Milbank/Davis Polk/Cravath Scale: NYC to 215-415k Forum

[Anonymous User]

SLS is overrated. HLS has better medians.

Implying medians matter compared to exits. Granted, S probably equals (or is only slightly better than) H in this regard. But LMFAO at the idea that medians make a school.

Yeah HLS has more liberal arts majors with 4.0s who guessed one more question right on a standardized test. SFW? H's outcomes also suck. It's just a slightly better georgetown with a cooler name. Lumping it together with YS makes no sense.

[Anonymous User]

Glad we're getting to the important questions here of comparing HLS to SLS.

TLS only exists so we can flame each other about schools, so it's always on topic

[Anonymous User]

Not sure about everyone else, but I'd rather spend three years in the Bay Area than Cambridge. SLS class size is also 1/3 of HLS class size.

[Anonymous User]

Can someone explain to me how Skadden ended up as V3 anyway? Much of the V10 are either richer or more selective or both.

I think a lot has to do with Skadden having strong non-NY offices, many of which tend to be self-sufficient and well regarded while most of their older white shoe peers (like Cravath, S&C) don't really have any major offices outside NYC. So Skadden has a stronger national reputation than the NY-centric firms. And while Skadden isn't as grade selective as some of its peers, they purportedly care a lot about fit/personality so they're weirdly selective in other ways (dgaf whether it's actually a better approach)

??? Highly doubt that this is it. Vault is a NYC corp ranking first and foremost. Places like Kirkland, Sidley, Gibson have waaay stronger non-NYC offices than Skadden but are obviously not part of the "V3." Where does Skadden have a strong non-NYC office? Their DC office isn't even close to the top of the market. Their Houston office is bottom of the barrel. Kirkland and Sidley rule Chicago. NYC is literally the only city where Skadden has an unusually strong office.

I was referring to the older NY-centric white shoe peers (which aren't Kirkland, Latham, Sidley or Gibson) that don't have significant non-NYC offices and so I think Skadden gets a bump up in that regard. And totally agree that Skadden's non-NYC offices aren't all top of the market—I'm just saying they're generally pretty good or near the top of the market (and I think, at least with regards to corporate work, it's def an exaggeration to say that Kirkland, Sidley and Gibson have waaay stronger non-NYC practices). Skadden DC, Chicago, LA, Palo Alto, London, etc. are all well regarded. All I'm saying is that that counts for a lot, since it's not just NY lawyers who vote on vault.

Kirkland almost single-handedly dominates one of the most profitable transactions markets in the country (Houston). Skadden Houston, in contrast, is outmatched by the likes of Shearman and White & Case. Kirkland and Sidley corporate are leagues ahead of Skadden Chicago. Just two examples.

Everyone knows the Vault rankings are skewed by overwhelming numbers of NYC corporate associates. There are after waaay more biglaw jobs in NY than in other markets. Skadden's ranking isn't materially changed by the fact that they have some mediocre offices outside of NY. There are other reasons for Skadden's inflated ranking, as other posters have pointed out.

I don't think most people would traditionally include Sidley within the V10 so not sure why you keep bringing them up. I'm a NY V5 corporate associate and agree that Vault is heavily NY-centric. But come on now, you can't discount the rest of the country like that lol. The V10 points spread is pretty tiny and you can't be serious to think that other markets don't have a material impact on the rankings.

Skadden is one of the few (if not the only) New York-based V10s with prominent non-NY offices which is why I think they tend to get a bump up relative to their peers. My point is that the V10 are dominated by NY-based firms and that's what differentiates Skadden from them. Agree that Latham/Kirkland have strong national presences as Skadden (and I would argue that Latham and Kirkland similarly get a boost in the vault rankings due to their national presences). Compared to those two, I think Skadden's just been in the limelight longer and has a stronger NY office, so it has a slight edge.

[Anonymous User]

Can someone explain to me how Skadden ended up as V3 anyway? Much of the V10 are either richer or more selective or both.

I think a lot has to do with Skadden having strong non-NY offices, many of which tend to be self-sufficient and well regarded while most of their older white shoe peers (like Cravath, S&C) don't really have any major offices outside NYC. So Skadden has a stronger national reputation than the NY-centric firms. And while Skadden isn't as grade selective as some of its peers, they purportedly care a lot about fit/personality so they're weirdly selective in other ways (dgaf whether it's actually a better approach)

??? Highly doubt that this is it. Vault is a NYC corp ranking first and foremost. Places like Kirkland, Sidley, Gibson have waaay stronger non-NYC offices than Skadden but are obviously not part of the "V3." Where does Skadden have a strong non-NYC office? Their DC office isn't even close to the top of the market. Their Houston office is bottom of the barrel. Kirkland and Sidley rule Chicago. NYC is literally the only city where Skadden has an unusually strong office.

