Milbank/Davis Polk/Cravath Scale: NYC to 215-415k Forum

[Anonymous User]

SLS is overrated. HLS has better medians.

LOL. When HLS grads are still salty that SLS broke the tie with HLS in USNews and HLS is #3.

YSH to YSChi by 2030, HLS headed for TTT status

On a related note, can someone explain to me why UChi > Columbia is such a thing on TLS? Columbia has better medians, essentially the same outcomes, and Manhattan >>>> South Side of Chicago. Unless you're a FedSoc bro there's literally no reason to choose UChi.

@ the fedsoc comment.

Anyway, UChi > Columbia is not just "such a thing" on TLS. It's also the dominant view in academia and in the legal industry in general.

UChi's pull in academia and unicorn outcomes is due almost entirely to its status as a haven for FedSoc types.

I don't think having a 0.7% chance of clerking for Clarence Thomas instead of merely a 0.3% chance is worth enduring three years of Chicago winters UChi's notorious fun-hating, but maybe that's just me.

[Anonymous User]

New theory behind the bizarre DPW/V10 delay: they’ve been waiting until Tuesday, 2/22/22 (tomorrow) to raise the scale to $222,222.

222,222.50

[Anonymous User]

SLS is overrated. HLS has better medians.

LOL. When HLS grads are still salty that SLS broke the tie with HLS in USNews and HLS is #3.

YSH to YSChi by 2030, HLS headed for TTT status

On a related note, can someone explain to me why UChi > Columbia is such a thing on TLS? Columbia has better medians, essentially the same outcomes, and Manhattan >>>> South Side of Chicago. Unless you're a FedSoc bro there's literally no reason to choose UChi.

@ the fedsoc comment.

Anyway, UChi > Columbia is not just "such a thing" on TLS. It's also the dominant view in academia and in the legal industry in general.

UChi's pull in academia and unicorn outcomes is due almost entirely to its status as a haven for FedSoc types.

I don't think having a 0.7% chance of clerking for Clarence Thomas instead of merely a 0.3% chance is worth enduring three years of Chicago winters UChi's notorious fun-hating, but maybe that's just me.

absolutely ridiculous.

[Anonymous User]

SLS is overrated. HLS has better medians.

Implying medians matter compared to exits. Granted, S probably equals (or is only slightly better than) H in this regard. But LMFAO at the idea that medians make a school.

Yeah HLS has more liberal arts majors with 4.0s who guessed one more question right on a standardized test. SFW? H's outcomes also suck. It's just a slightly better georgetown with a cooler name. Lumping it together with YS makes no sense.

Counterpoint: HLS has more lay prestige by a lot, which might actually have value since every other TikTok lawyer I see now is "Harvard Law Couple" or "Harvard Law alum talks about X" or "Law Tips from a Harvard Lawyer" or the like.

Harvard has more lay prestige than Yale does. That doesn't make it better.

Porsche also has more lay prestige than bugatti or aston martin...because it's more accessible and more commonly seen. Also HLS derives its lay prestige mostly from its undergrad

[Anonymous User]

SLS is overrated. HLS has better medians.

LOL. When HLS grads are still salty that SLS broke the tie with HLS in USNews and HLS is #3.

YSH to YSChi by 2030, HLS headed for TTT status

On a related note, can someone explain to me why UChi > Columbia is such a thing on TLS? Columbia has better medians, essentially the same outcomes, and Manhattan >>>> South Side of Chicago. Unless you're a FedSoc bro there's literally no reason to choose UChi.

@ the fedsoc comment.

Anyway, UChi > Columbia is not just "such a thing" on TLS. It's also the dominant view in academia and in the legal industry in general.

UChi's pull in academia and unicorn outcomes is due almost entirely to its status as a haven for FedSoc types.

I don't think having a 0.7% chance of clerking for Clarence Thomas instead of merely a 0.3% chance is worth enduring three years of Chicago winters UChi's notorious fun-hating, but maybe that's just me.

