys in the room. In fact, you might consider them to be total assholes.

I disagree. The partnerswho are total assholes know how to turn it on when needed. Social skills != nice guy. But if you can't pull your shit together for a trip to a Yankee Game or a happy hour, you're not going to be able to handle a networking event or a in-person meeting.

The problem is the basic assumption - that people who "deserve" it should succeed professionally. Deserve aint got nothing to do with it. Who gets no-offered, what skills are rewarded and what weaknesses are penalized - they're all sort of unfair and flow from a rather arbitrary way that big firms do business. There's no reason that someone who gets no-offered is "worse" than anyone else in an intrinsic, objective sense. But that's not relevant to a firm that makes hiring decisions.

You seem like a 0L.

I've worked at a F500 company and a biglaw firm. The social interactions you're describing are more relevant for business to business interactions that lay foundations for more long-term, strategic relationships. The vast majority of law firms, on the other hand, live from case to case and deal to deal. Interactions with large corporations occur on an as-needed basis, not as an ongoing schmooze fest.

Most corporations are notoriously, and increasingly, disloyal as "institutional clients," with the exception (perhaps) of large financial institutions in New York that work with the same top corporate practices (but this involves a very small minority of biglaw firms and big firm lawyers). One evidence of this is the way they staff outside law firms on their deals/cases: by soliciting pitches. In these pitches, law firms describe how much they'll charge, who would be working on the deal/case and what they think the best arguments are based on a preliminary analysis. Pitches and past experience with law firms (from a holistic, professional perspective) are what companies base hiring decisions on, not the frat-tastic bro-oriented bullshit you're talking about. Sure, there may be a few partners and executives who think like you do, but the vast majority only care about the bottom line: who is going to get the job done satisfactorily for the best price.

[bjsesq]

I don't think Ray was saying he doesn't want to meet new people, Bird. It sounded more like: "Why would I want to hang out with a bunch of stressed summers who are going to try and gun a social get together?" I agree with him. Summers at my firm were awkward shitshows where a bunch of kids tried not to say something stupid. I still went because I was just as scared as everyone else, but it's not a shitty attitude to not want to be there.

I will defer to you guys then, as I don't have the SA experience. It just seems weird to me to be that jaded about social events. I have gone to plenty of events where I didn't like a vast majority of people there but I knew I should go for face-time/advancement/ networking (not career service type networking, but a person asking/suggesting I come to the event to introduce me to somebody I should know type deals).

Being at places you don't want to be and getting to know people you might not want to get to know better is just part of being an adult. You never know when these connections will help you out, while I am certain the netflixing or hanging with the same friends I always hang out with 2 nights that week instead of 1 is not going to result in my betterment.

Don't get me confused: I went because I thought it would benefit me. I sure as shit would have preferred to have been at home, though, knocking the bottom out of my better half.

[IAFG]

I don't think Ray was saying he doesn't want to meet new people, Bird. It sounded more like: "Why would I want to hang out with a bunch of stressed summers who are going to try and gun a social get together?" I agree with him. Summers at my firm were awkward shitshows where a bunch of kids tried not to say something stupid. I still went because I was just as scared as everyone else, but it's not a shitty attitude to not want to be there.

I will defer to you guys then, as I don't have the SA experience. It just seems weird to me to be that jaded about social events. I have gone to plenty of events where I didn't like a vast majority of people there but I knew I should go for face-time/advancement/ networking (not career service type networking, but a person asking/suggesting I come to the event to introduce me to somebody I should know type deals).

Being at places you don't want to be and getting to know people you might not want to get to know better is just part of being an adult. You never know when these connections will help you out, while I am certain the netflixing or hanging with the same friends I always hang out with 2 nights that week instead of 1 is not going to result in my betterment.

Don't get me confused: I went because I thought it would benefit me. I sure as shit would have preferred to have been at home, though, knocking the bottom out of my better half.

Doing what now?