I was referring to the older NY-centric white shoe peers (which aren't Kirkland, Latham, Sidley or Gibson) that don't have significant non-NYC offices and so I think Skadden gets a bump up in that regard. And totally agree that Skadden's non-NYC offices aren't all top of the market—I'm just saying they're generally pretty good or near the top of the market (and I think, at least with regards to corporate work, it's def an exaggeration to say that Kirkland, Sidley and Gibson have waaay stronger non-NYC practices). Skadden DC, Chicago, LA, Palo Alto, London, etc. are all well regarded. All I'm saying is that that counts for a lot, since it's not just NY lawyers who vote on vault.

Kirkland almost single-handedly dominates one of the most profitable transactions markets in the country (Houston). Skadden Houston, in contrast, is outmatched by the likes of Shearman and White & Case. Kirkland and Sidley corporate are leagues ahead of Skadden Chicago. Just two examples.

Everyone knows the Vault rankings are skewed by overwhelming numbers of NYC corporate associates. There are after waaay more biglaw jobs in NY than in other markets. Skadden's ranking isn't materially changed by the fact that they have some mediocre offices outside of NY. There are other reasons for Skadden's inflated ranking, as other posters have pointed out.

I don't think most people would traditionally include Sidley within the V10 so not sure why you keep bringing them up. I'm a NY V5 corporate associate and agree that Vault is heavily NY-centric. But come on now, you can't discount the rest of the country like that lol. The V10 points spread is pretty tiny and you can't be serious to think that other markets don't have a material impact on the rankings.

Skadden is one of the few (if not the only) New York-based V10s with prominent non-NY offices which is why I think they tend to get a bump up relative to their peers. My point is that the V10 are dominated by NY-based firms and that's what differentiates Skadden from them. Agree that Latham/Kirkland have strong national presences as Skadden (and I would argue that Latham and Kirkland similarly get a boost in the vault rankings due to their national presences). Compared to those two, I think Skadden's just been in the limelight longer and has a stronger NY office, so it has a slight edge.

This just proves my point. Sidley has very strong non-NYC offices (stronger than Skadden's almost across the board), but are still are stuck in V20-land. Just goes to show that you are grossly overestimating the "boost" that Skadden gets from its non-NYC offices. As for Latham and Kirkland, they outpace Skadden on basically every metric outside of NYC. It's not even close. It's not that they "have strong national presences as Skadden," but that they have substantially better ones. If non-NYC offices carried as much weight in Vault as you suggest, Kirkland and Latham would be ranked higher.

[Anonymous User]

SLS is overrated. HLS has better medians.

LOL. When HLS grads are still salty that SLS broke the tie with HLS in USNews and HLS is #3.

[enibs]

True story. In 2000, fearful of losing talent to west coast firms at the height of the dot com bubble, Skadden raised base salary from $125K to $140K. Then the bubble burst and no one else matched. Skadden partners were pissed. For the next five years, Skadden paid year end bonuses that were $15K below market to offset their above market base salary until market base finally caught up. Skadden has never been a market leader since.

[Anonymous User]

SLS is overrated. HLS has better medians.

LOL. When HLS grads are still salty that SLS broke the tie with HLS in USNews and HLS is #3.

YSH to YSChi by 2030, HLS headed for TTT status

[Anonymous User]

SLS is overrated. HLS has better medians.

LOL. When HLS grads are still salty that SLS broke the tie with HLS in USNews and HLS is #3.

YSH to YSChi by 2030, HLS headed for TTT status

On a related note, can someone explain to me why UChi > Columbia is such a thing on TLS? Columbia has better medians, essentially the same outcomes, and Manhattan >>>> South Side of Chicago. Unless you're a FedSoc bro there's literally no reason to choose UChi.

[Anonymous User]

SLS is overrated. HLS has better medians.

LOL. When HLS grads are still salty that SLS broke the tie with HLS in USNews and HLS is #3.

YSH to YSChi by 2030, HLS headed for TTT status

On a related note, can someone explain to me why UChi > Columbia is such a thing on TLS? Columbia has better medians, essentially the same outcomes, and Manhattan >>>> South Side of Chicago. Unless you're a FedSoc bro there's literally no reason to choose UChi.

