Milbank/Davis Polk/Cravath Scale: NYC to 215-415k Forum

[bigboybob]

Will Milbank raise next year too?? Going to buy some options on lobster prices.

[Anonymous User]

Will Milbank raise next year too?? Going to buy some options on lobster prices.

I think so.

[Anonymous User]

Isn’t it getting more obvious that tech bros (CA) have more money to blow than finance bros (NY)?

Conjecture from going to berkeley and working in northern california, but i think california associates are, for whatever reason, a lot less willing to take abuse than new york associates. definitely seems like i know more associates here that are willing to throw the towel in and take a 125k lifestyle job

It's not that west coast associates are "less willing to take abuse" lol. It's just the west coast vibe. The people that want to work in the west coast, self-select into it. The chill factor flows from top down. The partners in west coast offices of even the most notoriously aggressive firms are pretty laid back. The market also demands different and sometimes less than a city like NY where work is constant. This is changing for the valley a bit but the other points stand.

This all flows from the fact that living in NYC is in itself a form of self-abuse, whereas many people go to CA with the hope of an easier lifestyle.

[Anonymous User]

I could have sworn I saw an analysis like 10 pages ago from someone who predicted basically this exact series of matches. They figured this would put the pressure on Kirkland to eventually match, which would finally force V5 movement.

Ok guys. Focus. Back to making predictions based on arbitrary criteria on when DPW will finally say something. My vote is 4:35 PM tomorrow.

There's gotta be someone familiar enough with the legal market to game out how this could trickle up from Cooley to DPW. As in, Cooley is a peer of A in X market, so A will need to match. Then A is a peer of B in Y market, so B will match. Then B is a peer of [insert V5], so that V5 will need to match, which will finally put gears in motion for the rest of us.

Kirkland is always one of your best bets, because they refuse to let anyone pay more except boutiques/Wachtell, are hyper-aggressive in recruiting, and have offices in 10 domestic markets. Also, all Kirkland offices are paid the same so pressure to match in one market would mean matches everywhere, which in turn would swing basically the whole legal market.

Goodwin, WilmerHale, and Choate are competitors to Kirkland in Boston, and kinda Cooley too. Norton Rose isn’t really a peer to them in Texas, but they’re respectable and are peers with enough other Texas firms that would need to match, which would make Kirkland match. Cooley is a Kirkland competitor in SF and LA. WilmerHale is a competitor in DC.

There’s probably another connections but that’s off the top of my head. I don’t see any scenario where Kirkland doesn’t match, which means there’s no scenario with the rest of the V10 doesn’t match.

[Anonymous User]

Isn’t it getting more obvious that tech bros (CA) have more money to blow than finance bros (NY)?

Conjecture from going to berkeley and working in northern california, but i think california associates are, for whatever reason, a lot less willing to take abuse than new york associates. definitely seems like i know more associates here that are willing to throw the towel in and take a 125k lifestyle job

It's not that west coast associates are "less willing to take abuse" lol. It's just the west coast vibe. The people that want to work in the west coast, self-select into it. The chill factor flows from top down. The partners in west coast offices of even the most notoriously aggressive firms are pretty laid back. The market also demands different and sometimes less than a city like NY where work is constant. This is changing for the valley a bit but the other points stand.

This all flows from the fact that living in NYC is in itself a form of self-abuse...

What about the opera? How else will one enjoy the opera?

[Anonymous User]

Isn’t it getting more obvious that tech bros (CA) have more money to blow than finance bros (NY)?

Conjecture from going to berkeley and working in northern california, but i think california associates are, for whatever reason, a lot less willing to take abuse than new york associates. definitely seems like i know more associates here that are willing to throw the towel in and take a 125k lifestyle job

It's not that west coast associates are "less willing to take abuse" lol. It's just the west coast vibe. The people that want to work in the west coast, self-select into it. The chill factor flows from top down. The partners in west coast offices of even the most notoriously aggressive firms are pretty laid back. The market also demands different and sometimes less than a city like NY where work is constant. This is changing for the valley a bit but the other points stand.

This all flows from the fact that living in NYC is in itself a form of self-abuse...

What about the opera? How else will one enjoy the opera?

Opera, one of the finest forms of self-abuse there is -- and to be clear I live in and love this city but I think it's undeniably a form of self-harm dressed up as conditioning. There are undoubtedly exceptions, but as a rule I would expect that people in every industry from the CEOs on down are much more willing to accept abuse here than in CA, purely by virtue of their having already agreed to be a sub in a city-scale BDSM experience

[Anonymous User]

Isn’t it getting more obvious that tech bros (CA) have more money to blow than finance bros (NY)?

