Penn Law Honors Forum

[Anonymous User]

Our class is immensely incredible. I don't mean that in some cliche way that a graduation speaker would say. We were admitted during the most competitive admissions cycle in recent history and Penn's medians shot up several numbers our year. And the people I've interacted with are nothing short of brilliant. I will really miss you guys!

[Anonymous User]

Out of curiosity, how do we see the honors / awards lists if we’re not 3Ls?

[Anonymous User]

Our class is immensely incredible. I don't mean that in some cliche way that a graduation speaker would say. We were admitted during the most competitive admissions cycle in recent history and Penn's medians shot up several numbers our year. And the people I've interacted with are nothing short of brilliant. I will really miss you guys!

Someone heard fewer rumors of cheating than I did.

[Anonymous User]

Out of curiosity, how do we see the honors / awards lists if we’re not 3Ls?

They’re in the commencement program here: https://www.law.upenn.edu/live/files/13 ... pcl-honors

[Anonymous User]

people that get accommodations should not be allowed to get honors. let alone the valedictorian title

Same for transfers and people who somehow managed to stretch law school into a four-year (or more) program

[Anonymous User]

people that get accommodations should not be allowed to get honors. let alone the valedictorian title

someone's salty that people with disabilities can also be smart! (what a shitty blanket rule to advocate for)

[Anonymous User]

people that get accommodations should not be allowed to get honors. let alone the valedictorian title

someone's salty that people with disabilities can also be smart! (what a shitty blanket rule to advocate for)

I am very sympathetic to this argument in other contexts, but there are some exams where it is a huge advantage to have extra time. And we're graded on a curve. The answer should be changing the format of law school exams so that you don't have three-hour, brain-dump tests for which time is so key. Many professors have already done this. But in the meantime, it's hard to ignore that there are some people who are getting a huge leg up with accommodations that aren't always needed because the process for getting them is relatively lax. Not to mention that rich kids are more likely to have these accommodations: https://www.wsj.com/articles/many-more- ... 1558450347.

[Anonymous User]

people that get accommodations should not be allowed to get honors. let alone the valedictorian title

someone's salty that people with disabilities can also be smart! (what a shitty blanket rule to advocate for)

I am very sympathetic to this argument in other contexts, but there are some exams where it is a huge advantage to have extra time. And we're graded on a curve. The answer should be changing the format of law school exams so that you don't have three-hour, brain-dump tests for which time is so key. Many professors have already done this. But in the meantime, it's hard to ignore that there are some people who are getting a huge leg up with accommodations that aren't always needed because the process for getting them is relatively lax. Not to mention that rich kids are more likely to have these accommodations: https://www.wsj.com/articles/many-more- ... 1558450347.

Extra time is absolutely abused. At my school whenever we take an exam I would say 2/3 of those who ended up order of the coif room were in the accomodated room. Our valedictorian though didn't do accommodations which made it impressive that he was able to outcompete everybody.

[Anonymous User]

What is the process for getting extra time (just an ADHD diagnosis doctor's note?) at Penn or peer schools? I have read that getting accommodations for the bar exam is extremely difficult so it doesn't seem to be in these schools' interests to be lax. Never wanted to ask my friends with accommodations what they had to do for law school processes

[Anonymous User]

What is the process for getting extra time (just an ADHD diagnosis doctor's note?) at Penn or peer schools? I have read that getting accommodations for the bar exam is extremely difficult so it doesn't seem to be in these schools' interests to be lax. Never wanted to ask my friends with accommodations what they had to do for law school processes

Just find a doctor to diagnose you with ADHD and he or she will almost certainly write a note for 1.5 times. It's a racket.

Note I'm not saying accomodatosn are not needed for some people, but it high time we take our heads out of the sand and admit that we have a real problem in law schools (and on the LSAT).

