NYC to 200k Forum

[Anonymous User]

lol, flame

[Anonymous User]

What's taking so long for more announcements/matches?

[Anonymous User]

Rising 2L from HYS here: from talking to a bunch of other rising 2Ls after a firm reception in NY earlier this week, the non-matching firms are slowly but surely lowering themselves in the eyes of biglaw-aspiring students creating their bidlists.

FYI, V5!

I'd roll my eyes at you but I'm laughing too hard.

Why? I work at Cleary and there’s genuine concern here that the new Vault rankings are hurtful to the firm’s ability to attract the best talent from the most elite law schools. This year, we have an unusual amount of kids from unprestigious schools (MVPB on down) that the partner and clients find revolting. Cleary better match ASAP.

And oh ya, I’m a Yale and Columbia grad.

I would think Cleary working their associates into a coma would be worse for recruitment tbh

[Anonymous User]

What's taking so long for more announcements/matches?

Some people think it's because there's a chance DPW or another firm upends the market by going to 200k. The more firms like PW that match though, the less likely that becomes.

Also, it can depend on when firms have weekly partner meetings. E.g. Cravath on Monday; DPW on Thursday.

[Anonymous User]

most likely law firm management is disorganized and slow and has no real incentive to be quick about this (despite what other people on the thread have been saying)

[Anonymous User]

I don't understand how Jones Day has managed to stay relevant with its black box compensation model. Sure they should be able to recruit some first-years who didn't do enough research and saw that they pay market, but how on earth are there any mid-level or senior associates still working at that firm? I also assume that they not many laterals come into the firm aside from those finishing up clerkships because I've heard they get a pretty sweet deal actually

[Anonymous User]

I don't understand how Jones Day has managed to stay relevant with its black box compensation model. Sure they should be able to recruit some first-years who didn't do enough research and saw that they pay market, but how on earth are there any mid-level or senior associates still working at that firm? I also assume that they not many laterals come into the firm aside from those finishing up clerkships because I've heard they get a pretty sweet deal actually

Presumably because those mid-level or senior associates know what the standard salary scale is, so even though their compensation is black box they know if they're being compensated equally or better than the market.

[Anonymous User]

I don't understand how Jones Day has managed to stay relevant with its black box compensation model. Sure they should be able to recruit some first-years who didn't do enough research and saw that they pay market, but how on earth are there any mid-level or senior associates still working at that firm? I also assume that they not many laterals come into the firm aside from those finishing up clerkships because I've heard they get a pretty sweet deal actually

Presumably because those mid-level or senior associates know what the standard salary scale is, so even though their compensation is black box they know if they're being compensated equally or better than the market.

Right, but I think OP was noting all the evidence that Jones Day black box is consistently under-market (ATL has covered this extensively).

[Anonymous User]

I don't understand how Jones Day has managed to stay relevant with its black box compensation model. Sure they should be able to recruit some first-years who didn't do enough research and saw that they pay market, but how on earth are there any mid-level or senior associates still working at that firm? I also assume that they not many laterals come into the firm aside from those finishing up clerkships because I've heard they get a pretty sweet deal actually

Presumably because those mid-level or senior associates know what the standard salary scale is, so even though their compensation is black box they know if they're being compensated equally or better than the market.

this only makes sense if all of their mid levels are being paid at or above market, which obviously they are not

[Anonymous User]

did proskauer actually not match for their NOLA and boca raton office (who knew they even had them). Seems to be what the ATL scorecard is indicating.

[Anonymous User]

I don't understand how Jones Day has managed to stay relevant with its black box compensation model. Sure they should be able to recruit some first-years who didn't do enough research and saw that they pay market, but how on earth are there any mid-level or senior associates still working at that firm? I also assume that they not many laterals come into the firm aside from those finishing up clerkships because I've heard they get a pretty sweet deal actually

Presumably because those mid-level or senior associates know what the standard salary scale is, so even though their compensation is black box they know if they're being compensated equally or better than the market.

this only makes sense if all of their mid levels are being paid at or above market, which obviously they are not

JD associate here. One thing to keep in mind is that JD is in a lot of smaller markets where it pays the highest in those cities (I fall into that camp). As to why someone would pick JD over any market-paying firm in say, NYC, I have no idea. I certainly would not have.

