C/O 2014 NLJ 250 Numbers Forum

[jbagelboy]

GULC has problems like a lot of other schools. GULC students take a risk like any other law school students except for YHS. Is GULC's risk somehow at a point where it hits some arbitrary line and crosses the threshold into 'dumpster fire?' I don't think so, but maybe we just define terms differently and agree on the substantive problems.

No. I don't know why people think this way. It's definitely a sliding scale from Yale on down to Georgetown, not some staggered binary from three schools to the rest. Georgetown students take significantly more "risk", often for more debt, than Chicago or Columbia students (among others) for whom striking out due to placement in the class is not a legitimate fear. At Georgetown this "risk" afflicts more than 200 students, and that's being generous with your government self-select figures.

That being said, the GULC broken record bashers and apologists just have to stop. Both sides. It's getting really annoying now. Please.

[Cobretti]

NYC to 190

[JCougar]

I'd just like to add this, and then I'll be finished:

http://chronicle.com/article/How-Elite- ... re/141103/

This has nothing to do with Georgetown being on the low end of the T14. This is a real problem, in that even the Georgetown students that don't "strike out" and turn down OCI for FedGov/PI jobs end up costing society a large sum of money. So other than the insane number of transfers, stingy scholarships, etc., it's totally legitimate if criticism is directed at possibly America's #1 unrepayable-debt-creating school.

That's nice lawyerese. After Georgetown bears the "lowest possible cost," the "heavy lifting" left for taxpayers is $158,888 per student. That is, by our estimate, the average amount of debt a Georgetown Loan Repayment Assistance Program participant stands to walk away from under income-based repayment. Compare that to what the federal government provides as a maximum Pell Grant benefit of about $34,000 over six years for low-income undergraduate students.(As of February 2013, there were 245 participants in the Georgetown program.)

[Anonymous User]

GULCer chiming in:

Obviously, we take way too many students, way too many transfers. That being said, I have multiple (4 or 5) friend well below median that scored biglaw from here. I also know people in the top 3rd who have nothing. I figure we'll have something close to 50% in big law or clerkships. I also know of lots lots lots lots of kids who are PD/DA/NonProfit gunners who decided to forego EIW.

Jcougar's the sky is falling, everyone who goes to law school is gonna get AIDS and die is annoying and wrong. Literally all of my friends have a job except those that forewent EiW.

BigZuck has always been anti-GULC. I think b/c of how admissions/finaid treated him if i remember correctly. Either way, he's been bitter as hell since then. Georgetown is big, pretty expensive, but so far it's been great to me and most of the people I know.

Mistanthrope is a MFer who should be banned for that PM.

[BigZuck]

GULCer chiming in:

Obviously, we take way too many students, way too many transfers. That being said, I have multiple (4 or 5) friend well below median that scored biglaw from here. I also know people in the top 3rd who have nothing. I figure we'll have something close to 50% in big law or clerkships. I also know of lots lots lots lots of kids who are PD/DA/NonProfit gunners who decided to forego EIW.

Jcougar's the sky is falling, everyone who goes to law school is gonna get AIDS and die is annoying and wrong. Literally all of my friends have a job except those that forewent EiW.

BigZuck has always been anti-GULC. I think b/c of how admissions/finaid treated him if i remember correctly. Either way, he's been bitter as hell since then. Georgetown is big, pretty expensive, but so far it's been great to me and most of the people I know.

Mistanthrope is a MFer who should be banned for that PM.

You did it! You cracked the code! It was sour grapes this whole time!

You forgot to checkmate PiKap as well:

I agree with this. It's obviously a great school. Hell, I almost went there but for the awful (read: nonexistent) scholarship package. Got way more at higher ranked schools and they wouldn't budge

My feelings toward GULC have nothing to do with their degree millyness, or their Dean shadiness, or their adcom lulziness, or their perpetual mission to lay waste to hundreds of kids' financial futures year over year over year. It's just that I got stiffed and could never let it go.

If I never heard the word "Cornblatt" again it would be too soon. Damn you GULC, you could have been mine!

[BigZuck]

Seriously though guys, respect Bags' request please

[OneMoreLawHopeful]

Anon actually makes a pretty good point re:BigZuck's relationship with GULC.