We get it. You hate fedsoc. But this simply isn't true. Non fedsoc students at Chi get clerkships at higher rates than at CLS. I had plenty of profs who went there, all progressives. It's a good school! Also the 0.7% might be snark but if they continue to have consistent SCOTUS clerkships, in a couple of decades we'll see a slew of uofc grads on SCOTUS. The trend is definitely that it may be considered more prestigious than HLS eventually.

[enibs]

True story. In 2000, fearful of losing talent to west coast firms at the height of the dot com bubble, Skadden raised base salary from $125K to $140K. Then the bubble burst and no one else matched. Skadden partners were pissed. For the next five years, Skadden paid year end bonuses that were $15K below market to offset their above market base salary until market base finally caught up. Skadden has never been a market leader since.

Is this flame? Any sources?

Main source is that I saw it happen. But here’s a story from 2006, when base finally caught up, noting that Skadden base had been at $140K since 2000:

http://hlrecord.org/biglaw-firms-announ ... rst-years/

[Anonymous User]

SLS is overrated. HLS has better medians.

Implying medians matter compared to exits. Granted, S probably equals (or is only slightly better than) H in this regard. But LMFAO at the idea that medians make a school.

Yeah HLS has more liberal arts majors with 4.0s who guessed one more question right on a standardized test. SFW? H's outcomes also suck. It's just a slightly better georgetown with a cooler name. Lumping it together with YS makes no sense.

Counterpoint: HLS has more lay prestige by a lot, which might actually have value since every other TikTok lawyer I see now is "Harvard Law Couple" or "Harvard Law alum talks about X" or "Law Tips from a Harvard Lawyer" or the like.

Harvard has more lay prestige than Yale does. That doesn't make it better.

“Better” is different to different people and if you wanna be a pop culture talking head lawyer to normal people (probably more common with the YouTube generation) then yeah, Harvard would be “better” for you than any other school. If you want to be a law professor, Yale is “better” than everywhere else.

Every T-13 student and alum that posts on this cesspool of neuroticism is obsessed with convincing themselves that whatever outcome they got is just as good as anyone else’s, and a big part of achieving that comes from shit talking the other schools. That’s how it is

[Anonymous User]

New theory behind the bizarre DPW/V10 delay: they’ve been waiting until Tuesday, 2/22/22 (tomorrow) to raise the scale to $222,222.

222,222.50

Except stub years, who will get $222,221.99

[Anonymous User]

Can someone explain to me how Skadden ended up as V3 anyway? Much of the V10 are either richer or more selective or both.

I think a lot has to do with Skadden having strong non-NY offices, many of which tend to be self-sufficient and well regarded while most of their older white shoe peers (like Cravath, S&C) don't really have any major offices outside NYC. So Skadden has a stronger national reputation than the NY-centric firms. And while Skadden isn't as grade selective as some of its peers, they purportedly care a lot about fit/personality so they're weirdly selective in other ways (dgaf whether it's actually a better approach)

??? Highly doubt that this is it. Vault is a NYC corp ranking first and foremost. Places like Kirkland, Sidley, Gibson have waaay stronger non-NYC offices than Skadden but are obviously not part of the "V3." Where does Skadden have a strong non-NYC office? Their DC office isn't even close to the top of the market. Their Houston office is bottom of the barrel. Kirkland and Sidley rule Chicago. NYC is literally the only city where Skadden has an unusually strong office.

I was referring to the older NY-centric white shoe peers (which aren't Kirkland, Latham, Sidley or Gibson) that don't have significant non-NYC offices and so I think Skadden gets a bump up in that regard. And totally agree that Skadden's non-NYC offices aren't all top of the market—I'm just saying they're generally pretty good or near the top of the market (and I think, at least with regards to corporate work, it's def an exaggeration to say that Kirkland, Sidley and Gibson have waaay stronger non-NYC practices). Skadden DC, Chicago, LA, Palo Alto, London, etc. are all well regarded. All I'm saying is that that counts for a lot, since it's not just NY lawyers who vote on vault.

Kirkland almost single-handedly dominates one of the most profitable transactions markets in the country (Houston). Skadden Houston, in contrast, is outmatched by the likes of Shearman and White & Case. Kirkland and Sidley corporate are leagues ahead of Skadden Chicago. Just two examples.