Also, up until ATL exposed JD in 2016 there wasn't a broad consensus on how likely it was to make market/above market. The recruiting pitch has always been no bonuses but market rate is folded into your annual salary. Which ATL exposed as a complete fabrication but prior to that people didn't really know

[gaddockteeg]

I don't understand how Jones Day has managed to stay relevant with its black box compensation model. Sure they should be able to recruit some first-years who didn't do enough research and saw that they pay market, but how on earth are there any mid-level or senior associates still working at that firm? I also assume that they not many laterals come into the firm aside from those finishing up clerkships because I've heard they get a pretty sweet deal actually

Presumably because those mid-level or senior associates know what the standard salary scale is, so even though their compensation is black box they know if they're being compensated equally or better than the market.

this only makes sense if all of their mid levels are being paid at or above market, which obviously they are not

There's a few reasons I see:

Raises at JD come in June, not January like other firms. So you actually move up in class year about 6 months before everyone else. This makes it harder to compare yourself with the market.

Some midlevels/seniors are paid hugeee salaries. The JD associate who joined the Trump administration last year disclosed an 800k salary from JD.

Some people, like myself, prefer salary over bonus and are willing to take less total comp for predictability. THere's less games to play, you odn't have to work about leaving money on the table. I don't work at JD but I lateraled last year to big fed from a peer firm and it was huge headache trying to line up my exit to make sure I got my year end bonus. After going thorugh that, I can really appreciate just getting paid straight salary.

[Anonymous User]

I don't understand how Jones Day has managed to stay relevant with its black box compensation model. Sure they should be able to recruit some first-years who didn't do enough research and saw that they pay market, but how on earth are there any mid-level or senior associates still working at that firm? I also assume that they not many laterals come into the firm aside from those finishing up clerkships because I've heard they get a pretty sweet deal actually

Presumably because those mid-level or senior associates know what the standard salary scale is, so even though their compensation is black box they know if they're being compensated equally or better than the market.

this only makes sense if all of their mid levels are being paid at or above market, which obviously they are not

JD associate here. One thing to keep in mind is that JD is in a lot of smaller markets where it pays the highest in those cities (I fall into that camp). As to why someone would pick JD over any market-paying firm in say, NYC, I have no idea. I certainly would not have.

Also, up until ATL exposed JD in 2016 there wasn't a broad consensus on how likely it was to make market/above market. The recruiting pitch has always been no bonuses but market rate is folded into your annual salary. Which ATL exposed as a complete fabrication but prior to that people didn't really know

ok that does make sense

[Anonymous User]

I don't understand how Jones Day has managed to stay relevant with its black box compensation model. Sure they should be able to recruit some first-years who didn't do enough research and saw that they pay market, but how on earth are there any mid-level or senior associates still working at that firm? I also assume that they not many laterals come into the firm aside from those finishing up clerkships because I've heard they get a pretty sweet deal actually

Presumably because those mid-level or senior associates know what the standard salary scale is, so even though their compensation is black box they know if they're being compensated equally or better than the market.

But for the most part they're not. Isn't it a little fishy that Jones Day has a policy whereby discussing your compensation with others at the firm is grounds for termination? Jones Day wants to pay their associates, on average, lower than market and is somehow getting away with it. They've implemented a regime where they try to hoodwink their associates by making it seem like they pay a substantial number of people above market and then strong arm their associates into not being able to get a better understanding of comp. A lot of people (especially women and minorities) get fucked over by this complete lack of transparency. Thank god Jones Day's antiquated, draconian compensation model hasn't been picked up by other law firms.

[Anonymous User]

I don't understand how Jones Day has managed to stay relevant with its black box compensation model. Sure they should be able to recruit some first-years who didn't do enough research and saw that they pay market, but how on earth are there any mid-level or senior associates still working at that firm? I also assume that they not many laterals come into the firm aside from those finishing up clerkships because I've heard they get a pretty sweet deal actually

Presumably because those mid-level or senior associates know what the standard salary scale is, so even though their compensation is black box they know if they're being compensated equally or better than the market.

this only makes sense if all of their mid levels are being paid at or above market, which obviously they are not

JD associate here. One thing to keep in mind is that JD is in a lot of smaller markets where it pays the highest in those cities (I fall into that camp). As to why someone would pick JD over any market-paying firm in say, NYC, I have no idea. I certainly would not have.

Also, up until ATL exposed JD in 2016 there wasn't a broad consensus on how likely it was to make market/above market. The recruiting pitch has always been no bonuses but market rate is folded into your annual salary. Which ATL exposed as a complete fabrication but prior to that people didn't really know

I would have a hard time ever working for JD, even if its top of market in a particular city, because of what a bunch of deceiving bastards run the firm. They've lied for years and years about their comp model and people are finally just starting to catch on. Really shows you what they think of their associates.

