2020 End of Year Bonuses Forum

[Anonymous User]

Holiday fun is just around the corner…
We are excited to see you at our cross-office holiday party on Thursday, December 17. Mingle with your colleagues, meet new friends and enjoy festive entertainment, including:

• A photo booth and caricature artists, capture the evening’s memories
• A world-renowned magician and mentalist
• Live music, including a string trio and a highly acclaimed chorus
• Virtual classes, learn something new or refine your skills:
  • Champagne and wine demo
  • The art of holiday gift wrapping
  • And more!

It all seems like a huge waste of money and I think it raises the stakes for them because now if bonuses aren't as good as we expect, it will be even easier to say "we spent all that money on a fucking zoom party but they couldn't pay out?"

I want to take a moment to thank my firm and every other firm for not doing this.

No sarcasm intended. Really, this isn't a summer program. We can do without this shit.

Having said that, K&E isn't going to be too broke to pay bonuses because they put together this junk.

Accidental anon: avenuem.

[malibustacy]

Holiday fun is just around the corner…
We are excited to see you at our cross-office holiday party on Thursday, December 17. Mingle with your colleagues, meet new friends and enjoy festive entertainment, including:

• A photo booth and caricature artists, capture the evening’s memories
• A world-renowned magician and mentalist
• Live music, including a string trio and a highly acclaimed chorus
• Virtual classes, learn something new or refine your skills:
  • Champagne and wine demo
  • The art of holiday gift wrapping
  • And more!

It all seems like a huge waste of money and I think it raises the stakes for them because now if bonuses aren't as good as we expect, it will be even easier to say "we spent all that money on a fucking zoom party but they couldn't pay out?"

I want to take a moment to thank my firm and every other firm for not doing this.

No sarcasm intended. Really, this isn't a summer program. We can do without this shit.

Having said that, K&E isn't going to be too broke to pay bonuses because they put together this junk.

Accidental anon: avenuem.

Eh. I mean, even if like 10% of attendees have fun, seems worth it for the firm to make an effort. It's not going to cost more than a couple hundred thousand dollars overall anyhow.

The non-lawyer staff always seemed like the ones having the most fun at these events.

[lolwutpar]

Is it really a Christmas party if you can't raid the hosting partner's booze cabinet at 11 pm?

[Anonymous User]

Schulte Roth matched market fall + end of year bonus with 1800 hour requirement (usually 2,000) plus additional class-year dependent bonuses for 2070/2250/2430 hours (up to $15k per tier hit/45k in aggregate). 50% bonus for 1600-1800 hours. $5k for below 1600.

[Anonymous User]

Schulte Roth matched market fall + end of year bonus with 1800 hour requirement (usually 2,000) plus additional class-year dependent bonuses for 2070/2250/2430 hours (up to $15k per tier hit/45k in aggregate). 50% bonus for 1600-1800 hours. $5k for below 1600.

Clarifying: 50% bonus 1600-1800 is just the regular bonus. Special is all or nothing at 1800.

[Anonymous User]

Arnold & Porter sent out its bonus email today. No mention at all of special bonuses - just a list of the standard base bonuses and a note that associates who hill 2400+ can receive up to 20% additional.

Not a surprise after the firm’s September email stating that hours requirements would be strictly enforced. Nonetheless disappointing given all the boasting the firm has done at town halls on how well it’s doing.

[Anonymous User]

Arnold & Porter sent out its bonus email today. No mention at all of special bonuses - just a list of the standard base bonuses and a note that associates who hill 2400+ can receive up to 20% additional.

Not a surprise after the firm’s September email stating that hours requirements would be strictly enforced. Nonetheless disappointing given all the boasting the firm has done at town halls on how well it’s doing.

Pretty surprising from A&P. Can’t imagine this will go well re attrition and laterals esp since their peers are all paying.

It’s one thing for a transparently cheap firm like Baker McKenzie not to pay, but from better firms whose peers have largely paid... Ugh.

[Anonymous User]

AP associate here. AP is cheap AF. The poster left out that they’re giving senior associates bonuses up to $140K. That $100K end-of-year market bonus + $40K, which = top end of Covid bonuses. AP is just giving the middle finger to junior and mid-level associates.

[MrTooToo]

Arnold & Porter sent out its bonus email today. No mention at all of special bonuses - just a list of the standard base bonuses and a note that associates who hill 2400+ can receive up to 20% additional.

