Prediction: When will NYC lawyers return to the office? Forum

[LBJ's Hair]

They cannot really force you to come into the office. How are they going to do that? Fire you if you do not show up in a pandemic.

I get emails twice a week that there are infections in my building.

I mean ... formally no, they're not gonna retaliate. but informally yeah, you probably feel like you're losing out professionally if some partner wants to do deposition prep in person and you're the only person that doesn't show up

I think pretty much everyone agrees that we're gonna have the "option" to stay home for the next three months minimum, but it's sorta cold comfort if most of the people you work with aren't taking it

[Anonymous User]

I mean, I’m also going to miss out professionally if I get COVID and experience debilitating long-term effects that make it difficult to work at all.

[2013]

I mean, I’m also going to miss out professionally if I get COVID and experience debilitating long-term effects that make it difficult to work at all.

I don’t think law firm partners care about that, unfortunately. If you don’t keep up, they’ll show you the door.

[Anonymous User]

I mean, I’m also going to miss out professionally if I get COVID and experience debilitating long-term effects that make it difficult to work at all.

I don’t think law firm partners care about that, unfortunately. If you don’t keep up, they’ll show you the door.

I’m aware. My point is I’m fine missing out on some opportunities at my current firm if it means I’m protecting my health and safety long-term. I’m not going to count on my firm to help me if I become a long hauler, so it’s best to avoid that outcome in the first place.

[cisscum]

With vaccine approval on the horizon, is it safe to say we'll be back in the office in January?

[blair.waldorf]

With vaccine approval on the horizon, is it safe to say we'll be back in the office in January?

The article I read said it won’t be widely distributed until next summer.

[nealric]

With vaccine approval on the horizon, is it safe to say we'll be back in the office in January?

I don't think people know for sure when you'll be able to head down to your family doctor or local CVS and get a COVID vaccine, but it's fairly certain that won't be until after January. First batch in late December ish will go to healthcare workers and second will go to vulnerable populations. Also, the vaccine requires two injections a month apart, so almost nobody will have immunity from a vaccine in January.

I'm not an infectious disease expert by any means, but based on the timelines being discussed for vaccine distribution, late Spring is probably the earliest that a reasonable portion of the population could be vaccinated, and late summer would be the earliest that we could have heard immunity such that COVID is no longer much of a factor.

[FU2016]

With vaccine approval on the horizon, is it safe to say we'll be back in the office in January?

The article I read said it won’t be widely distributed until next summer.

^Agreed. Pfizer says it can only produce 50 million doses worldwide by the end of 2020, and you need two doses to complete the regimen. So 25 million people worldwide by YE2020. CDC says that there are 18 million healthcare workers in the U.S. alone. We still have a good while.

[OsamaJerry]

So . . . turns out the year end target for vaccinations was depressingly below what was expected. Do people think we will be returning to the office this summer? I question whether that is even feasible given logistics in NYC - big buildings, crowded elevators.

Also, once COVID does go away, do people think things will just go back to the way they were beforehand? Curious to hear thoughts.

Also - have firms been paying rent? Some firms in NYC pay ridiculous rent and if they haven't been paying rent, that's a lot of extra $$ for firms. Makes me wonder whether firms will even want to go back to the way things were when they can save millions on cutting rent and office space.

[Anonymous User]

Multiple partners at my V10 don’t expect us to be back in offices until after Labor Day this year

[Anonymous User]

My v10 firm NYC has been talking a lot about returning to a "new normal" later this year (probably as you said, after Labor Day). Does anyone have a clue what this "new normal" will look like? I'm just curious because as a midlevel with a kid, I'd happily move out to a suburb with a great school district if I didn't have to commute every freaking day. Commuting 2 hours a day is not something I can do, but commuting 2 hours a day (one hour each way) 2-3 times a week, might be feasible.

[emc91]

I think a lot of associates and partners will simply demand WFH stick around if we really are WFH past Labor Day. Everyone has gotten used to working in pajamas, having more time to exercise, spending more time with family. Who wants to go back to wearing a suit and commuting every day?

On that note, does anyone think dress codes will be more casual going forward? I don’t think I can wear real clothes again.

[Frutsie]

I think a lot of associates and partners will simply demand WFH stick around if we really are WFH past Labor Day. Everyone has gotten used to working in pajamas, having more time to exercise, spending more time with family. Who wants to go back to wearing a suit and commuting every day?

On that note, does anyone think dress codes will be more casual going forward? I don’t think I can wear real clothes again.

I think we will eventually have to go back. We can't keep having virtual depos, hearings, etc. While I hope they institute a shorter work week, and alternatively optional WFH every day would be fantastic, I just don't think lawyers will allow much of the practice to become virtual (at least not permanently). That being said, if firms go about the "new normal" right, they could make the work week much more enjoyable while shedding a ton of unnecessary cost related to office space.