In his own words:

Since I didn't even get the 45K I was speculating about I went ahead and withdrew. I think I was one of about two TLSers who defended GULC through this whole process and would have actually considered attending (at a resonable price of course). Considering I jumped through all their hoops and gave them heartfelt responses and the fact that I have been accepted to higher ranked schools with superior employment prospects with $$ I can't help but feel a bit slighted. Oh well. I don't really see most of the people who got offered money yesterday attending either. As I said before I'm sure they will have no shortage of people lining up to pay sticker. But it will be interesting to see what the number composition of the class will be after all the dust settles this cycle. 168 median at best, maybe even a 167?

GL the rest of the way for those of you still waiting on a decision and/or money.

But hey, I guess he would have kept defending them if only they'd recognized how heartfelt his responses truly were...

[BigZuck]

CHECKMATE

[rpupkin]

ITT: BigZuck outed as scorned GULC lover.

This changes everything.

[BigZuck]

ITT: BigZuck outed as scorned GULC lover.

This changes everything.

Hopefully no one digs up my post complaining about getting 54K at Michigan and them refusing to negotiate with a Cornell offer

Brb, gotta go period out my posts

[JCougar]

Jcougar's the sky is falling, everyone who goes to law school is gonna get AIDS and die is annoying and wrong. Literally all of my friends have a job except those that forewent EiW.

Either you are friends with a disproportionately successful group of people, or your class is doing better than those in the past:

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/gulc/2013/

Take away the school funded jobs, and GULC only has a 72% employment score total and a 46.5% large firm + clerkship score. This is for c/o 2013, so I realize things could be a little better these days. But that's an awful lot of people who are debt-pwned.

[BigZuck]

Jcougar's the sky is falling, everyone who goes to law school is gonna get AIDS and die is annoying and wrong. Literally all of my friends have a job except those that forewent EiW.

Either you are friends with a disproportionately successful group of people, or your class is doing better than those in the past:

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/gulc/2013/

Take away the school funded jobs, and GULC only has a 72% employment score total and a 46.5% large firm + clerkship score. This is for c/o 2013, so I realize things could be a little better these days. But that's an awful lot of people who are debt-pwned.

"Self-selection!"

+

"This is the year everything turns around just you wait!"

Let them be Coogs

You and I are just bitter. They're right. It's over man. We're done.

NYC is going to 190. It's been confirmed. Let's talk about that instead.

[cookiejar1]

Can we also make fun of Michigan?

[BigZuck]

Can we also make fun of Michigan?

[JCougar]

NYC is going to 190. It's been confirmed. Let's talk about that instead.

Funny, because I just saw a post on ATL about Columbia's tuition eclipsing $60,000, and is now the most expensive school in the country. And there was this interesting response:

Unemployed_Northeastern • 9 hours ago

2006 metrics:
NYC Biglaw market rate: $160k
CLS tuition: $38k

2015 metrics:
NYC Biglaw market rate: $160k
CLS tuition: $60k

No one's getting any more out of a Columbia degree today than they were in 2006. The tuition/rankings arms race screws everybody.

[runthetrap1990]

NYC is going to 190. It's been confirmed. Let's talk about that instead.

Funny, because I just saw a post on ATL about Columbia's tuition eclipsing $60,000, and is now the most expensive school in the country. And there was this interesting response:

Unemployed_Northeastern • 9 hours ago

2006 metrics:
NYC Biglaw market rate: $160k
CLS tuition: $38k

2015 metrics:
NYC Biglaw market rate: $160k
CLS tuition: $60k

No one's getting any more out of a Columbia degree today than they were in 2006. The tuition/rankings arms race screws everybody.

That's depressing.

[jbagelboy]

NYC is going to 190. It's been confirmed. Let's talk about that instead.

Funny, because I just saw a post on ATL about Columbia's tuition eclipsing $60,000, and is now the most expensive school in the country. And there was this interesting response:

Unemployed_Northeastern • 9 hours ago

2006 metrics:
NYC Biglaw market rate: $160k
CLS tuition: $38k

2015 metrics:
NYC Biglaw market rate: $160k
CLS tuition: $60k

No one's getting any more out of a Columbia degree today than they were in 2006. The tuition/rankings arms race screws everybody.

That's depressing.

It's very depressing.

At least at these top schools they aren't getting less, which is better than you can say for the vast majority of law schools that are far less able to gainfully employ their graduates than pre-recession.