Not a surprise after the firm’s September email stating that hours requirements would be strictly enforced. Nonetheless disappointing given all the boasting the firm has done at town halls on how well it’s doing.

That's really bad. If I were an associate there I'd absolutely be looking to lateral and this seems like an easy choice of "firm to avoid" for competitive law students at OCI. They must be pretty desperate to not pay a fall bonus.

[Elston Gunn]

Arnold & Porter sent out its bonus email today. No mention at all of special bonuses - just a list of the standard base bonuses and a note that associates who hill 2400+ can receive up to 20% additional.

Not a surprise after the firm’s September email stating that hours requirements would be strictly enforced. Nonetheless disappointing given all the boasting the firm has done at town halls on how well it’s doing.

Pretty surprising from A&P. Can’t imagine this will go well re attrition and laterals esp since their peers are all paying.

It’s one thing for a transparently cheap firm like Baker McKenzie not to pay, but from better firms whose peers have largely paid... Ugh.

Wasn’t A&P one of the few firms that didn’t pay summer bonuses a couple years back as well? It’s funny, because in law school I and my classmates treated them as a peer to Covington, Wilmer, Hogan etc. of the hometown DC firms, but seems like they’ve really fallen off.

[Anonymous User]

A&P anon poster here.

A&P did not pay summer bonuses in 2018. The firm said that it has never paid mid-year bonus and would assess at the end of the year. The firm ended up adding half of the summer bonus onto the year-end bonuses.

This year, the firm did not even acknowledge the special bonuses. I thought maybe it would have repeated the “half-match” but even this was asking too much. I have worked more than ever this year. It’s kind of maddening that associates at other firms I turned down, who could have billed hundreds of hours less, are getting paid substantially more than me, but I guess this is my own fault for picking A&P.

[Definitely Not North]

A&P anon poster here.

A&P did not pay summer bonuses in 2018. The firm said that it has never paid mid-year bonus and would assess at the end of the year. The firm ended up adding half of the summer bonus onto the year-end bonuses.

This year, the firm did not even acknowledge the special bonuses. I thought maybe it would have repeated the “half-match” but even this was asking too much. I have worked more than ever this year. It’s kind of maddening that associates at other firms I turned down, who could have billed hundreds of hours less, are getting paid substantially more than me, but I guess this is my own fault for picking A&P.

Wow that blows. Vote with your feet my dude

[MrTooToo]

A&P anon poster here.

A&P did not pay summer bonuses in 2018. The firm said that it has never paid mid-year bonus and would assess at the end of the year. The firm ended up adding half of the summer bonus onto the year-end bonuses.

This year, the firm did not even acknowledge the special bonuses. I thought maybe it would have repeated the “half-match” but even this was asking too much. I have worked more than ever this year. It’s kind of maddening that associates at other firms I turned down, who could have billed hundreds of hours less, are getting paid substantially more than me, but I guess this is my own fault for picking A&P.

Leave. It's really that simple. The lateral market is active right now. Compensation is one of the only ways these firms can show that they give a damn about their associates & A&P is obviously signaling that they don't even care that much.

[cornerstone]

A&P anon poster here.

A&P did not pay summer bonuses in 2018. The firm said that it has never paid mid-year bonus and would assess at the end of the year. The firm ended up adding half of the summer bonus onto the year-end bonuses.

This year, the firm did not even acknowledge the special bonuses. I thought maybe it would have repeated the “half-match” but even this was asking too much. I have worked more than ever this year. It’s kind of maddening that associates at other firms I turned down, who could have billed hundreds of hours less, are getting paid substantially more than me, but I guess this is my own fault for picking A&P.

Leave. It's really that simple. The lateral market is active right now. Compensation is one of the only ways these firms can show that they give a damn about their associates & A&P is obviously signaling that they don't even care that much.

I think it's bigger than not caring. A&P has lower PPP than what they would consider peer firms. Other big DC lit/government practices like Cov, W&C, Wilmer, Gibson, Hogan are like $250k+ higher (granted that's mostly a function of A&P's low leverage). Revenue also declined from 2019-2020. With their low numbers, it's going to get harder for them to offer competitive compensation packages for talent leaving government/AUSA (not to mention difficulty recruiting 1Ls who want a market salary). A&P also dropped from #4 on Vault in DC to #9. I'd say this all signifies (continued?) financial difficulties post-merger. 1Ls and laterals steer clear--you don't want to join the next Dewey or Bingham.