All T6 have "essentially the same outcomes" if by outcomes you mean that everyone can get biglaw. To the extent that yhs/ysh are better than CCN it's because of unicorn outcomes, clerkships, academia, etc etc. And in those metrics, Chicago well outperforms the NYC schools.

[Anonymous User]

SLS is overrated. HLS has better medians.

LOL. When HLS grads are still salty that SLS broke the tie with HLS in USNews and HLS is #3.

YSH to YSChi by 2030, HLS headed for TTT status

On a related note, can someone explain to me why UChi > Columbia is such a thing on TLS? Columbia has better medians, essentially the same outcomes, and Manhattan >>>> South Side of Chicago. Unless you're a FedSoc bro there's literally no reason to choose UChi.

Uchi has better clerkship placement and that's it (benefiting 10% of the students in the top). Besides Y (and to a lesser extent S), all T14 law schools are more or less the same in terms of both selectivity and outcomes, and prestige obsessed students just love to split hairs. 90% of them will just end up at generic biglaw and will never come close to being able to take advantage of whatever unique resources they claim their schools have. Mostly it's just my school can beat up your school rant

[Anonymous User]

SLS is overrated. HLS has better medians.

LOL. When HLS grads are still salty that SLS broke the tie with HLS in USNews and HLS is #3.

YSH to YSChi by 2030, HLS headed for TTT status

On a related note, can someone explain to me why UChi > Columbia is such a thing on TLS? Columbia has better medians, essentially the same outcomes, and Manhattan >>>> South Side of Chicago. Unless you're a FedSoc bro there's literally no reason to choose UChi.

@ the fedsoc comment.

Anyway, UChi > Columbia is not just "such a thing" on TLS. It's also the dominant view in academia and in the legal industry in general.

[Anonymous User]

SLS is overrated. HLS has better medians.

LOL. When HLS grads are still salty that SLS broke the tie with HLS in USNews and HLS is #3.

YSH to YSChi by 2030, HLS headed for TTT status

On a related note, can someone explain to me why UChi > Columbia is such a thing on TLS? Columbia has better medians, essentially the same outcomes, and Manhattan >>>> South Side of Chicago. Unless you're a FedSoc bro there's literally no reason to choose UChi.

@ the fedsoc comment.

Anyway, UChi > Columbia is not just "such a thing" on TLS. It's also the dominant view in academia and in the legal industry in general.

Can confirm, at my YHS we talk about the other two most often, then Chicago. Columbia and NYU simply aren't in the conversation as elite schools.

Edit: I think I've heard more discussion of UT-Austin than Columbia, tbh.

[Anonymous User]

SLS is overrated. HLS has better medians.

LOL. When HLS grads are still salty that SLS broke the tie with HLS in USNews and HLS is #3.

YSH to YSChi by 2030, HLS headed for TTT status

On a related note, can someone explain to me why UChi > Columbia is such a thing on TLS? Columbia has better medians, essentially the same outcomes, and Manhattan >>>> South Side of Chicago. Unless you're a FedSoc bro there's literally no reason to choose UChi.

@ the fedsoc comment.

Anyway, UChi > Columbia is not just "such a thing" on TLS. It's also the dominant view in academia and in the legal industry in general.

Can confirm, at my YHS we talk about the other two most often, then Chicago. Columbia and NYU simply aren't in the conversation as elite schools.

Edit: I think I've heard more discussion of UT-Austin than Columbia, tbh.

The only context H is brought up at the other two is H being the safety school for everyone

[Anonymous User]

Gentlemen! You can't fight here, this is the money/lobster thread!

[Anonymous User]

If you're at Y/H/S, you should be upset you didn't take take the Ruby/Hammy to go to Chi/CLS

[Anonymous User]

SLS is overrated. HLS has better medians.

LOL. When HLS grads are still salty that SLS broke the tie with HLS in USNews and HLS is #3.

YSH to YSChi by 2030, HLS headed for TTT status

On a related note, can someone explain to me why UChi > Columbia is such a thing on TLS? Columbia has better medians, essentially the same outcomes, and Manhattan >>>> South Side of Chicago. Unless you're a FedSoc bro there's literally no reason to choose UChi.

All T6 have "essentially the same outcomes" if by outcomes you mean that everyone can get biglaw. To the extent that yhs/ysh are better than CCN it's because of unicorn outcomes, clerkships, academia, etc etc. And in those metrics, Chicago well outperforms the NYC schools.