Conjecture from going to berkeley and working in northern california, but i think california associates are, for whatever reason, a lot less willing to take abuse than new york associates. definitely seems like i know more associates here that are willing to throw the towel in and take a 125k lifestyle job

It's not that west coast associates are "less willing to take abuse" lol. It's just the west coast vibe. The people that want to work in the west coast, self-select into it. The chill factor flows from top down. The partners in west coast offices of even the most notoriously aggressive firms are pretty laid back. The market also demands different and sometimes less than a city like NY where work is constant. This is changing for the valley a bit but the other points stand.

This all flows from the fact that living in NYC is in itself a form of self-abuse...

What about the opera? How else will one enjoy the opera?

Opera, one of the finest forms of self-abuse there is -- and to be clear I live in and love this city but I think it's undeniably a form of self-harm dressed up as conditioning. There are undoubtedly exceptions, but as a rule I would expect that people in every industry from the CEOs on down are much more willing to accept abuse here than in CA, purely by virtue of their having already agreed to be a sub in a city-scale BDSM experience

Fwiw the biglaw yuppie comparators in SF are engineers working three hours a week while New York’s yuppie comparators are similarly abused finance types

[Anonymous User]

WSGR just matched. Milbank. Though WSGR being cheap AF, only matched to their beginning fiscal year of Feb. 1. Lame AF.

That's bizarre. Are normal class year bumps only effective Feb. 1 too?

I don't see what benefit WSGR derives from skimping on one month's pay. It's bad enough that they are literally the last in their cohort to match. But the fact that they did it almost immediately after Fenwick. But they can't even match back to Jan 1? Lmao.

Cheap af. Wsgr deserves some of the flack they've been getting. What kind of calculation points to skimping on one month being a good idea.

Orrick still hasn’t matched.

Nor Mofo.

[Anonymous User]

I went out to a lovely dinner with my wife tonight and instead of ordering the lobster like a Millionsbanker or CHADwalader-er I had to order the lamb like a goddamn peasant. Fuck you Neil.

[Anonymous User]

I could have sworn I saw an analysis like 10 pages ago from someone who predicted basically this exact series of matches. They figured this would put the pressure on Kirkland to eventually match, which would finally force V5 movement.

Ok guys. Focus. Back to making predictions based on arbitrary criteria on when DPW will finally say something. My vote is 4:35 PM tomorrow.

There's gotta be someone familiar enough with the legal market to game out how this could trickle up from Cooley to DPW. As in, Cooley is a peer of A in X market, so A will need to match. Then A is a peer of B in Y market, so B will match. Then B is a peer of [insert V5], so that V5 will need to match, which will finally put gears in motion for the rest of us.

Kirkland is always one of your best bets, because they refuse to let anyone pay more except boutiques/Wachtell, are hyper-aggressive in recruiting, and have offices in 10 domestic markets. Also, all Kirkland offices are paid the same so pressure to match in one market would mean matches everywhere, which in turn would swing basically the whole legal market.

Goodwin, WilmerHale, and Choate are competitors to Kirkland in Boston, and kinda Cooley too. Norton Rose isn’t really a peer to them in Texas, but they’re respectable and are peers with enough other Texas firms that would need to match, which would make Kirkland match. Cooley is a Kirkland competitor in SF and LA. WilmerHale is a competitor in DC.

There’s probably another connections but that’s off the top of my head. I don’t see any scenario where Kirkland doesn’t match, which means there’s no scenario with the rest of the V10 doesn’t match.

Insightful analysis. Doesn’t this just cement Milbank’s reputation as a competitor (threat) to all v100 firms for associate talent across different markets? As in, “if you don’t pay your associates well enough like we do, your associates will lateral over to us.” Hide yo wife; hide your kids; Milbank is coming for them.

[Anonymous User]

Can we get back on topic.

DPW should match Brewski

What are the chances v10 matches 235K as base comp? Slim but...

Because Brewer is a trash firm that tops out at a much lower rate than other biglaw firms. I know a senior associate there who was getting $250k before this change. They start higher and then stay there. Also Brewer does not pay bonuses. Nothing. Last year was a mini cocktail set. One year it was a Starbucks gift card.

[Anonymous User]

Over/Under is page 100 in this thread before the first V10 match/raise

Over is starting to look pretty good

[Anonymous User]

The delay on these raises in many ways serves the same end as the deferred fall bonus announced last spring—stringing associates who were on the way out along for retention with a modest carrot.

