Milbank/Davis Polk/Cravath Scale: NYC to 215-415k Forum

[legalpotato]

DLA match. Just got the email.

Sorry if I missed the memo, but are we agreeing that "match" means retroactive to January 1? Is that what DLA is saying?

Also, continue to be amazed that it's the non-elite V100s matching so quickly. Don't know if they're trying to look good, or holding out hope there's no re-raise, or if it's just that DPW and STB will all eventually match Milbank and not go over but they're just in no hurry because no one there is stressing the match will come soon anyway.

I get your comment was a general one, but still I don’t get why TLS loves taking potshots at DLA. I work there and do an annualized 2000 hours, log off most nights around 8pm with no weekend work, clients don’t expect late night or weekend responsiveness, partners and associates in my team are pleasant, WFH and remote options are encouraged. My situation mirrors the other associates in my group. I’m paid market with the option of an above market bonus. It’s not heaven, I mean it’s still biglaw, but I’ve worked at a more ‘prestigious’ firm and this team is significantly better. Compare that to some first and second year lawyers at V10s who also earn market and hate their lives. Of course, there’s pros and cons to every decision, but IMO the DLA route would suit a lot of people.

Is that really life at DLA? in M&A / corporate?

So DLA pays market, your hours are 9-8 M-F? That sounds like an inhouse gig TBH

[Anonymous User]

DLA match. Just got the email.

Sorry if I missed the memo, but are we agreeing that "match" means retroactive to January 1? Is that what DLA is saying?

Also, continue to be amazed that it's the non-elite V100s matching so quickly. Don't know if they're trying to look good, or holding out hope there's no re-raise, or if it's just that DPW and STB will all eventually match Milbank and not go over but they're just in no hurry because no one there is stressing the match will come soon anyway.

I get your comment was a general one, but still I don’t get why TLS loves taking potshots at DLA. I work there and do an annualized 2000 hours, log off most nights around 8pm with no weekend work, clients don’t expect late night or weekend responsiveness, partners and associates in my team are pleasant, WFH and remote options are encouraged. My situation mirrors the other associates in my group. I’m paid market with the option of an above market bonus. It’s not heaven, I mean it’s still biglaw, but I’ve worked at a more ‘prestigious’ firm and this team is significantly better. Compare that to some first and second year lawyers at V10s who also earn market and hate their lives. Of course, there’s pros and cons to every decision, but IMO the DLA route would suit a lot of people.

Is that really life at DLA? in M&A / corporate?

So DLA pays market, your hours are 9-8 M-F? That sounds like an inhouse gig TBH

(Exhibit ZA in the "Is Biglaw Really That Bad?" thread)

[Anonymous User]

DLA anon here. I can only speak for my team, and it’s a big firm, but yes that’s been my experience. I’m always super busy during those hours, which means I hit my targets.

[Anonymous User]

DLA match. Just got the email.

Sorry if I missed the memo, but are we agreeing that "match" means retroactive to January 1? Is that what DLA is saying?

Also, continue to be amazed that it's the non-elite V100s matching so quickly. Don't know if they're trying to look good, or holding out hope there's no re-raise, or if it's just that DPW and STB will all eventually match Milbank and not go over but they're just in no hurry because no one there is stressing the match will come soon anyway.

I get your comment was a general one, but still I don’t get why TLS loves taking potshots at DLA. I work there and do an annualized 2000 hours, log off most nights around 8pm with no weekend work, clients don’t expect late night or weekend responsiveness, partners and associates in my team are pleasant, WFH and remote options are encouraged. My situation mirrors the other associates in my group. I’m paid market with the option of an above market bonus. It’s not heaven, I mean it’s still biglaw, but I’ve worked at a more ‘prestigious’ firm and this team is significantly better. Compare that to some first and second year lawyers at V10s who also earn market and hate their lives. Of course, there’s pros and cons to every decision, but IMO the DLA route would suit a lot of people.

Is that really life at DLA? in M&A / corporate?