Well, being an international student who has friends at all t14 law schools, I know international JDs striking out at H and below every year, but it almost never happens at the top two. Even in terms of biglaw placement strength, there is a demonstrable difference among the t6.

[Anonymous User]

If you're at Y/H/S, you should be upset you didn't take take the Ruby/Hammy to go to Chi/CLS

But Ruby/Hamilton was not an option to most students at these schools. An average HLS student has a 173/3.9 vs an average CLS student at 172/3.8. The average HLS is sure as hell not getting hamilton at CLS with those stats.

[Anonymous User]

SLS is overrated. HLS has better medians.

Implying medians matter compared to exits. Granted, S probably equals (or is only slightly better than) H in this regard. But LMFAO at the idea that medians make a school.

Yeah HLS has more liberal arts majors with 4.0s who guessed one more question right on a standardized test. SFW? H's outcomes also suck. It's just a slightly better georgetown with a cooler name. Lumping it together with YS makes no sense.

Counterpoint: HLS has more lay prestige by a lot, which might actually have value since every other TikTok lawyer I see now is "Harvard Law Couple" or "Harvard Law alum talks about X" or "Law Tips from a Harvard Lawyer" or the like.

[Anonymous User]

Can we get back to talking about what really matters? McDermott actually living up to its position as #1 firm for compensation according to Vault

[Anonymous User]

SLS is overrated. HLS has better medians.

Implying medians matter compared to exits. Granted, S probably equals (or is only slightly better than) H in this regard. But LMFAO at the idea that medians make a school.

Yeah HLS has more liberal arts majors with 4.0s who guessed one more question right on a standardized test. SFW? H's outcomes also suck. It's just a slightly better georgetown with a cooler name. Lumping it together with YS makes no sense.

Counterpoint: HLS has more lay prestige by a lot, which might actually have value since every other TikTok lawyer I see now is "Harvard Law Couple" or "Harvard Law alum talks about X" or "Law Tips from a Harvard Lawyer" or the like.

YS students pay high premiums for no 1L grade pressure and diverse career outcomes. H students pay to impress teenagers on TikTok

[Anonymous User]

SLS is overrated. HLS has better medians.

LOL. When HLS grads are still salty that SLS broke the tie with HLS in USNews and HLS is #3.

YSH to YSChi by 2030, HLS headed for TTT status

On a related note, can someone explain to me why UChi > Columbia is such a thing on TLS? Columbia has better medians, essentially the same outcomes, and Manhattan >>>> South Side of Chicago. Unless you're a FedSoc bro there's literally no reason to choose UChi.

Uchi has better clerkship placement and that's it (benefiting 10% of the students in the top). Besides Y (and to a lesser extent S), all T14 law schools are more or less the same in terms of both selectivity and outcomes, and prestige obsessed students just love to split hairs. 90% of them will just end up at generic biglaw and will never come close to being able to take advantage of whatever unique resources they claim their schools have. Mostly it's just my school can beat up your school rant

As someone who went to a lower T13, disagree that they're all the same. There's a pretty big difference between a 60-70% chance and an 80+% chance. Tons of kids struck out in OCI and either got jobs after from mass mailing or when the economy picked up. We had stats showing under half got their jobs from OCI. Plus there's a pretty big difference between getting skadden and seyfarth.

[Anonymous User]

True story. In 2000, fearful of losing talent to west coast firms at the height of the dot com bubble, Skadden raised base salary from $125K to $140K. Then the bubble burst and no one else matched. Skadden partners were pissed. For the next five years, Skadden paid year end bonuses that were $15K below market to offset their above market base salary until market base finally caught up. Skadden has never been a market leader since.

Is this flame? Any sources?

[Anonymous User]

SLS is overrated. HLS has better medians.

Implying medians matter compared to exits. Granted, S probably equals (or is only slightly better than) H in this regard. But LMFAO at the idea that medians make a school.

Yeah HLS has more liberal arts majors with 4.0s who guessed one more question right on a standardized test. SFW? H's outcomes also suck. It's just a slightly better georgetown with a cooler name. Lumping it together with YS makes no sense.

Counterpoint: HLS has more lay prestige by a lot, which might actually have value since every other TikTok lawyer I see now is "Harvard Law Couple" or "Harvard Law alum talks about X" or "Law Tips from a Harvard Lawyer" or the like.

Harvard has more lay prestige than Yale does. That doesn't make it better.

[Anonymous User]

New theory behind the bizarre DPW/V10 delay: they’ve been waiting until Tuesday, 2/22/22 (tomorrow) to raise the scale to $222,222.