[Anonymous User]

What is the process for getting extra time (just an ADHD diagnosis doctor's note?) at Penn or peer schools? I have read that getting accommodations for the bar exam is extremely difficult so it doesn't seem to be in these schools' interests to be lax. Never wanted to ask my friends with accommodations what they had to do for law school processes

Just find a doctor to diagnose you with ADHD and he or she will almost certainly write a note for 1.5 times. It's a racket.

Note I'm not saying accomodatosn are not needed for some people, but it high time we take our heads out of the sand and admit that we have a real problem in law schools (and on the LSAT).

If you really just have you submit this kind of note and that's it, that's a law school hack I didn't know I needed before 1L. Curious if that's how it works across the T14.

[Anonymous User]

What is the process for getting extra time (just an ADHD diagnosis doctor's note?) at Penn or peer schools? I have read that getting accommodations for the bar exam is extremely difficult so it doesn't seem to be in these schools' interests to be lax. Never wanted to ask my friends with accommodations what they had to do for law school processes

Just find a doctor to diagnose you with ADHD and he or she will almost certainly write a note for 1.5 times. It's a racket.

Note I'm not saying accomodatosn are not needed for some people, but it high time we take our heads out of the sand and admit that we have a real problem in law schools (and on the LSAT).

If you really just have you submit this kind of note and that's it, that's a law school hack I didn't know I needed before 1L. Curious if that's how it works across the T14.

Can confirm this is also the case at Northwestern. Accommodations abuse is rampant across the T14.

[Anonymous User]

Crying about accommodations because you didn't get the grades you wanted is not a good look

[Anonymous User]

Crying about accommodations because you didn't get the grades you wanted is not a good look

Hi I'm the wallet inspector, I need to inspect your wallet. Tsk tsk, not a good look if you don't hand over your wallet.

[Anonymous User]

Crying about accommodations because you didn't get the grades you wanted is not a good look

I finished summa and agree with the above about accommodations. Now that I’ve blessed this conversation, can it continue?

[Anonymous User]

What is the process for getting extra time (just an ADHD diagnosis doctor's note?) at Penn or peer schools? I have read that getting accommodations for the bar exam is extremely difficult so it doesn't seem to be in these schools' interests to be lax. Never wanted to ask my friends with accommodations what they had to do for law school processes

Just find a doctor to diagnose you with ADHD and he or she will almost certainly write a note for 1.5 times. It's a racket.

Note I'm not saying accomodatosn are not needed for some people, but it high time we take our heads out of the sand and admit that we have a real problem in law schools (and on the LSAT).

If you really just have you submit this kind of note and that's it, that's a law school hack I didn't know I needed before 1L. Curious if that's how it works across the T14.

Can confirm this is also the case at Northwestern. Accommodations abuse is rampant across the T14.

We could solve this problem if we encouraged all 1Ls to get a doctor's note and thus time accommodations. A backdoor to universal design: everyone has more time than is "necessary", so no one is at a disadvantage due to the impact of disability or due to the impact of bad-faith applications for extra time.

[Anonymous User]

Accommodations aside, Penn has a lot of fixing that needs to happen. A 1L who was diagnosed with cancer wrote on a viral social media post that she was "not feeling supported by [Penn Law]." Very few people in our class got a clerkship in a competitive district like NYC, CA or DC. Calling the Registrar's office is like pulling teeth. Things need to change, and only got worse under Lee.

[Anonymous User]

What is the process for getting extra time (just an ADHD diagnosis doctor's note?) at Penn or peer schools? I have read that getting accommodations for the bar exam is extremely difficult so it doesn't seem to be in these schools' interests to be lax. Never wanted to ask my friends with accommodations what they had to do for law school processes

Just find a doctor to diagnose you with ADHD and he or she will almost certainly write a note for 1.5 times. It's a racket.

Note I'm not saying accomodatosn are not needed for some people, but it high time we take our heads out of the sand and admit that we have a real problem in law schools (and on the LSAT).