So DLA pays market, your hours are 9-8 M-F? That sounds like an inhouse gig TBH

(Exhibit ZA in the "Is Biglaw Really That Bad?" thread)

I don't get why TLS takes shots at any big firms really except the top ones for laughs. We are all just lawyers doing the same dumb work.

[Anonymous User]

DLA match. Just got the email.

Sorry if I missed the memo, but are we agreeing that "match" means retroactive to January 1? Is that what DLA is saying?

Also, continue to be amazed that it's the non-elite V100s matching so quickly. Don't know if they're trying to look good, or holding out hope there's no re-raise, or if it's just that DPW and STB will all eventually match Milbank and not go over but they're just in no hurry because no one there is stressing the match will come soon anyway.

I get your comment was a general one, but still I don’t get why TLS loves taking potshots at DLA. I work there and do an annualized 2000 hours, log off most nights around 8pm with no weekend work, clients don’t expect late night or weekend responsiveness, partners and associates in my team are pleasant, WFH and remote options are encouraged. My situation mirrors the other associates in my group. I’m paid market with the option of an above market bonus. It’s not heaven, I mean it’s still biglaw, but I’ve worked at a more ‘prestigious’ firm and this team is significantly better. Compare that to some first and second year lawyers at V10s who also earn market and hate their lives. Of course, there’s pros and cons to every decision, but IMO the DLA route would suit a lot of people.

Is that really life at DLA? in M&A / corporate?

So DLA pays market, your hours are 9-8 M-F? That sounds like an inhouse gig TBH

(Exhibit ZA in the "Is Biglaw Really That Bad?" thread)

Thread too long. But are ppl saying that if you get outside the v20 or something, there are firms that still pay market that have reasonable work hours? I just assumed everyone is miserable in biglaw, and the only alternative was to go inhouse or go to a regional where you are helping sell dental offices for $1.5 million.

[ExpOriental]

DLA match. Just got the email.

Sorry if I missed the memo, but are we agreeing that "match" means retroactive to January 1? Is that what DLA is saying?

Also, continue to be amazed that it's the non-elite V100s matching so quickly. Don't know if they're trying to look good, or holding out hope there's no re-raise, or if it's just that DPW and STB will all eventually match Milbank and not go over but they're just in no hurry because no one there is stressing the match will come soon anyway.

I get your comment was a general one, but still I don’t get why TLS loves taking potshots at DLA. I work there and do an annualized 2000 hours, log off most nights around 8pm with no weekend work, clients don’t expect late night or weekend responsiveness, partners and associates in my team are pleasant, WFH and remote options are encouraged. My situation mirrors the other associates in my group. I’m paid market with the option of an above market bonus. It’s not heaven, I mean it’s still biglaw, but I’ve worked at a more ‘prestigious’ firm and this team is significantly better. Compare that to some first and second year lawyers at V10s who also earn market and hate their lives. Of course, there’s pros and cons to every decision, but IMO the DLA route would suit a lot of people.

I think your real issue is that you're taking seriously a person who unironically uses the phrase "non-elite"

[Anonymous User]

Can second that I’m at one of the early match firms and I am very happy. Have also previously worked at a V10 for years and like this much better.

People are more easy going, it’s a bit less pressure (relative to big law standards), hours are lighter, I get more actual litigation experience. Oh, and bonuses are a some thousands above market even if we bill under 2100 hours. Even higher of course if you’re a higher biller. I’m living a good life.

My theory as to why we match early is because we want to 1) show we can and 2) aren’t embarrassed by not setting the market and having to reraise after DPW or cravath raises the market. We’re not trying to stop a reraise from occurring (not sure how this theory was started because these lower firms don’t set the market anyway). My firm at least has the $$ and proves it very bonus season. Frankly I’m way better compensated here than my V10. And way happier. It’s a win win.

[BrowsingTLS]

Can second that I’m at one of the early match firms and I am very happy. Have also previously worked at a V10 for years and like this much better.