[bjsesq]

I don't think Ray was saying he doesn't want to meet new people, Bird. It sounded more like: "Why would I want to hang out with a bunch of stressed summers who are going to try and gun a social get together?" I agree with him. Summers at my firm were awkward shitshows where a bunch of kids tried not to say something stupid. I still went because I was just as scared as everyone else, but it's not a shitty attitude to not want to be there.

I will defer to you guys then, as I don't have the SA experience. It just seems weird to me to be that jaded about social events. I have gone to plenty of events where I didn't like a vast majority of people there but I knew I should go for face-time/advancement/ networking (not career service type networking, but a person asking/suggesting I come to the event to introduce me to somebody I should know type deals).

Being at places you don't want to be and getting to know people you might not want to get to know better is just part of being an adult. You never know when these connections will help you out, while I am certain the netflixing or hanging with the same friends I always hang out with 2 nights that week instead of 1 is not going to result in my betterment.

Don't get me confused: I went because I thought it would benefit me. I sure as shit would have preferred to have been at home, though, knocking the bottom out of my better half.

Doing what now?

Having anal sex with Botwin.

[IAFG]

"Better half" threw me off

[Birdnals]

Don't get me confused: I went because I thought it would benefit me. I sure as shit would have preferred to have been at home, though, knocking the bottom out of my better half.

Fair.

It just seems like all the things ray could possibly hang his hat on about the shittiness of law firm no offers/SA life pressures, being asked to go to social events seems like it would be at the very bottom, or at least close to the bottom, of the totem pole. And it's not like this is exclusive to biglaw life.

Having the attitude of "I see through this as BS, and worst case I will get cold offered, so thanks but not thanks suckers!" towards social events seems like a shitty way to start a career. Not just a law career, but really just about any career.

[bjsesq]

"Better half" threw me off

<3, dooder

[84651846190]

I don't think Ray was saying he doesn't want to meet new people, Bird. It sounded more like: "Why would I want to hang out with a bunch of stressed summers who are going to try and gun a social get together?" I agree with him. Summers at my firm were awkward shitshows where a bunch of kids tried not to say something stupid. I still went because I was just as scared as everyone else, but it's not a shitty attitude to not want to be there.

I will defer to you guys then, as I don't have the SA experience. It just seems weird to me to be that jaded about social events. I have gone to plenty of events where I didn't like a vast majority of people there but I knew I should go for face-time/advancement/ networking (not career service type networking, but a person asking/suggesting I come to the event to introduce me to somebody I should know type deals).

Being at places you don't want to be and getting to know people you might not want to get to know better is just part of being an adult. You never know when these connections will help you out, while I am certain the netflixing or hanging with the same friends I always hang out with 2 nights that week instead of 1 is not going to result in my betterment. There are a lot worse ways to potentially better yourself than drinking free booze and eating free food while suffering through less-than-thrilling conversation.

Almost every associate is good enough at kissing ass to pass the (very low) bar of being acceptable to work with. Partners care about your work product. Period. As long as you're not in, oh I don't know, the bottom 1-5% of social retards, you're going to be judged 100% on your work product and initiative.

Also, if you do good work, you don't need to know every fucking attorney in the firm. You end up working mostly with a handful of people who will continually feed you work if you produce for them. I understand your feeling of needing to check boxes by going to a bunch of social events, but it's really not as crucial as you're making it out to be.

[Birdnals]

Almost every associate is good enough at kissing ass to pass the (very low) bar of being acceptable to work with. Partners care about your work product. Period. As long as you're not in, oh I don't know, the bottom 1-5% of social retards, you're going to be judged 100% on your work product and initiative.

Also, if you do good work, you don't need to know every fucking attorney in the firm. You end up working mostly with a handful of people who will continually feed you work if you produce for them. I understand your feeling of needing to check boxes by going to a bunch of social events, but it's really not as crucial as you're making it out to be.