If you really just have you submit this kind of note and that's it, that's a law school hack I didn't know I needed before 1L. Curious if that's how it works across the T14.

Can confirm this is also the case at Northwestern. Accommodations abuse is rampant across the T14.

Yep can also confirm at NYU. In fact, a semi-friend of mine who wasn't accommodated, realized the disadvantage, and then got accommodate for 1L spring and is graduating magna. All he had to do was go to a doctor and tell them he had trouble focusing in class. On the one hand I respect the hustle and don't really care cause I don't want to clerk on SCOTUS. On the other hand, I can imagine how a genuine top student would be furious about this.

One potential issue is giving more time than necessary and putting a word limit on an exam. One of my professors at NYU flat out said he was doing that to avoid unfair advantages (which I guess implies accommodations, unless someone can think of something else). It was 6 hours and 2,500 words (thus, people with extra time get 9 hours, which is not that much more of an advantage than 6 hours). I thought it was a good idea.

If a professor, on the other hand, is doing a "time-crunched" exam which is 3 hours and no word limit, it seems absurdly obvious that this gives people with accommodation a gigantic advantage.

[Anonymous User]

What is the process for getting extra time (just an ADHD diagnosis doctor's note?) at Penn or peer schools? I have read that getting accommodations for the bar exam is extremely difficult so it doesn't seem to be in these schools' interests to be lax. Never wanted to ask my friends with accommodations what they had to do for law school processes

Just find a doctor to diagnose you with ADHD and he or she will almost certainly write a note for 1.5 times. It's a racket.

Note I'm not saying accomodatosn are not needed for some people, but it high time we take our heads out of the sand and admit that we have a real problem in law schools (and on the LSAT).

If you really just have you submit this kind of note and that's it, that's a law school hack I didn't know I needed before 1L. Curious if that's how it works across the T14.

Can confirm this is also the case at Northwestern. Accommodations abuse is rampant across the T14.

Yep can also confirm at NYU. In fact, a semi-friend of mine who wasn't accommodated, realized the disadvantage, and then got accommodate for 1L spring and is graduating magna. All he had to do was go to a doctor and tell them he had trouble focusing in class. On the one hand I respect the hustle and don't really care cause I don't want to clerk on SCOTUS. On the other hand, I can imagine how a genuine top student would be furious about this.

One potential issue is giving more time than necessary and putting a word limit on an exam. One of my professors at NYU flat out said he was doing that to avoid unfair advantages (which I guess implies accommodations, unless someone can think of something else). It was 6 hours and 2,500 words (thus, people with extra time get 9 hours, which is not that much more of an advantage than 6 hours). I thought it was a good idea.

If a professor, on the other hand, is doing a "time-crunched" exam which is 3 hours and no word limit, it seems absurdly obvious that this gives people with accommodation a gigantic advantage.

Graduated coif without accommodations. This is a really big problem.

Totally agree with you. The other solution would be to make accommodations much harder to get, so only those who truly need it can access them. But given our generation’s culture (shoutout CLS for asking for P/F because of events overseas) and spineless admins, the trend only seems set to continue.

[Anonymous User]

The LSAT has the same problems - they don't even report the data on how many test takers receive accommodations anymore. Accoms abuse are a real problem that perversely, impacts those who are most disadvantaged, as they are less likely to be "in the know". The only viable solution is to remove the speeded component of these exams and make them more difficult. Law school exams can also get around this by a word limit instead of the asinine "point-checkoff" that most Profs do for grading.

[Anonymous User]

people that get accommodations should not be allowed to get honors. let alone the valedictorian title

someone's salty that people with disabilities can also be smart! (what a shitty blanket rule to advocate for)

I am very sympathetic to this argument in other contexts, but there are some exams where it is a huge advantage to have extra time. And we're graded on a curve. The answer should be changing the format of law school exams so that you don't have three-hour, brain-dump tests for which time is so key. Many professors have already done this. But in the meantime, it's hard to ignore that there are some people who are getting a huge leg up with accommodations that aren't always needed because the process for getting them is relatively lax. Not to mention that rich kids are more likely to have these accommodations: https://www.wsj.com/articles/many-more- ... 1558450347.