...

Frankly I’m way better compensated here than my V10. And way happier. It’s a win win.

It's not your V10 anymore. never was. let it go buddy and enjoy your post caring about prefftige life.

Also, I don't know what happened to the Match News Only thread but it was much better than reading all the garbage being posted. I want match news and i want it now.

[Anonymous User]

DLA match. Just got the email.

Sorry if I missed the memo, but are we agreeing that "match" means retroactive to January 1? Is that what DLA is saying?

Also, continue to be amazed that it's the non-elite V100s matching so quickly. Don't know if they're trying to look good, or holding out hope there's no re-raise, or if it's just that DPW and STB will all eventually match Milbank and not go over but they're just in no hurry because no one there is stressing the match will come soon anyway.

I get your comment was a general one, but still I don’t get why TLS loves taking potshots at DLA. I work there and do an annualized 2000 hours, log off most nights around 8pm with no weekend work, clients don’t expect late night or weekend responsiveness, partners and associates in my team are pleasant, WFH and remote options are encouraged. My situation mirrors the other associates in my group. I’m paid market with the option of an above market bonus. It’s not heaven, I mean it’s still biglaw, but I’ve worked at a more ‘prestigious’ firm and this team is significantly better. Compare that to some first and second year lawyers at V10s who also earn market and hate their lives. Of course, there’s pros and cons to every decision, but IMO the DLA route would suit a lot of people.

Is that really life at DLA? in M&A / corporate?

So DLA pays market, your hours are 9-8 M-F? That sounds like an inhouse gig TBH

(Exhibit ZA in the "Is Biglaw Really That Bad?" thread)

Thread too long. But are ppl saying that if you get outside the v20 or something, there are firms that still pay market that have reasonable work hours? I just assumed everyone is miserable in biglaw, and the only alternative was to go inhouse or go to a regional where you are helping sell dental offices for $1.5 million.

The idea is that post shows how terrible life is in biglaw if the idea of a "predictable" 11 hours per day job M-F is considered a good landing spot in biglaw. Just do a chill 55 hours per week of work M-F.

Also, in-house gigs don't become like that until you're pretty damn senior. Your average in-house attorney position--what an associate would slide into--is definitely not doing 55 hour work weeks; closer to 40 with the very occasional long night before e.g., a deal is closing.

[Anonymous User]

It's been a week already, you'd think there would be more matches by now.

[Anonymous User]

It's been a week already, you'd think there would be more matches by now.

For sure. Looks like we've had 15 matches in the first week: https://abovethelaw.com/2021/06/salary- ... 2021/?rf=1

Last year, there were 14 matches just in the first 24 hours, including a re-raise by DPW, and *59* in the first week: https://abovethelaw.com/2021/06/salary- ... 2021/?rf=1

I suspect one big difference is that last summer there was a lot of pent-up energy for a raise. Less so now, even if everyone will eventually match.

[Anonymous User]

I suspect one big difference is that last summer there was a lot of pent-up energy for a raise. Less so now, even if everyone will eventually match.

I don't think partners were chomping at the bit to pay the associates more last summer. As has already been said ITT, DPW set strong precedent that a raise/special bonus isn't truly "market" until it has spoken. That is almost certainly what is going on here--why spend valuable partner time raising when you'll have to do it all again after DPW comes over the top? And DPW doesn't need to rush because other (former) comp leaders like CravaTTTh and STB have not been upping the ante as of late.

Firms that already matched are trying to either make a name for themselves playing with the big boys or boost associate morale. Or, in the case of my firm (Wilmer), the partners were going to send out a bonus memo anyway and probably thought it would be tone deaf to say nothing about the new scale.

[Anonymous User]

Is that really life at DLA? in M&A / corporate?

So DLA pays market, your hours are 9-8 M-F? That sounds like an inhouse gig TBH

Working 55 hours a week consistently is not a good thing in the vast majority of industries outside of psycho biglaw. Just wanted to contextualize this.