Everyone knows the Vault rankings are skewed by overwhelming numbers of NYC corporate associates. There are after waaay more biglaw jobs in NY than in other markets. Skadden's ranking isn't materially changed by the fact that they have some mediocre offices outside of NY. There are other reasons for Skadden's inflated ranking, as other posters have pointed out.

Also in DC, which is the most selective, prestigious, and elitist market in the county, Skadden is in a lower tier than Gibson, Kirkland, Latham, Sidley, and Paul Weiss (also lower than DC firms like W&C and Covington, and boutiques like Kellogg.... but the current discussion is just comparing them with other big national competitors).

Gibson and Latham also outpace Skadden in LA, and I think Kirkland is basically around the same level.

[Anonymous User]

SLS is overrated. HLS has better medians.

Implying medians matter compared to exits. Granted, S probably equals (or is only slightly better than) H in this regard. But LMFAO at the idea that medians make a school.

Yeah HLS has more liberal arts majors with 4.0s who guessed one more question right on a standardized test. SFW? H's outcomes also suck. It's just a slightly better georgetown with a cooler name. Lumping it together with YS makes no sense.

Counterpoint: HLS has more lay prestige by a lot, which might actually have value since every other TikTok lawyer I see now is "Harvard Law Couple" or "Harvard Law alum talks about X" or "Law Tips from a Harvard Lawyer" or the like.

Harvard has more lay prestige than Yale does. That doesn't make it better.

“Better” is different to different people and if you wanna be a pop culture talking head lawyer to normal people (probably more common with the YouTube generation) then yeah, Harvard would be “better” for you than any other school. If you want to be a law professor, Yale is “better” than everywhere else.

Every T-13 student and alum that posts on this cesspool of neuroticism is obsessed with convincing themselves that whatever outcome they got is just as good as anyone else’s, and a big part of achieving that comes from shit talking the other schools. That’s how it is

Cess pool of neuroticism

[Anonymous User]

SLS is overrated. HLS has better medians.

Implying medians matter compared to exits. Granted, S probably equals (or is only slightly better than) H in this regard. But LMFAO at the idea that medians make a school.

Yeah HLS has more liberal arts majors with 4.0s who guessed one more question right on a standardized test. SFW? H's outcomes also suck. It's just a slightly better georgetown with a cooler name. Lumping it together with YS makes no sense.

Counterpoint: HLS has more lay prestige by a lot, which might actually have value since every other TikTok lawyer I see now is "Harvard Law Couple" or "Harvard Law alum talks about X" or "Law Tips from a Harvard Lawyer" or the like.

Harvard has more lay prestige than Yale does. That doesn't make it better.

“Better” is different to different people and if you wanna be a pop culture talking head lawyer to normal people (probably more common with the YouTube generation) then yeah, Harvard would be “better” for you than any other school. If you want to be a law professor, Yale is “better” than everywhere else.

Every T-13 student and alum that posts on this cesspool of neuroticism is obsessed with convincing themselves that whatever outcome they got is just as good as anyone else’s, and a big part of achieving that comes from shit talking the other schools. That’s how it is

I go to a school currently outside the top 50 and am going to be making the same amount as everyone here (except Milbank chads) despite failing out of undergrad and taking the LSAT just to see what I'd get. Imagine trying all of your life to get into Harvard law and then making the same amount of money as someone who just fucked around the entire time. At least your firm bio is cooler than mine will be.

[Anonymous User]

If you're at Y/H/S, you should be upset you didn't take take the Ruby/Hammy to go to Chi/CLS

at Y/H/S and both Chi and CLS waitlisted me. Chi/CLS coming for the top spot, you heard it here first

[Anonymous User]

SLS is overrated. HLS has better medians.

Implying medians matter compared to exits. Granted, S probably equals (or is only slightly better than) H in this regard. But LMFAO at the idea that medians make a school.

Yeah HLS has more liberal arts majors with 4.0s who guessed one more question right on a standardized test. SFW? H's outcomes also suck. It's just a slightly better georgetown with a cooler name. Lumping it together with YS makes no sense.