[Anonymous User]

A&P anon poster here.

A&P did not pay summer bonuses in 2018. The firm said that it has never paid mid-year bonus and would assess at the end of the year. The firm ended up adding half of the summer bonus onto the year-end bonuses.

This year, the firm did not even acknowledge the special bonuses. I thought maybe it would have repeated the “half-match” but even this was asking too much. I have worked more than ever this year. It’s kind of maddening that associates at other firms I turned down, who could have billed hundreds of hours less, are getting paid substantially more than me, but I guess this is my own fault for picking A&P.

Leave. It's really that simple. The lateral market is active right now. Compensation is one of the only ways these firms can show that they give a damn about their associates & A&P is obviously signaling that they don't even care that much.

I think it's bigger than not caring. A&P has lower PPP than what they would consider peer firms. Other big DC lit/government practices like Cov, W&C, Wilmer, Gibson, Hogan are like $250k+ higher (granted that's mostly a function of A&P's low leverage). Revenue also declined from 2019-2020. With their low numbers, it's going to get harder for them to offer competitive compensation packages for talent leaving government/AUSA (not to mention difficulty recruiting 1Ls who want a market salary). A&P also dropped from #4 on Vault in DC to #9. I'd say this all signifies (continued?) financial difficulties post-merger. 1Ls and laterals steer clear--you don't want to join the next Dewey or Bingham.

The relatively low PPP is a function of Arnold & PorTTTer having only equity partners, which is what counts for PPP purposes.

[cornerstone]

The relatively low PPP is a function of Arnold & PorTTTer having only equity partners, which is what counts for PPP purposes.

(1) Why is this anon? What a waste (or a troll).

(2) That's not entirely true - plenty of firms have higher PPP than A&P with no income partners, but make up for it with leverage. Partner comp at A&P is probably stratified as if there were income partners, but not enough to make up for their low leverage.

[Anonymous User]

Winston (V40) has signaled that it likely will not pay special bonuses, but they've kept the door open depending on what the "market" does. I agree with the comment above that they're waiting for cover from a peer firm. That said, historically our announcement comes like clockwork about ten days from now, so it will be interesting to see what they do if none of our "peer" firms have moved by then.

Either way, it will be telling. They've always taken pride in paying "top of the market" comp, and they won't have that claim if they don't do special bonuses. They've already started trying to position "COVID" bonuses as an anomaly unique to certain NYC centric firms -- but I don't think they expect us to actually believe that.

I agree with the poster above that these bonuses might finally break the dam after all these years. It's never made sense for the top 100 firms to have essentially identical comp (I know certain firms cheat here and there). The question will be where the dividing line is and what the key metrics are, and what effect the bifurcation has on laterals/recruiting.

Curious who has signaled this at Winston? Would think I'm in a fairly well connected practice group and have not heard this? Think Winston has tried more and more to position itself as an NYC firm (expects this to become the biggest office within the next few years, focused on growth in that office, etc.) so to not do this would be surprising to me.

+1

This was said at the last Chicago quarterly associate's meeting. That should tell you who said it. And I hope you're right!

To another poster's question about what "peers" we might follow, I typically think of Sidley and Mayer Brown, since we're first and foremost a Chicago firm. But the other posters might be right that the NY office is moving up, so it makes sense to follow what comparable NYC firms are doing.

Unfortunately I don't think I'm right. It seemed for a while that Winston wanted to turn-over a new leaf on associate morale from the 2012 and older no-offer summer horror stories that still get brought up on this board by matching the summer bonuses before any other Chicago-based firm, instituting the 20-week gender neutral parental leave policy, 100% offer rates the last few years for summers, etc. But them coming dangerously close to salary cuts, the stealth "layoffs" this summer, combined with the new legal support reimagined initiative all strike me as hints that they've abandoned trying to care about these types of things and what you heard at the meeting only confirms this. Hope I'm wrong.

Original anon on this subject. Now that Sidley has matched special bonuses (albeit with an hours requirement), it will be pretty disastrous if Winston doesn't. Feeling more confident than before.

[Anonymous User]

Arnold & Porter sent out its bonus email today. No mention at all of special bonuses - just a list of the standard base bonuses and a note that associates who hill 2400+ can receive up to 20% additional.