Wonder how long they can keep this up.

[Anonymous User]

The delay on these raises in many ways serves the same end as the deferred fall bonus announced last spring—stringing associates who were on the way out along for retention with a modest carrot.

Wonder how long they can keep this up.

Extremely modest. The difference in annual salary by class year are only $10k for years 1-4 and $20k for more senior associates. Even assuming they somehow drag this out through March before matching and making whole, that's a one time "windfall" of just $2.5k or $5k. On the margin, that's less than $1.5k or $3k take-home. (And I would bet a large sum on the V50 or so matching before the end of March anyway.)

If anybody grossing $3-400k in income is holding off on a career move for an extra $3,000, they aren't very smart. This would be the most pathetic "retention bonus" of all time.

[MarcusH]

The delay on these raises in many ways serves the same end as the deferred fall bonus announced last spring—stringing associates who were on the way out along for retention with a modest carrot.

Wonder how long they can keep this up.

Extremely modest. The difference in annual salary by class year are only $10k for years 1-4 and $20k for more senior associates. Even assuming they somehow drag this out through March before matching and making whole, that's a one time "windfall" of just $2.5k or $5k. On the margin, that's less than $1.5k or $3k take-home. (And I would bet a large sum on the V50 or so matching before the end of March anyway.)

If anybody grossing $3-400k in income is holding off on a career move for an extra $3,000, they aren't very smart. This would be the most pathetic "retention bonus" of all time.

No, it wouldn't keep me from leaving a non-"Milbank" firm, but it would give me pause to hop from a "Milbank" scale to a lower scale firm. It eats into my signing bonus and also just "why", why would you not just match if you're anticipating matching the higher scale anyways, are your payroll and HR systems that outdated that you can't handle making two or more changes at this point, it shouldn't be that hard should it? Seems like a lot of people are banking on a cool down too and to try to stem the raises, but it's as busy and attrition-filled as ever where I am.

[Anonymous User]

Someone told me yesterday that they had some inside information that DPW is planning to re-raise significantly but don’t expect it to happen until closer to the summer. Obviously I’m not going to immediately believe that but if it is as significant as a raise as they described I would probably ultimately be happy even though it’s not convenient.

[Anonymous User]

Someone told me yesterday that they had some inside information that DPW is planning to re-raise significantly but don’t expect it to happen until closer to the summer. Obviously I’m not going to immediately believe that but if it is as significant as a raise as they described I would probably ultimately be happy even though it’s not convenient.

Can't believe I'm engaging this. But assuming this actually happened how significant is this raise that they described?

[Anonymous User]

Someone told me yesterday that they had some inside information that DPW is planning to re-raise significantly but don’t expect it to happen until closer to the summer. Obviously I’m not going to immediately believe that but if it is as significant as a raise as they described I would probably ultimately be happy even though it’s not convenient.

If this is a troll, I swear to god...

[MarcusH]

Someone told me yesterday that they had some inside information that DPW is planning to re-raise significantly but don’t expect it to happen until closer to the summer. Obviously I’m not going to immediately believe that but if it is as significant as a raise as they described I would probably ultimately be happy even though it’s not convenient.

If you take any stock in that, boy have I got a partnership opportunity to sell you on. Just bill 2800 hours a year for a few more years and it will happen. Can't put it in writing but trust me... seriously, just raise or match and raise later if you're not ready to raise now. None of this gives me confidence in any below market paying firm.

[Anonymous User]

Isn’t it getting more obvious that tech bros (CA) have more money to blow than finance bros (NY)?

Tech firms also have to compete with FAANG and growth startups. Lol at the exit opps available to V10ers in NY - compliance at a bank?

Do tech firms have better exit opps than NY V10s? If yes, why don’t more people go for tech firms? Is it they think they’ll make partner at their V10, despite the odds? Or does compliance at banks pay more than in-house at tech?

[Anonymous User]

Someone told me yesterday that they had some inside information that DPW is planning to re-raise significantly but don’t expect it to happen until closer to the summer. Obviously I’m not going to immediately believe that but if it is as significant as a raise as they described I would probably ultimately be happy even though it’s not convenient.

Bullshit. If DPW was going to do this there is absolutely no reason not to do it by now. They'll have to true up anyways.

[Anonymous User]

Someone told me yesterday that they had some inside information that DPW is planning to re-raise significantly but don’t expect it to happen until closer to the summer. Obviously I’m not going to immediately believe that but if it is as significant as a raise as they described I would probably ultimately be happy even though it’s not convenient.