Counterpoint: HLS has more lay prestige by a lot, which might actually have value since every other TikTok lawyer I see now is "Harvard Law Couple" or "Harvard Law alum talks about X" or "Law Tips from a Harvard Lawyer" or the like.

Harvard has more lay prestige than Yale does. That doesn't make it better.

“Better” is different to different people and if you wanna be a pop culture talking head lawyer to normal people (probably more common with the YouTube generation) then yeah, Harvard would be “better” for you than any other school. If you want to be a law professor, Yale is “better” than everywhere else.

Every T-13 student and alum that posts on this cesspool of neuroticism is obsessed with convincing themselves that whatever outcome they got is just as good as anyone else’s, and a big part of achieving that comes from shit talking the other schools. That’s how it is

I go to a school currently outside the top 50 and am going to be making the same amount as everyone here (except Milbank chads) despite failing out of undergrad and taking the LSAT just to see what I'd get. Imagine trying all of your life to get into Harvard law and then making the same amount of money as someone who just fucked around the entire time. At least your firm bio is cooler than mine will be.

The COA clerk Susman associate reading this who just got a $200K bonus off a contingency win, looking forward to a >50% chance of making partner, reading this be like...

[Anonymous User]

Implying medians matter compared to exits. Granted, S probably equals (or is only slightly better than) H in this regard. But LMFAO at the idea that medians make a school.

Yeah HLS has more liberal arts majors with 4.0s who guessed one more question right on a standardized test. SFW? H's outcomes also suck. It's just a slightly better georgetown with a cooler name. Lumping it together with YS makes no sense.

Counterpoint: HLS has more lay prestige by a lot, which might actually have value since every other TikTok lawyer I see now is "Harvard Law Couple" or "Harvard Law alum talks about X" or "Law Tips from a Harvard Lawyer" or the like.

Harvard has more lay prestige than Yale does. That doesn't make it better.

“Better” is different to different people and if you wanna be a pop culture talking head lawyer to normal people (probably more common with the YouTube generation) then yeah, Harvard would be “better” for you than any other school. If you want to be a law professor, Yale is “better” than everywhere else.

Every T-13 student and alum that posts on this cesspool of neuroticism is obsessed with convincing themselves that whatever outcome they got is just as good as anyone else’s, and a big part of achieving that comes from shit talking the other schools. That’s how it is

I go to a school currently outside the top 50 and am going to be making the same amount as everyone here (except Milbank chads) despite failing out of undergrad and taking the LSAT just to see what I'd get. Imagine trying all of your life to get into Harvard law and then making the same amount of money as someone who just fucked around the entire time. At least your firm bio is cooler than mine will be.

The COA clerk Susman associate reading this who just got a $200K bonus off a contingency win, looking forward to a >50% chance of making partner, reading this be like...

How many of those people there are at Harvard a year? 10? 20? Irony still stands for the remaining 580 people

[Anonymous User]

Can someone explain to me how Skadden ended up as V3 anyway? Much of the V10 are either richer or more selective or both.

For a long time it used to be S&C. Most lawyers probably don't realize Skadden is ranked ahead of Sullcrom.

Kinda like Stanford switching places with Harvard on the law school rankings. Harvard is still Harvard, really.

[Anonymous User]

I go to a school currently outside the top 50 and am going to be making the same amount as everyone here (except Milbank chads) despite failing out of undergrad and taking the LSAT just to see what I'd get. Imagine trying all of your life to get into Harvard law and then making the same amount of money as someone who just fucked around the entire time. At least your firm bio is cooler than mine will be.

Hey I'm glad this worked for you and all but you do know this is a dumb take, right? Are all your classmates getting biglaw? Are a quarter of them clerking?

[Anonymous User]

True story. In 2000, fearful of losing talent to west coast firms at the height of the dot com bubble, Skadden raised base salary from $125K to $140K. Then the bubble burst and no one else matched. Skadden partners were pissed. For the next five years, Skadden paid year end bonuses that were $15K below market to offset their above market base salary until market base finally caught up. Skadden has never been a market leader since.

Is this flame? Any sources?