[Anonymous User]

why would it affect women and minorities more? not flame, i just have no idea how you make that connection

[Anonymous User]

I don't understand how Jones Day has managed to stay relevant with its black box compensation model. Sure they should be able to recruit some first-years who didn't do enough research and saw that they pay market, but how on earth are there any mid-level or senior associates still working at that firm? I also assume that they not many laterals come into the firm aside from those finishing up clerkships because I've heard they get a pretty sweet deal actually

Presumably because those mid-level or senior associates know what the standard salary scale is, so even though their compensation is black box they know if they're being compensated equally or better than the market.

But for the most part they're not. Isn't it a little fishy that Jones Day has a policy whereby discussing your compensation with others at the firm is grounds for termination? Jones Day wants to pay their associates, on average, lower than market and is somehow getting away with it. They've implemented a regime where they try to hoodwink their associates by making it seem like they pay a substantial number of people above market and then strong arm their associates into not being able to get a better understanding of comp. A lot of people (especially women and minorities) get fucked over by this complete lack of transparency. Thank god Jones Day's antiquated, draconian compensation model hasn't been picked up by other law firms.

I think that at Jones Day, it works like this:
1-2% get paid above market
8-9% get paid market
50% get paid 10-15% below market
40% are getting paid substantially below market

The deviations from market are allegedly for hours and performance, but that seems excessively harsh given how many people must be getting paid below market.

The problem with the ATL submissions is that they didn't identify which offices people are getting paid below market in. There were some people from Chicago who sent in information about below-market compensation, which is egregious. But it's not clear to me that they are able to get away with it in New York or any of the California offices, where compensation pressures may be more acute. I would love to know more about this from JD NYC associates. Why aren't all of you lateraling constantly? Why would anyone accept a lateral offer there?

[Anonymous User]

why would it affect women and minorities more? not flame, i just have no idea how you make that connection

soft factors almost always work against these groups in the American workplace, biglaw included

[Anonymous User]

why would it affect women and minorities more? not flame, i just have no idea how you make that connection

They can pay white men more--on average--under the shroud of individualized compensation. That isn't to say there are not outliers because there certainly are. And I'm also not saying it's intentional discrimination, but when you have, for the most part, a lot of old white men making salary decisions, other white men tend to benefit. Firm management would rather die than be forced to release comprehensive numbers comparing average salaries between gender, race, ethnicity, etc.

[Anonymous User]

I don't understand how Jones Day has managed to stay relevant with its black box compensation model. Sure they should be able to recruit some first-years who didn't do enough research and saw that they pay market, but how on earth are there any mid-level or senior associates still working at that firm? I also assume that they not many laterals come into the firm aside from those finishing up clerkships because I've heard they get a pretty sweet deal actually

Presumably because those mid-level or senior associates know what the standard salary scale is, so even though their compensation is black box they know if they're being compensated equally or better than the market.

But for the most part they're not. Isn't it a little fishy that Jones Day has a policy whereby discussing your compensation with others at the firm is grounds for termination? Jones Day wants to pay their associates, on average, lower than market and is somehow getting away with it. They've implemented a regime where they try to hoodwink their associates by making it seem like they pay a substantial number of people above market and then strong arm their associates into not being able to get a better understanding of comp. A lot of people (especially women and minorities) get fucked over by this complete lack of transparency. Thank god Jones Day's antiquated, draconian compensation model hasn't been picked up by other law firms.

I think that at Jones Day, it works like this:
1-2% get paid above market
8-9% get paid market
50% get paid 10-15% below market
40% are getting paid substantially below market

The deviations from market are allegedly for hours and performance, but that seems excessively harsh given how many people must be getting paid below market.

The problem with the ATL submissions is that they didn't identify which offices people are getting paid below market in. There were some people from Chicago who sent in information about below-market compensation, which is egregious. But it's not clear to me that they are able to get away with it in New York or any of the California offices, where compensation pressures may be more acute. I would love to know more about this from JD NYC associates. Why aren't all of you lateraling constantly? Why would anyone accept a lateral offer there?