You know how in missing persons investigations, trolls will call the family members of the missing with false claims of having seen the missing person in a gas station to give the family false hope that their loved one is still alive?

[Anonymous User]

Isn’t it getting more obvious that tech bros (CA) have more money to blow than finance bros (NY)?

Tech firms also have to compete with FAANG and growth startups. Lol at the exit opps available to V10ers in NY - compliance at a bank?

Do tech firms have better exit opps than NY V10s? If yes, why don’t more people go for tech firms? Is it they think they’ll make partner at their V10, despite the odds? Or does compliance at banks pay more than in-house at tech?

Uh maybe because NYC corporate is the least competitive pathway for the mediocre law student? Hordes of law students go to NYC biglaw and then retroactively insist that it's the most prestigious thing in the profession. These hordes of associates outnumber other associates when they vote for Vault. And you end up with Vault rankings that are meaningless beyond NYC corporate.

[Anonymous User]

Someone told me yesterday that they had some inside information that DPW is planning to re-raise significantly but don’t expect it to happen until closer to the summer. Obviously I’m not going to immediately believe that but if it is as significant as a raise as they described I would probably ultimately be happy even though it’s not convenient.

Bullshit. If DPW was going to do this there is absolutely no reason not to do it by now. They'll have to true up anyways.

I wrote a brilliant analysis upthread about why they wouldn't do it now (and didn't even mention the potential market crash in the works). I'm glad other people who exist outside of this forum agree with my analysis (or at least are willing to troll on my behalf). Pasted below for your edification

Alright look I got an A- in law firm finance seminar at YHSCCN so I can tell you exactly what's happening. (lol)

(but seriously) Think like a managing partner for a second. If v10 matches now, then v10 will be expected to pay increased salary all year and at least one mid year special bonus. If they all collectively agree to ignore this, DPW can SHATTER the millybank scale effective April 1 or July 1, with a 3 or 6 month true up disguised as a pretty fat "special bonus" (like 2018 or whatever year that happened). And the market will follow. Final result: DPW maintains its spot as top comp dog and they nip the firehose of *actual* special bonuses. Remember, firms DO NOT want to pay us these bonuses for the rest of forever. The gravy train has to end eventually.

The one big risk is whether all firms play ball (kind of a millionaire prisoner's dilemma). A cascading match would force DPW to abandon this plan and match/raise early. Debatably this has already started with Cooley but we'll see.

And take note that no recruiting season exists between now and April/July so there is not a real risk of recruiting issues until late summer/early fall. If peer firms are playing along, then your top talent will stay. They won't leave for a temporary pay increase.

[Anonymous User]

Someone told me yesterday that they had some inside information that DPW is planning to re-raise significantly but don’t expect it to happen until closer to the summer. Obviously I’m not going to immediately believe that but if it is as significant as a raise as they described I would probably ultimately be happy even though it’s not convenient.

Bullshit. If DPW was going to do this there is absolutely no reason not to do it by now. They'll have to true up anyways.

I wrote a brilliant analysis upthread about why they wouldn't do it now (and didn't even mention the potential market crash in the works). I'm glad other people who exist outside of this forum agree with my analysis (or at least are willing to troll on my behalf). Pasted below for your edification

Alright look I got an A- in law firm finance seminar at YHSCCN so I can tell you exactly what's happening. (lol)

(but seriously) Think like a managing partner for a second. If v10 matches now, then v10 will be expected to pay increased salary all year and at least one mid year special bonus. If they all collectively agree to ignore this, DPW can SHATTER the millybank scale effective April 1 or July 1, with a 3 or 6 month true up disguised as a pretty fat "special bonus" (like 2018 or whatever year that happened). And the market will follow. Final result: DPW maintains its spot as top comp dog and they nip the firehose of *actual* special bonuses. Remember, firms DO NOT want to pay us these bonuses for the rest of forever. The gravy train has to end eventually.

The one big risk is whether all firms play ball (kind of a millionaire prisoner's dilemma). A cascading match would force DPW to abandon this plan and match/raise early. Debatably this has already started with Cooley but we'll see.

And take note that no recruiting season exists between now and April/July so there is not a real risk of recruiting issues until late summer/early fall. If peer firms are playing along, then your top talent will stay. They won't leave for a temporary pay increase.

I’m not trolling. I heard it from someone at Skadden. Obviously it’s like a game of telephone, but it’s something.

Edit: I just read what you wrote! That’s exactly what someone told him was happening!