Main source is that I saw it happen. But here’s a story from 2006, when base finally caught up, noting that Skadden base had been at $140K since 2000:

http://hlrecord.org/biglaw-firms-announ ... rst-years/

I’ve been reading about this round of associate salary bump as a compensation “bubble,” which may pop, and there may be some truth to it afterall. Looks like v10s are holding out in anticipation of weathering a possible recession

[Anonymous User]

I go to a school currently outside the top 50 and am going to be making the same amount as everyone here (except Milbank chads) despite failing out of undergrad and taking the LSAT just to see what I'd get. Imagine trying all of your life to get into Harvard law and then making the same amount of money as someone who just fucked around the entire time. At least your firm bio is cooler than mine will be.

Hey I'm glad this worked for you and all but you do know this is a dumb take, right? Are all your classmates getting biglaw? Are a quarter of them clerking?

https://abovethelaw.com/2021/05/the-law ... hips-2020/
A quarter of what law school clerking, you mean? Vanderbilt?

[Anonymous User]

True story. In 2000, fearful of losing talent to west coast firms at the height of the dot com bubble, Skadden raised base salary from $125K to $140K. Then the bubble burst and no one else matched. Skadden partners were pissed. For the next five years, Skadden paid year end bonuses that were $15K below market to offset their above market base salary until market base finally caught up. Skadden has never been a market leader since.

Is this flame? Any sources?

Main source is that I saw it happen. But here’s a story from 2006, when base finally caught up, noting that Skadden base had been at $140K since 2000:

http://hlrecord.org/biglaw-firms-announ ... rst-years/

I’ve been reading about this round of associate salary bump as a compensation “bubble,” which may pop, and there may be some truth to it afterall. Looks like v10s are holding out in anticipation of weathering a possible recession

It's not a bubble when it's the same money adjusted for inflation. A bunch of v80s are feeling the squeeze but nobody said they need to compete with V50s. The only bubble is the special bonuses, and that's why they are special.

[enibs]

True story. In 2000, fearful of losing talent to west coast firms at the height of the dot com bubble, Skadden raised base salary from $125K to $140K. Then the bubble burst and no one else matched. Skadden partners were pissed. For the next five years, Skadden paid year end bonuses that were $15K below market to offset their above market base salary until market base finally caught up. Skadden has never been a market leader since.

Is this flame? Any sources?

Main source is that I saw it happen. But here’s a story from 2006, when base finally caught up, noting that Skadden base had been at $140K since 2000:

http://hlrecord.org/biglaw-firms-announ ... rst-years/

I’ve been reading about this round of associate salary bump as a compensation “bubble,” which may pop, and there may be some truth to it afterall. Looks like v10s are holding out in anticipation of weathering a possible recession

With the market tanking and Russia about to invade Ukraine, it’s a real question whether Milbank 2022 is Skadden 2000. I think too many firms have already matched to walk it back at this point, and everyone will match eventually (everyone being all traditionally market paying firms), but if the world continues to decline, that’s by no means a certainty.

[Anonymous User]

Implying medians matter compared to exits. Granted, S probably equals (or is only slightly better than) H in this regard. But LMFAO at the idea that medians make a school.

Yeah HLS has more liberal arts majors with 4.0s who guessed one more question right on a standardized test. SFW? H's outcomes also suck. It's just a slightly better georgetown with a cooler name. Lumping it together with YS makes no sense.

Counterpoint: HLS has more lay prestige by a lot, which might actually have value since every other TikTok lawyer I see now is "Harvard Law Couple" or "Harvard Law alum talks about X" or "Law Tips from a Harvard Lawyer" or the like.

Harvard has more lay prestige than Yale does. That doesn't make it better.

“Better” is different to different people and if you wanna be a pop culture talking head lawyer to normal people (probably more common with the YouTube generation) then yeah, Harvard would be “better” for you than any other school. If you want to be a law professor, Yale is “better” than everywhere else.