Not a surprise after the firm’s September email stating that hours requirements would be strictly enforced. Nonetheless disappointing given all the boasting the firm has done at town halls on how well it’s doing.

Pretty surprising from A&P. Can’t imagine this will go well re attrition and laterals esp since their peers are all paying.

It’s one thing for a transparently cheap firm like Baker McKenzie not to pay, but from better firms whose peers have largely paid... Ugh.

None of the DC peers have moved yet though, right? Despite getting a lot bigger in NYC when it ate Kaye Scholer A&P definitely still follows the DC market. And FWIW Covington conspicuously didn't pay fall bonuses, https://abovethelaw.com/2020/11/hope-fo ... ding-fast/

[Anonymous User]

The 80% of associates getting bonus at Sidley has to be bullshit right? Has to be a management leak to control PR. I was there for 6 years during normal times and every single town hall they said only 50% of associates hit 2000 qualifying hours. Every. Damn. Year. There's no way that number increased that much during COVID. Anyone got any anecdotal tales?

The aggregate 45% more bonus paid than previous year more makes sense if you consider size of firm growing and the fact COVID bonuses are 30-40% of mid to senior associate bonuses. So true number is probably similar amount paid to a smaller group of folks, so those who got paid are happy.

[Anonymous User]

--

[M458]

The 80% of associates getting bonus at Sidley has to be bullshit right? Has to be a management leak to control PR. I was there for 6 years during normal times and every single town hall they said only 50% of associates hit 2000 qualifying hours. Every. Damn. Year. There's no way that number increased that much during COVID. Anyone got any anecdotal tales?

The aggregate 45% more bonus paid than previous year more makes sense if you consider size of firm growing and the fact COVID bonuses are 30-40% of mid to senior associate bonuses. So true number is probably similar amount paid to a smaller group of folks, so those who got paid are happy.

From the statement and article, they’ve allegedly paid out half bonuses to a chunk of associates who didn’t meet the 2000 threshold, so I could see the 80% figure being true if you count any type of bonus whatsoever (vs. folks who got a market bonus). That still means a fifth of associates got zilch and a large undisclosed percentage still came in way below market though.

[Anonymous User]

Wait, when are the Sidley bonuses payable / how do you know what you got, if anything?

[MrTooToo]

It is absolutely insane to me that any firm in the V25 would create an arbitrary hours cutoff around the 2,000 hour mark in the middle of a pandemic. It is a true morale destroyer: "John, thanks for your hard work billing 1,975 hours in a global pandemic, but because you missed the mark by 25h, we're going to pay you $50,000 less than you otherwise would have gotten this year. But really, keep up the great work next year. Attaboy." It's why true peer firms have never used hours cut-offs, because the leadership is smart enough to realize that attorneys' years ebb and flow but having an across-the-board bonus keeps everyone generally motivated and avoids resentment.

TL;DR: Fuck places like Sidley and A&P and lol at anyone trying to OCI or lateral into them.

[nahumya]

Does anyone know why Vault ranks Arnold & Porter higher than firms like Fried Frank, Orrick, and Shearman & Sterling? Is it the idea that DC-based firms are less profitable overall but can still attract good talent?

[Anonymous User]

I think Sidley bonuses come in next paycheck on 12/18. Each group has a different system for letting associates know. Frankly pretty absurd IMO to be complaining about getting less than full special bonus for not meeting well-established hours reqs which haven't changed from past years (this from someone who didn't hit them). Sidley has been very open about providing partial bonuses so that scenario of missing hours by 25 and going from a 25k bonus to 0 doesn't happen, everything's case by case. I expect 80%+ of associates will receive a bonus in line with hours and very few will be surprised by the amount (good or bad), since the hours targets are the same as past years, and they're allowing for flexibility in how they determine it if people don't hit certain targets.

TL;DR not seeing all the drama over this, nothing's changed, they just add the special bonus onto the regular and determine it the same as past years. Also if you're making $200K+ by working remote in a pandemic and HAVEN'T been busy, maybe be a little appreciative rather than complaining about not getting a full additional special bonus when you haven't hit hours. Personally if I wasn't busy while working from home for 6 months I'd gladly let all the people toiling take home a special bonus in exchange for me still receiving a (high) paycheck.