[Desert Fox]

NYC is going to 190. It's been confirmed. Let's talk about that instead.

Funny, because I just saw a post on ATL about Columbia's tuition eclipsing $60,000, and is now the most expensive school in the country. And there was this interesting response:

Unemployed_Northeastern • 9 hours ago

2006 metrics:
NYC Biglaw market rate: $160k
CLS tuition: $38k

2015 metrics:
NYC Biglaw market rate: $160k
CLS tuition: $60k

No one's getting any more out of a Columbia degree today than they were in 2006. The tuition/rankings arms race screws everybody.

That's depressing.

Now correct for inflation and smaller bonuses today. It's way worse.

[rpupkin]

Unemployed_Northeastern • 9 hours ago

2006 metrics:
NYC Biglaw market rate: $160k
CLS tuition: $38k

2015 metrics:
NYC Biglaw market rate: $160k
CLS tuition: $60k

No one's getting any more out of a Columbia degree today than they were in 2006. The tuition/rankings arms race screws everybody.

Wrong. An extra $22k/yr is a small price to pay for nicer library chairs and for enabling law school to lure tax prof from UVA. #thankyouusnwr

[JCougar]

Now correct for inflation and smaller bonuses today. It's way worse.

And given the way rent is skyrocketing in NYC and elsewhere, COL both during school and while trying to pay off your BigLoans as an associate is probably significantly higher.

Edit: I guess that's covered by inflation, but I think rent in NYC is probably way worse than general inflation.

[Tiago Splitter]

We're about where we were in 1999. Which means we've got three raises coming in the next 8 years mark it down

[Johann]

NYC is going to 190. It's been confirmed. Let's talk about that instead.

Funny, because I just saw a post on ATL about Columbia's tuition eclipsing $60,000, and is now the most expensive school in the country. And there was this interesting response:

Unemployed_Northeastern • 9 hours ago

2006 metrics:
NYC Biglaw market rate: $160k
CLS tuition: $38k

2015 metrics:
NYC Biglaw market rate: $160k
CLS tuition: $60k

No one's getting any more out of a Columbia degree today than they were in 2006. The tuition/rankings arms race screws everybody.

That's depressing.

Now correct for inflation and smaller bonuses today. It's way worse.

Also higher tax rates today, and the trend is going even more in that direction.

[JCougar]

Also higher tax rates today, and the trend is going even more in that direction.

Well, somebody's got to pay for all the debt that gets forgiven from the people who don't get biglaw at all. By process of elimination, it's going to be the people that get Biglaw.

Also, I think it's hilarious that the tight market and even hiring freeze at some agencies is only going to make this problem worse 10 years from now.

It's hard to wrap your head around how much fallout there's going to be when this forgiveness starts coming due. My rough, back-of-the-envelope calculation of the debt-that-won't-be-repaid generated just by Georgetown Law over 10 years was about $1 Billion. But throw in all the other TTTs? And then all the Vet schools, MSWs, pharmacy school grads, etc. If you can't see the disaster right now, you are willfully blind. Which makes me wonder why this continues. Is this just a back-door way to stimulate an economy that is otherwise being hollowed out at the core, and where it is impossible to pass a national infrastructure bill that creates real jobs? Another "let's sacrifice the future to stimulate the present" and "we'll clean up the mess when we get there" kind of deal?

I used to feel a deep personal responsibility about repaying my loan debt. It made bearing it a lot worse. I no longer care, because this is all a big joke/mess enabled by the people I owe money to. Not paying a dime more than the minimum I am required to each year.

[Desert Fox]

I thought taxes are the same

[Tiago Splitter]

It's hard to wrap your head around how much fallout there's going to be when this forgiveness starts coming due. My rough, back-of-the-envelope calculation of the debt-that-won't-be-repaid generated just by Georgetown Law over 10 years was about $1 Billion. But throw in all the other TTTs? And then all the Vet schools, MSWs, pharmacy school grads, etc.

Is it real money though? The government is currently making money on student loans, and it does so despite paying for everything up front and taking in payments down the line. The forgiveness at the end of the road is just wiping away a fake receivable that I don't think gets counted anywhere anyway. But I'd be curious to see a better explanation of how they account for this stuff if someone has one.