[Anonymous User]

Is that really life at DLA? in M&A / corporate?

So DLA pays market, your hours are 9-8 M-F? That sounds like an inhouse gig TBH

Working 55 hours a week consistently is not a good thing in the vast majority of industries outside of psycho biglaw. Just wanted to contextualize this.

This is getting way off-topic, but reminds me of when I described my job in biglaw to my dad and his reaction, not knowing how lawyers work, was "only 2000 hours/year? That's awesome - less than 40 hours/week!" Yeah... 55/hours week sounds like the minimum for actually billing 2000.

[Anonymous User]

DLA match. Just got the email.

Sorry if I missed the memo, but are we agreeing that "match" means retroactive to January 1? Is that what DLA is saying?

Also, continue to be amazed that it's the non-elite V100s matching so quickly. Don't know if they're trying to look good, or holding out hope there's no re-raise, or if it's just that DPW and STB will all eventually match Milbank and not go over but they're just in no hurry because no one there is stressing the match will come soon anyway.

I get your comment was a general one, but still I don’t get why TLS loves taking potshots at DLA. I work there and do an annualized 2000 hours, log off most nights around 8pm with no weekend work, clients don’t expect late night or weekend responsiveness, partners and associates in my team are pleasant, WFH and remote options are encouraged. My situation mirrors the other associates in my group. I’m paid market with the option of an above market bonus. It’s not heaven, I mean it’s still biglaw, but I’ve worked at a more ‘prestigious’ firm and this team is significantly better. Compare that to some first and second year lawyers at V10s who also earn market and hate their lives. Of course, there’s pros and cons to every decision, but IMO the DLA route would suit a lot of people.

Is that really life at DLA? in M&A / corporate?

So DLA pays market, your hours are 9-8 M-F? That sounds like an inhouse gig TBH

I do the same thing at another firm (V30). Obviously occasional late night and weekend blow-up, but I have a lot of control over my schedule. Here's the thing, it's not unique to DLA (though I'm sure it is indeed physically impossible at a ton of firms, you need to find a good situation where people are friendly and trust you): it just comes down to being a senior associate, managing deal teams and clients well, and delegating well.

Basically, it can't be done as a junior, but as you get more senior, it's possible (again, with the caveat there will be times you are absolutely destroyed and can't do anything about it).

[AureliusCapital]

It’s been a week. What is going on?

[Anonymous User]

Come on DPW .... !

[Anonymous User]

It's been a week already, you'd think there would be more matches by now.

For sure. Looks like we've had 15 matches in the first week: https://abovethelaw.com/2021/06/salary- ... 2021/?rf=1

Last year, there were 14 matches just in the first 24 hours, including a re-raise by DPW, and *59* in the first week: https://abovethelaw.com/2021/06/salary- ... 2021/?rf=1

I suspect one big difference is that last summer there was a lot of pent-up energy for a raise. Less so now, even if everyone will eventually match.

Good analysis, thanks. As you noted, the important variable seems to be DPW; last time, DPW moved +1 day after Milbank, whereas this time DPW is taking a slower approach. We won’t see a full cascade until DPW matches or comes over the top.

[Anonymous User]

It's been a week already, you'd think there would be more matches by now.

For sure. Looks like we've had 15 matches in the first week: https://abovethelaw.com/2021/06/salary- ... 2021/?rf=1

Last year, there were 14 matches just in the first 24 hours, including a re-raise by DPW, and *59* in the first week: https://abovethelaw.com/2021/06/salary- ... 2021/?rf=1

I suspect one big difference is that last summer there was a lot of pent-up energy for a raise. Less so now, even if everyone will eventually match.

Good analysis, thanks. As you noted, the important variable seems to be DPW; last time, DPW moved +1 day after Milbank, whereas this time DPW is taking a slower approach. We won’t see a full cascade until DPW matches or comes over the top.

Right re: DPW, but this has nothing to do with "pent-up energy." DPW partners weren't sitting there last summer saying oh great here's the catalyst for us to raise salaries so we can take home less COVID-era blood money.

