I got Biglaw from T2 AND YOU CAN TOO Forum

[OneMoreLawHopeful]

After 7 pages of bickering the only thing I took away from this thread is that OMLH suffers from self-serving bias, Johann might be an actual retarded person, and 0Ls are really bad with statistics.

You know I never actually advocated going to a T1/T2 for the vast majority of students, right? The only position I ever took was to say "If you are very passionate about being a lawyer but didn't get into a t14, retaking is not an option and/or not going to help, and you are both fully informed of the risks involved and able to tolerate said risk, then it MIGHT make sense to go for 1 semester, but be prepared to drop out afterwards if you don't get the grades you need."

First of all, you'd need at least two semesters to know if you have any real shot at desirable employment, especially because many schools (mine included) make you pay for 2nd semester tuition before 1st semester grades come out. Also, basically nobody has the actual self-discipline to drop out after a year, a point which has been discussed elsewhere.

Separately, your statement here isn't all that controversial. It's markedly more tempered as compared to your assertion in page 2 that TLS conventional wisdom isn't always right and "sometimes large risks pay off." That's what I take issue with - the idea that just because you beat the odds, the odds are somehow wrong. That type of self-serving statement can be dangerous to special snowflake 0Ls who think that beating the odds is a realistic goal when it clearly isn't.

All that said, you're nowhere near as bad as Lawhopeful, who apparently believes 100% of his success can be attributed to his hard work and bootstrappin' attitude.

I don't know what your school's policy has to do with this. I never said to pick a school indiscriminately, and clearly "be prepared to drop out," should include some investigation of tuition refund (and scholarship repayment) policies. At best you're complaining about a topic I never mentioned.

Also, I'm unclear on how the phrase "sometimes large risks pay off" is equivalent to "the odds are wrong." Describing the situation as a "large risk" inherently acknowledges that the odds are real. Again, this just seems like bickering over an argument I'm not actually making. I get that you have a desire to help 0Ls, but you're beating up a strawman here.

[Johann]

Also there is a big difference between predicting success at a T2/T3 compared to a T14. The work ethic and aptitude at a T2 or T3 is far less consistent. Putting in a 40 hour week all but guarantees top 25% especially if your gpa or lsat is above the 75th.

Even if all that is true, if the goal is Biglaw from a T2 then I'm not sure that just being in the top 25% is going to do a whole lot for you. You'll probably still be left out in the cold unless you have some other factors really working in your favor.

Most people going to T2 or T3 never had ambitions of biglaw. They want to be a lawyer and have a life at the same time. Again, something you know nothing about and are just assuming when you have no first hand knowledge. Nobody at these schools can even pronounce Dechert or Perkins Coie.

[patogordo]

well you know what they say, "a hard cap on your income and constantly having to make up fake deferment excuses to stay above water is the key to happiness"

[BigZuck]

Also there is a big difference between predicting success at a T2/T3 compared to a T14. The work ethic and aptitude at a T2 or T3 is far less consistent. Putting in a 40 hour week all but guarantees top 25% especially if your gpa or lsat is above the 75th.

Even if all that is true, if the goal is Biglaw from a T2 then I'm not sure that just being in the top 25% is going to do a whole lot for you. You'll probably still be left out in the cold unless you have some other factors really working in your favor.

Most people going to T2 or T3 never had ambitions of biglaw. They want to be a lawyer and have a life at the same time. Again, something you know nothing about and are just assuming when you have no first hand knowledge. Nobody at these schools can even pronounce Dechert or Perkins Coie.

My B, thought this thread was "I got Biglaw from T2 AND YOU CAN TOO"

What good is getting into the top 25% going to do for someone at a T2/T3 then? Since you brought it up, seems like you thought that distinction was significant.

[pancakes3]

The idea that I personally do not condone/understand/know people who pay sticker for T2/T3 schools with no ambitions of biglaw is not a defensible position.

[hoos89]

Also there is a big difference between predicting success at a T2/T3 compared to a T14. The work ethic and aptitude at a T2 or T3 is far less consistent. Putting in a 40 hour week all but guarantees top 25% especially if your gpa or lsat is above the 75th.

I have to admit, this is totally second/third-hand anecdotal, but I've heard that TTTs can be the most cutthroat schools because everyone knows you need to be top 5% or whatever for any chance at a solid-paying job.

[patogordo]

if you have gpa/lsat above 75th at a TTT you're probably on scholarship and getting section stacked with all the other scholarship people so you may as well have gone to a better school

[Johann]

Also there is a big difference between predicting success at a T2/T3 compared to a T14. The work ethic and aptitude at a T2 or T3 is far less consistent. Putting in a 40 hour week all but guarantees top 25% especially if your gpa or lsat is above the 75th.