[cisscum]

I think a lot of associates and partners will simply demand WFH stick around if we really are WFH past Labor Day. Everyone has gotten used to working in pajamas, having more time to exercise, spending more time with family. Who wants to go back to wearing a suit and commuting every day?

On that note, does anyone think dress codes will be more casual going forward? I don’t think I can wear real clothes again.

I think we will eventually have to go back. We can't keep having virtual depos, hearings, etc. While I hope they institute a shorter work week, and alternatively optional WFH every day would be fantastic, I just don't think lawyers will allow much of the practice to become virtual (at least not permanently). That being said, if firms go about the "new normal" right, they could make the work week much more enjoyable while shedding a ton of unnecessary cost related to office space.

What about for transactional work? I just can't see them suddenly saying "alright, everyone back to the office!!"

[Anonymous User]

Long shot here — but what are the odds that some might be able to live in one state and work in another? I will likely end up in NYC postgrad, and I’m excited and humbled to be working at the firm (V50), but I am not the least bit excited to live there. Being able to stay in my current Midwest state would help my QOL tremendously.

[nealric]

Long shot here — but what are the odds that some might be able to live in one state and work in another? I will likely end up in NYC postgrad, and I’m excited and humbled to be working at the firm (V50), but I am not the least bit excited to live there. Being able to stay in my current Midwest state would help my QOL tremendously.

I think the odds are pretty slim that NYC biglaw is going to start allowing 100% remote employees post-COVID. For one, it's hard to integrate and train a brand new associate without any in-person interaction. For another, remote employees can create tax issues for employers.

[cisscum]

Long shot here — but what are the odds that some might be able to live in one state and work in another? I will likely end up in NYC postgrad, and I’m excited and humbled to be working at the firm (V50), but I am not the least bit excited to live there. Being able to stay in my current Midwest state would help my QOL tremendously.

I think the odds are pretty slim that NYC biglaw is going to start allowing 100% remote employees post-COVID. For one, it's hard to integrate and train a brand new associate without any in-person interaction. For another, remote employees can create tax issues for employers.

My V10 firm already has a tax presence in other states. I don't think the tax issues are a big deal (if the tech companies can deal with it the law firms can). Bigger issue might be UPL which I have no insight into.

I think you are underestimating how many NYC lawyers do not want to go back to NYC or even stay within commuting distance. I agree that juniors are better off with some facetime, but a lot of mid-level and seniors are not going to want to go back on a regular basis and firms will need to accommodate these people as well or they will lose talent.

[Anonymous User]

Best case: 2 days a week at the office
Most likely: 3 days a week at the office
Worst case: 4 days a week at the office
Time to lateral: 5 days a week at the office

I bet some firms may offer permanent WFH but I would be shocked if the market follows. I have a feeling salaries would be adjusted and clients may even push back on billable rates if associates are billing from Dayton.

[cisscum]

Best case: 2 days a week at the office
Most likely: 3 days a week at the office
Worst case: 4 days a week at the office
Time to lateral: 5 days a week at the office

I bet some firms may offer permanent WFH but I would be shocked if the market follows. I have a feeling salaries would be adjusted and clients may even push back on billable rates if associates are billing from Dayton.

2 days a week at the office doesn't get you anything. It means you still have to live in the city and you still have to show up even if there's no reason to. I don't think that's the best case but I may be optimistic.

Best case would be you are required to come to the office for X number of days a year but you can choose which days, other than certain practice group or firm events.

And yes, this could mean COL adjustments. Still worth it from my perspective but may not be for others.

[emc91]

Best case: 2 days a week at the office
Most likely: 3 days a week at the office
Worst case: 4 days a week at the office
Time to lateral: 5 days a week at the office

I bet some firms may offer permanent WFH but I would be shocked if the market follows. I have a feeling salaries would be adjusted and clients may even push back on billable rates if associates are billing from Dayton.

2 days a week at the office doesn't get you anything. It means you still have to live in the city and you still have to show up even if there's no reason to. I don't think that's the best case but I may be optimistic.

Best case would be you are required to come to the office for X number of days a year but you can choose which days, other than certain practice group or firm events.

And yes, this could mean COL adjustments. Still worth it from my perspective but may not be for others.

I’m in Texas. Two days a week in the office would allow my spouse and I to buy a bigger home in a better school district. I can’t do an hour commute each way every day, but I’d do it twice a week.

[emc91]

Best case: 2 days a week at the office
Most likely: 3 days a week at the office
Worst case: 4 days a week at the office
Time to lateral: 5 days a week at the office

I bet some firms may offer permanent WFH but I would be shocked if the market follows. I have a feeling salaries would be adjusted and clients may even push back on billable rates if associates are billing from Dayton.

Hell, I’m a junior, and I’ll look to lateral ASAP if we go back five days a week. Now that I’ve experienced WFH, I can’t go back to 5 days a week.