My only experience is from business/~70 person firm, so again I defer to you guys for biglaw, but IME just showing up to things is like, 10-50% of success. I don't think the point of going to any social event is to know every fucking anybody, but having people know you (even if you haven't produced anything for them) and sharing small talk over some beers is (as long as you aren't an idiot about it) always at the least a net neutral and at best a net positive.

I mean, aren't you people who have been out a few years a member of any professional or charitable boards? Sure, helping good causes and developing professionally is cool and all, but everybody knows that's not the point of getting on those boards.

But maybe I just am more socially inclined than others, because I almost always manage to have a good time at these events I find myself pressured to go to and I know for some people these types of small-talk laced events are like pulling teeth.


ETA: sorry for derailing an otherwise entertaining thread. This all just seemed confusing to me. Forget I said anything and continue to make me laugh TLS.

[seespotrun]

Or you could just do none of that and not accept the firm's offer at the end of the summer.

No-offered anon here.

That sounds no fun. That sounds less than no fun. And in my own weird way, I was hoping to help the next SA at that firm. I was hoping to make a few attorneys there scratch their heads and say, "That guy was smart, his work product was really good sometimes, but he just didn't ... fit." Then they can wonder why I didn't fit.

Granted, few if any of their attorneys may care enough about why I didn't work out to think about it, but considering the firm only hires 1-2 SA's per year, it might generate a little more thought than just a quick write-off. Especially since I now work for a competing law firm, am on track to make partner, and have a pretty good reputation so far.

Basically, two points: (1) if nobody calls out firms on their bullshit, then how can we expect them to ever change; and (2) firms will drop or no-offer you like a bad habit the second they feel so inclined. You don't owe them any more loyalty than they owe you. You owe them a fair economic exchange of labor and a good-faith effort to see if you fit in, because trust me, that's all they are giving to you.

lol

They didn't have to wonder why you didn't fit. They probably just thought, "Welp, that guy was an asshole" and erased you from their memory. The narcissistic distortion of your "social justice" campaign is some of the dumbest shit I've read on this site.

[Old Gregg]

All these kinds of threads have three pages in the beginning with shit we can all agree on, the next pages contain arguments over little shit that makes the person a candidate for embodying the message of the thread, and then we go off on tangent

/tls

[seespotrun]

All these kinds of threads have three pages in the beginning with shit we can all agree on, the next pages contain arguments over little shit that makes the person a candidate for embodying the message of the thread, and then we go off on tangent

/tls

And inevitably there's a poster who sees the bigger picture and summarizes the evolution of similar threads.

(and inevitably there's a poster who calls out that poster . . . and so on)

[El Pollito]

Or you could just do none of that and not accept the firm's offer at the end of the summer.

No-offered anon here.

That sounds no fun. That sounds less than no fun. And in my own weird way, I was hoping to help the next SA at that firm. I was hoping to make a few attorneys there scratch their heads and say, "That guy was smart, his work product was really good sometimes, but he just didn't ... fit." Then they can wonder why I didn't fit.

Granted, few if any of their attorneys may care enough about why I didn't work out to think about it, but considering the firm only hires 1-2 SA's per year, it might generate a little more thought than just a quick write-off. Especially since I now work for a competing law firm, am on track to make partner, and have a pretty good reputation so far.

Basically, two points: (1) if nobody calls out firms on their bullshit, then how can we expect them to ever change; and (2) firms will drop or no-offer you like a bad habit the second they feel so inclined. You don't owe them any more loyalty than they owe you. You owe them a fair economic exchange of labor and a good-faith effort to see if you fit in, because trust me, that's all they are giving to you.

lol

They didn't have to wonder why you didn't fit. They probably just thought, "Welp, that guy was an asshole" and erased you from their memory. The narcissistic distortion of your "social justice" campaign is some of the dumbest shit I've read on this site.

Impressive post hoc rationalization though.

[seespotrun]

YOU CAN'T NO-OFFER ME. I'M NO-OFFERING YOU!