Even if all that is true, if the goal is Biglaw from a T2 then I'm not sure that just being in the top 25% is going to do a whole lot for you. You'll probably still be left out in the cold unless you have some other factors really working in your favor.

Most people going to T2 or T3 never had ambitions of biglaw. They want to be a lawyer and have a life at the same time. Again, something you know nothing about and are just assuming when you have no first hand knowledge. Nobody at these schools can even pronounce Dechert or Perkins Coie.

My B, thought this thread was "I got Biglaw from T2 AND YOU CAN TOO"

What good is getting into the top 25% going to do for someone at a T2/T3 then? Since you brought it up, seems like you thought that distinction was significant.

True. Biglaw or bust is not smart to attend t2 but there are still people not in top 10 in biglaw. One just sold his firm and lateralled into secondary big law. Ip got got secondary biglaw. Another worked in boutique two years and is interviewing biglaw now. Another at median got midlaw. There's clearly a huge information gap here with what people think t2 or t3 ourcomes are verse actual.

[BigZuck]

So in other words they have some other factors really working in their favor?

I know first hand how hard it is for schmo-y bros in that GPA range to get big law from UT. I can only imagine what it would be like from a T2/T3. And lets be real, most people in law school are a part of the unwashed schmo-y masses, BIG PASSION be damned.

[jbagelboy]

For clarity, this is my viewpoint. This forum is made up of middle class and upper middle class or rich people. Everyone's background here dictates their opinion. And for these people, yes law school is a scam and a ripoff in most cases and your wisdom is absolutely right to buy the prep books and all that and just do compsci or nursing or engineering. I'm middle class as we'll but because my dad is dirt cheap I grew up in a poor area and all my friends and all my high school did what society told them to do - college. For the most part these people live the same neighborhood they grew up in despite college. They have no connections. They have no job other than a gas station clerk or best buy salesman or public school teacher (they make 28k where I'm from) or nature warden of public land. They have never had the advantage of buying prep books or taking classes or being able to take a year off and study. They worked 30 hours a week in college. They have credit card debt of 10k because of whatever life. They have student loan debt from college. Their undergrad gpas are set in stone at 2.5 or whatever because they worked and goofed off when they didn't work like most ppl can do because they don't work. For them to just give up and take this shit job is the most classist thing I've ever heard argued from a fairly liberal forum. If 10 of these people go to law school and one makes it big law that is huge. If 5 become lawyers and have a good life you're talking about changing someone's complete life trajectory. A chance to start a new life where you aren't living paycheck to paycheck never going on a vacation hoping to win the lottery with your dollar scratch off. Yeah you guys don't understand this is who goes to the schools ranked 50-150. And they absolutely should be. Telling them to keep living in their small town with whatever bs 30k job they have after a college degree (already in student debt) so they don't experience the torture of having a sum of money hang over their heads that affects their day to day lives way less than actual shit work. Yeah you guys are selfish as fuck or you just can't understand the target audience that absolutely benefits ( in the aggregate because at worst they are back to square 1) from these schools.

Actually a lot of the posters here are or at least grew up disenfranchised and there's a fair amount of aggression/antipathy towards the financially insensitive or overtly gentrified: note for example the vitriol and sarcasm hurled at 0Ls able and willing to attend at sticker with their parents money to satisfy commercial magazine inferiority complexes. Urbanites over rural? Probably, that's the nature of the internet. I agree there's maybe been a trend towards upper middle class values since I started posting but broadly speaking this isn't even an accurate portrayal of the forum, your cliche diatribe aside.

Also you're clearly 100% duped. My condolences

[03152016]

yeah i thought that post was off base, as i said before
we're not all rich snobby elites
we're not all even middle class

[ManoftheHour]

So in other words they have some other factors really working in their favor?

I know first hand how hard it is for schmo-y bros in that GPA range to get big law from UT. I can only imagine what it would be like from a T2/T3. And lets be real, most people in law school are a part of the unwashed schmo-y masses, BIG PASSION be damned.

lol, I don't get what people mean when they say, "Law is my passion" or "I have a love for the law." I'm like...uh, no. Basketball/soccer/playing bass guitar is my passion.

[03152016]

yeah that's usually a silly rationale
though i do know a few people who are actually legit passionate about law
i wish i could convince myself i was the same to make this whole ls thing more palatable

[Anonymous User]

Fuck you. From someone who finished top 3% at a T1 regional school this idea that I got lucky is fucking insulting. I worked to get good at law school exams and new going in my skill set was perfect for exams. My only low grade was legal writing which wasn't an exam. Luck had nothing to do with it and you seem salty as shit for thinking that's what it was.

You're kind of missing the point. Nobody is arguing that law school grades are randomly assigned. You believed you had a skill set that was good for law school exams, but so did thousands of other law students. You were fortunate in that you turned out to be correct, but most people are not so lucky. Not many people go into law school thinking they will be bad at it; it really is difficult to know for certain whether you will be good at it or not. For every person (like you) who was correct, 10 were not.