I mean you can't make up these percentages based on ATL's sample size. I get your point but it's silly to speculate to this degree

[Anonymous User]

I don't understand how Jones Day has managed to stay relevant with its black box compensation model. Sure they should be able to recruit some first-years who didn't do enough research and saw that they pay market, but how on earth are there any mid-level or senior associates still working at that firm? I also assume that they not many laterals come into the firm aside from those finishing up clerkships because I've heard they get a pretty sweet deal actually

Presumably because those mid-level or senior associates know what the standard salary scale is, so even though their compensation is black box they know if they're being compensated equally or better than the market.

this only makes sense if all of their mid levels are being paid at or above market, which obviously they are not

JD associate here. One thing to keep in mind is that JD is in a lot of smaller markets where it pays the highest in those cities (I fall into that camp). As to why someone would pick JD over any market-paying firm in say, NYC, I have no idea. I certainly would not have.

Also, up until ATL exposed JD in 2016 there wasn't a broad consensus on how likely it was to make market/above market. The recruiting pitch has always been no bonuses but market rate is folded into your annual salary. Which ATL exposed as a complete fabrication but prior to that people didn't really know

Damn Texans

[Anonymous User]

I don't understand how Jones Day has managed to stay relevant with its black box compensation model. Sure they should be able to recruit some first-years who didn't do enough research and saw that they pay market, but how on earth are there any mid-level or senior associates still working at that firm? I also assume that they not many laterals come into the firm aside from those finishing up clerkships because I've heard they get a pretty sweet deal actually

Presumably because those mid-level or senior associates know what the standard salary scale is, so even though their compensation is black box they know if they're being compensated equally or better than the market.

this only makes sense if all of their mid levels are being paid at or above market, which obviously they are not

JD associate here. One thing to keep in mind is that JD is in a lot of smaller markets where it pays the highest in those cities (I fall into that camp). As to why someone would pick JD over any market-paying firm in say, NYC, I have no idea. I certainly would not have.

Also, up until ATL exposed JD in 2016 there wasn't a broad consensus on how likely it was to make market/above market. The recruiting pitch has always been no bonuses but market rate is folded into your annual salary. Which ATL exposed as a complete fabrication but prior to that people didn't really know

Damn Texans

Truth. Although, despite JD's shenanigans, it is annoying when I talk to TX associates that get paid more than NY top market. Not to mention the tax haul.

[Anonymous User]

.

[Anonymous User]

I don't understand how Jones Day has managed to stay relevant with its black box compensation model. Sure they should be able to recruit some first-years who didn't do enough research and saw that they pay market, but how on earth are there any mid-level or senior associates still working at that firm? I also assume that they not many laterals come into the firm aside from those finishing up clerkships because I've heard they get a pretty sweet deal actually

Presumably because those mid-level or senior associates know what the standard salary scale is, so even though their compensation is black box they know if they're being compensated equally or better than the market.

But for the most part they're not. Isn't it a little fishy that Jones Day has a policy whereby discussing your compensation with others at the firm is grounds for termination? Jones Day wants to pay their associates, on average, lower than market and is somehow getting away with it. They've implemented a regime where they try to hoodwink their associates by making it seem like they pay a substantial number of people above market and then strong arm their associates into not being able to get a better understanding of comp. A lot of people (especially women and minorities) get fucked over by this complete lack of transparency. Thank god Jones Day's antiquated, draconian compensation model hasn't been picked up by other law firms.

Is this a real policy or just a thing that non-JD people say about JD? I can't imagine it's a real, written policy at a law firm where surely someone has heard of the NLRA and the phrase "concerted activities."

[Anonymous User]

I don't understand how Jones Day has managed to stay relevant with its black box compensation model. Sure they should be able to recruit some first-years who didn't do enough research and saw that they pay market, but how on earth are there any mid-level or senior associates still working at that firm? I also assume that they not many laterals come into the firm aside from those finishing up clerkships because I've heard they get a pretty sweet deal actually

Presumably because those mid-level or senior associates know what the standard salary scale is, so even though their compensation is black box they know if they're being compensated equally or better than the market.

But for the most part they're not. Isn't it a little fishy that Jones Day has a policy whereby discussing your compensation with others at the firm is grounds for termination? Jones Day wants to pay their associates, on average, lower than market and is somehow getting away with it. They've implemented a regime where they try to hoodwink their associates by making it seem like they pay a substantial number of people above market and then strong arm their associates into not being able to get a better understanding of comp. A lot of people (especially women and minorities) get fucked over by this complete lack of transparency. Thank god Jones Day's antiquated, draconian compensation model hasn't been picked up by other law firms.

Is this a real policy or just a thing that non-JD people say about JD? I can't imagine it's a real, written policy at a law firm where surely someone has heard of the NLRA and the phrase "concerted activities."

It’s a real policy, sadly enough.