Every T-13 student and alum that posts on this cesspool of neuroticism is obsessed with convincing themselves that whatever outcome they got is just as good as anyone else’s, and a big part of achieving that comes from shit talking the other schools. That’s how it is

I go to a school currently outside the top 50 and am going to be making the same amount as everyone here (except Milbank chads) despite failing out of undergrad and taking the LSAT just to see what I'd get. Imagine trying all of your life to get into Harvard law and then making the same amount of money as someone who just fucked around the entire time. At least your firm bio is cooler than mine will be.

The COA clerk Susman associate reading this who just got a $200K bonus off a contingency win, looking forward to a >50% chance of making partner, reading this be like...

Wait, remind me, is this a thread about Susman salary and bonuses or a thread about the Milbank market raises? I'm getting paid market just like this entire thread (or formerly market RIP) so why do I care about a lit boutique that pays above market? As for the other guy, who cares how many of my classmates got big law? Obviously going to Harvard or CCN gives you the best odds, but it literally doesn't matter except to jerk off to your bio and piece of paper. I wasn't concerned about getting big law going into school. I could've gotten into HYSCCNWXYZ if I had put a MoDiCuM of effort into undergrad, but I'm fine with the way things worked out.

Anyways, I'm just making a light-hearted joke that I can shit on you guys' schools too because the amount of effort and tryhard to get the exact same result is hilarious. Sure, I guess I can't shit on the Susman COA clerk or the future law professor or whatever, but I just want to make my big law salary and be rich.

[Anonymous User]

Yeah HLS has more liberal arts majors with 4.0s who guessed one more question right on a standardized test. SFW? H's outcomes also suck. It's just a slightly better georgetown with a cooler name. Lumping it together with YS makes no sense.

Counterpoint: HLS has more lay prestige by a lot, which might actually have value since every other TikTok lawyer I see now is "Harvard Law Couple" or "Harvard Law alum talks about X" or "Law Tips from a Harvard Lawyer" or the like.

Harvard has more lay prestige than Yale does. That doesn't make it better.

“Better” is different to different people and if you wanna be a pop culture talking head lawyer to normal people (probably more common with the YouTube generation) then yeah, Harvard would be “better” for you than any other school. If you want to be a law professor, Yale is “better” than everywhere else.

Every T-13 student and alum that posts on this cesspool of neuroticism is obsessed with convincing themselves that whatever outcome they got is just as good as anyone else’s, and a big part of achieving that comes from shit talking the other schools. That’s how it is

I go to a school currently outside the top 50 and am going to be making the same amount as everyone here (except Milbank chads) despite failing out of undergrad and taking the LSAT just to see what I'd get. Imagine trying all of your life to get into Harvard law and then making the same amount of money as someone who just fucked around the entire time. At least your firm bio is cooler than mine will be.

The COA clerk Susman associate reading this who just got a $200K bonus off a contingency win, looking forward to a >50% chance of making partner, reading this be like...

Wait, remind me, is this a thread about Susman salary and bonuses or a thread about the Milbank market raises? I'm getting paid market just like this entire thread (or formerly market RIP) so why do I care about a lit boutique that pays above market? As for the other guy, who cares how many of my classmates got big law? Obviously going to Harvard or CCN gives you the best odds, but it literally doesn't matter except to jerk off to your bio and piece of paper. I wasn't concerned about getting big law going into school. I could've gotten into HYSCCNWXYZ if I had put a MoDiCuM of effort into undergrad, but I'm fine with the way things worked out.

Anyways, I'm just making a light-hearted joke that I can shit on you guys' schools too because the amount of effort and tryhard to get the exact same result is hilarious. Sure, I guess I can't shit on the Susman COA clerk or the future law professor or whatever, but I just want to make my big law salary and be rich.

LOL as if your post wasn't just as tangential to the thread's topic. Nice deflection. Also that second paragraph is internally inconsistent.

[Anonymous User]

If you're at Y/H/S, you should be upset you didn't take take the Ruby/Hammy to go to Chi/CLS

at Y/H/S and both Chi and CLS waitlisted me. Chi/CLS coming for the top spot, you heard it here first

That's just YP, bro

[Anonymous User]

I'm willing to forego a raise just to see the posters who've turned this forum into a 0L prestige debate never find happiness

[Anonymous User]

How bad would attrition have to become for firms to raise?