[Anonymous User]

2 days a week at the office doesn't get you anything. It means you still have to live in the city and you still have to show up even if there's no reason to. I don't think that's the best case but I may be optimistic.

Best case would be you are required to come to the office for X number of days a year but you can choose which days, other than certain practice group or firm events.

And yes, this could mean COL adjustments. Still worth it from my perspective but may not be for others.

Even in NYC, the places I am willing to commute from 2x vs 5x a week increase exponentially. I can buy a house, avoid NYC taxes and save 60% of the time I am otherwise saving with full WFH.

I'm all for permanent WFH with in-person firm and practice group events sprinkled in -- I just don't see partners at my firm buying in. I might finally have a reason to lateral if other firms move in this direction though.

[nealric]

Long shot here — but what are the odds that some might be able to live in one state and work in another? I will likely end up in NYC postgrad, and I’m excited and humbled to be working at the firm (V50), but I am not the least bit excited to live there. Being able to stay in my current Midwest state would help my QOL tremendously.

I think the odds are pretty slim that NYC biglaw is going to start allowing 100% remote employees post-COVID. For one, it's hard to integrate and train a brand new associate without any in-person interaction. For another, remote employees can create tax issues for employers.

My V10 firm already has a tax presence in other states. I don't think the tax issues are a big deal (if the tech companies can deal with it the law firms can). Bigger issue might be UPL which I have no insight into.

I think you are underestimating how many NYC lawyers do not want to go back to NYC or even stay within commuting distance. I agree that juniors are better off with some facetime, but a lot of mid-level and seniors are not going to want to go back on a regular basis and firms will need to accommodate these people as well or they will lose talent.

It's a bit harder for law firms because they are structured as partnerships for tax purposes rather than C-corps. Of course it can be done, but some firms may not want to allow it.

[Anonymous User]

Long shot here — but what are the odds that some might be able to live in one state and work in another? I will likely end up in NYC postgrad, and I’m excited and humbled to be working at the firm (V50), but I am not the least bit excited to live there. Being able to stay in my current Midwest state would help my QOL tremendously.

I think the odds are pretty slim that NYC biglaw is going to start allowing 100% remote employees post-COVID. For one, it's hard to integrate and train a brand new associate without any in-person interaction. For another, remote employees can create tax issues for employers.

My V10 firm already has a tax presence in other states. I don't think the tax issues are a big deal (if the tech companies can deal with it the law firms can). Bigger issue might be UPL which I have no insight into.

I think you are underestimating how many NYC lawyers do not want to go back to NYC or even stay within commuting distance. I agree that juniors are better off with some facetime, but a lot of mid-level and seniors are not going to want to go back on a regular basis and firms will need to accommodate these people as well or they will lose talent.

It's a bit harder for law firms because they are structured as partnerships for tax purposes rather than C-corps. Of course it can be done, but some firms may not want to allow it.

Would what firms did this summer be an indication on whether they'd be willing to do this or not? I summered at a V20 and I did my summer in a middle of nowhere flyover state and they had me fill out that states tax forms and everything. Whereas I had a friend summer at a large firm that doesn't have as many offices and they had to relocate to certain states for the summer in order to be paid.

[Anonymous User]

Long shot here — but what are the odds that some might be able to live in one state and work in another? I will likely end up in NYC postgrad, and I’m excited and humbled to be working at the firm (V50), but I am not the least bit excited to live there. Being able to stay in my current Midwest state would help my QOL tremendously.

I think the odds are pretty slim that NYC biglaw is going to start allowing 100% remote employees post-COVID. For one, it's hard to integrate and train a brand new associate without any in-person interaction. For another, remote employees can create tax issues for employers.

My V10 firm already has a tax presence in other states. I don't think the tax issues are a big deal (if the tech companies can deal with it the law firms can). Bigger issue might be UPL which I have no insight into.

I think you are underestimating how many NYC lawyers do not want to go back to NYC or even stay within commuting distance. I agree that juniors are better off with some facetime, but a lot of mid-level and seniors are not going to want to go back on a regular basis and firms will need to accommodate these people as well or they will lose talent.

It's a bit harder for law firms because they are structured as partnerships for tax purposes rather than C-corps. Of course it can be done, but some firms may not want to allow it.

Would what firms did this summer be an indication on whether they'd be willing to do this or not? I summered at a V20 and I did my summer in a middle of nowhere flyover state and they had me fill out that states tax forms and everything. Whereas I had a friend summer at a large firm that doesn't have as many offices and they had to relocate to certain states for the summer in order to be paid.

My NY v5 didn’t even ask associates where they are and I know for a fact that a majority of my group at all levels left New York for at least several months of the year. They attributed all non-client site work to the New York office so that might have been a part of it. I doubt they would have done this if this created a tax problem.