Fisch exams provide the perfect example of an exam format that just shouldn't happen these days because there is an immense advantage in having extra time.

[Anonymous User]

Accommodations aside, Penn has a lot of fixing that needs to happen. A 1L who was diagnosed with cancer wrote on a viral social media post that she was "not feeling supported by [Penn Law]."

This is troubling because the process for getting accommodations is so lax. It's a free for all if you claim to have ADHD but boo-hoo if you have cancer??

[Anonymous User]

I always wonder how many of the people complaining about the lax process for receiving accommodations have actually gotten accommodations, because I did not find it particularly lax at Penn for my (very obvious, lifelong) disability. I also did not receive all the accommodations I requested. I coached other folks through the accommodations process who also faced an uphill battle getting approved, including for ADHD. There are absolutely ways to manipulate the system (especially if you have a physician who is unethical) but it's not nearly as simple as people describe. As a result, it does not surprise me at all that someone with cancer is struggling with getting the accommodations she needs from Penn.

Additionally, as someone who received testing accommodations but not extra time, not everyone who isn't in your testing room is getting extra time. Some folks are taking it with normal time but no distractions, some need special equipment, etc. The blanket assumption that people not in the room are receiving extra time is an incorrect assumption.

[Anonymous User]

I always wonder how many of the people complaining about the lax process for receiving accommodations have actually gotten accommodations, because I did not find it particularly lax at Penn for my (very obvious, lifelong) disability. I also did not receive all the accommodations I requested. I coached other folks through the accommodations process who also faced an uphill battle getting approved, including for ADHD. There are absolutely ways to manipulate the system (especially if you have a physician who is unethical) but it's not nearly as simple as people describe. As a result, it does not surprise me at all that someone with cancer is struggling with getting the accommodations she needs from Penn.

I think the general suspicion is that it’s easy to get accommodations for those who are willing to be unethical, including by seeking out unethical doctors, so this account doesn’t really go to the meat of the complaints. Do you think there is another step of the accommodations process for ADHD and extra time that people are missing or ignoring? Beyond providing a doctor’s note stating that extra time is needed?

[Anonymous User]

I always wonder how many of the people complaining about the lax process for receiving accommodations have actually gotten accommodations, because I did not find it particularly lax at Penn for my (very obvious, lifelong) disability. I also did not receive all the accommodations I requested. I coached other folks through the accommodations process who also faced an uphill battle getting approved, including for ADHD. There are absolutely ways to manipulate the system (especially if you have a physician who is unethical) but it's not nearly as simple as people describe. As a result, it does not surprise me at all that someone with cancer is struggling with getting the accommodations she needs from Penn.

I think the general suspicion is that it’s easy to get accommodations for those who are willing to be unethical, including by seeking out unethical doctors, so this account doesn’t really go to the meat of the complaints. Do you think there is another step of the accommodations process for ADHD and extra time that people are missing or ignoring? Beyond providing a doctor’s note stating that extra time is needed?

Yeah anyone who complains about legitimate accommodations is a hack. Yes, accommodations can't be precisely tailored to the needs of every single person. But the process does as equitable a job as can be reasonably expected. Everyone should be happy that their ADHD classmates get a distraction-free environment or an extra hour or so, allowing them to take exams on a level playing field.

The problem is with people who are willing to take advantage of the system. At my T14 (not Penn), the ratio of ethical to unethical seems to be somewhere between 6:4 to 8:2. I'm basing this off actual knowledge of abusers. In a 1L section with 33% of the class having accommodations, with a 6:4 ratio, that's over 10% of the section with unethical accommodations. That's going to have an insane impact on a compressed curve.