[Anonymous User]

It should also be noted that DPW took its time to announce bonuses after Cravath did. 2 weeks from Nov 22 to DPW announcing on Dec 6.

Delay by design?

[Anonymous User]

It should also be noted that DPW took its time to announce bonuses after Cravath did. 2 weeks from Nov 22 to DPW announcing on Dec 6.

Delay by design?

This was my same thought; don't get all the "what's going on" posts when we saw exactly this playbook less than two months ago. What's going on is DPW isn't in any rush, just like they weren't in a rush during bonus season. DPW and Milbank have become recognized as the de facto compensation leaders of the industry during COVID and neither of them feel compelled to rush when there's a comp. change happening. It'll happen eventually, either with another scale raise or a solidification on a DPW announcement.

[Anonymous User]

It's been a week already, you'd think there would be more matches by now.

For sure. Looks like we've had 15 matches in the first week: https://abovethelaw.com/2021/06/salary- ... 2021/?rf=1

Last year, there were 14 matches just in the first 24 hours, including a re-raise by DPW, and *59* in the first week: https://abovethelaw.com/2021/06/salary- ... 2021/?rf=1

I suspect one big difference is that last summer there was a lot of pent-up energy for a raise. Less so now, even if everyone will eventually match.

Good analysis, thanks. As you noted, the important variable seems to be DPW; last time, DPW moved +1 day after Milbank, whereas this time DPW is taking a slower approach. We won’t see a full cascade until DPW matches or comes over the top.

Right re: DPW, but this has nothing to do with "pent-up energy." DPW partners weren't sitting there last summer saying oh great here's the catalyst for us to raise salaries so we can take home less COVID-era blood money.

Yeah I didn't really phrase that right. Didn't mean pent-up energy in terms of a desire by partners to pay associates more. More like, firm leadership across biglaw knew it was coming and had likely already accepted the fact of the raise ahead of time, so there may have been less resistance and grumbling from the penny-pinchers. (This is also colored from my experience at a penny-pinching firm where younger partners have said they actually did have to convince older-school partners who were seriously questioning the need to match market.)

[Anonymous User]

Is that really life at DLA? in M&A / corporate?

So DLA pays market, your hours are 9-8 M-F? That sounds like an inhouse gig TBH

Working 55 hours a week consistently is not a good thing in the vast majority of industries outside of psycho biglaw. Just wanted to contextualize this.

The vast majority of industries don't give you a top 1% of salary. Those that do require similar hours. Just wanted to contextualize this.

*Let the ok, boomer comments roll in*

[Anonymous User]

Is that really life at DLA? in M&A / corporate?

So DLA pays market, your hours are 9-8 M-F? That sounds like an inhouse gig TBH

Working 55 hours a week consistently is not a good thing in the vast majority of industries outside of psycho biglaw. Just wanted to contextualize this.

The vast majority of industries don't give you a top 1% of salary. Those that do require similar hours. Just wanted to contextualize this.

*Let the ok, boomer comments roll in*

Cool. On the other side of the coin, I have friends in PE and banking who laugh their assess off at how hard people in biglaw work for the relative amount of money they're making. So different strokes I guess.

[almostperfectt]

Is that really life at DLA? in M&A / corporate?

So DLA pays market, your hours are 9-8 M-F? That sounds like an inhouse gig TBH

Working 55 hours a week consistently is not a good thing in the vast majority of industries outside of psycho biglaw. Just wanted to contextualize this.

The vast majority of industries don't give you a top 1% of salary. Those that do require similar hours. Just wanted to contextualize this.

*Let the ok, boomer comments roll in*

Cool. On the other side of the coin, I have friends in PE and banking who laugh their assess off at how hard people in biglaw work for the relative amount of money they're making. So different strokes I guess.

How hard some* people work in biglaw. I swear this job self-selects for people who take their job way too seriously, even adjusting for how much it pays.