Also, there's always some luck involved no matter how good your skill set. All it takes is ONE shitty professor to give you a C or ONE family member to fall ill or ONE untimely breakup or ONE serious illness to totally throw your shit off. IF you happen to have been among the relatively few people who correctly surmised that you were good at law school exams AND you don't have things beyond your control go wrong during the two semesters/exam periods that actually matter, then yeah I'd say you're fairly lucky. Of course there is more to the equation than blind luck, but to suggest that luck had NOTHING to do with it is just ridiculous.

Also, you are more or less insinuating that other people didn't work to get good at law school exams, which is also insulting. And I promise you that more than 0 people in here taking the opposing view point to you did well in law school. Chalking it up as sour grapes is misguided, and also insulting.

Re: the bolded part above. Is luck a material factor in explaining law school grades?

While there is a degree of randomness involved in law school performance because every student does not go through the same exact law experience, I suspect some top performing students take issue with the idea that luck is a meaningful factor that explains law school performance. Has anybody actually cited a source that suggest top 10% graduates from lower ranking schools face less adversity during law school when compared to their classmates?

I know life happens and I don't mean to shit on other people going through adversity. I had a child in law school; shortly after birth and right before 1L exams, that child was diagnosed with a significant defect that will shave decades off life expectancy and require more and more care for the child as s/he ages. Utterly devastating on an emotional level. Later rounds of devastation would include finances and learning that having more children risked a repeat of the same defect.... I get that some really nasty shit can happen to law students.

Again, I'm not trying to make light of what other people go through. Everybody responds to adversity differently. It's been 4+ years since my child's diagnosis and it still dominates everything in my life.

To be clear, not defending the idea that students can completely control their law school outcomes or that going to a lower ranked school is a good idea.

[glitter178]

For clarity, this is my viewpoint. This forum is made up of middle class and upper middle class or rich people. Everyone's background here dictates their opinion. And for these people, yes law school is a scam and a ripoff in most cases and your wisdom is absolutely right to buy the prep books and all that and just do compsci or nursing or engineering. I'm middle class as we'll but because my dad is dirt cheap I grew up in a poor area and all my friends and all my high school did what society told them to do - college. For the most part these people live the same neighborhood they grew up in despite college. They have no connections. They have no job other than a gas station clerk or best buy salesman or public school teacher (they make 28k where I'm from) or nature warden of public land. They have never had the advantage of buying prep books or taking classes or being able to take a year off and study. They worked 30 hours a week in college. They have credit card debt of 10k because of whatever life. They have student loan debt from college. Their undergrad gpas are set in stone at 2.5 or whatever because they worked and goofed off when they didn't work like most ppl can do because they don't work. For them to just give up and take this shit job is the most classist thing I've ever heard argued from a fairly liberal forum. If 10 of these people go to law school and one makes it big law that is huge. If 5 become lawyers and have a good life you're talking about changing someone's complete life trajectory. A chance to start a new life where you aren't living paycheck to paycheck never going on a vacation hoping to win the lottery with your dollar scratch off. Yeah you guys don't understand this is who goes to the schools ranked 50-150. And they absolutely should be. Telling them to keep living in their small town with whatever bs 30k job they have after a college degree (already in student debt) so they don't experience the torture of having a sum of money hang over their heads that affects their day to day lives way less than actual shit work. Yeah you guys are selfish as fuck or you just can't understand the target audience that absolutely benefits ( in the aggregate because at worst they are back to square 1) from these schools.

*raises hand.*

Grew up poor in a dirt poor rural area. Worked through high school and college (a state college, mind you, where tuition was dirt cheap and working extra hours/ shifts sometimes allowed me to pay some of my tuition out of pocket). Graduated with a 3.87, even working 30+ hours a week. Fortunately even my humble little hilljack self had heard of a little thing called GOOGLE, which led me to TLS, where one of my first posts was asking what I should do with a 154 LSAT considering my GPA. Long story short, I took the LSAT again and got about a 50% scholarship to a T20. Was it a rough route to get there? Yes. Did my friends and family (none of whom have college degrees) disagree with my decision to work an extra year, retake the LSAT, and apply the next cycle? Yes. They all told me I was an idiot. I didn't care, because they weren't the ones signing on the promissory note line.

Things have worked out the way I wanted them to (so far), and I STILL think about how lucky I am and how things could have gone a bad way.

(btw, IMO speaking on behalf of an entire socioeconomic class and saying they are pretty much capping out at law schools ranked 50-150 is the most classist thing I'VE ever seen on TLS)

[Anonymous User]

1. Paragraphs. Employ them. This shouldn't be a new concept to you. I guess this is the sort of writers that TTTs produce?

Elitism like this makes TLS and law school so nauseating. TLS has been very helpful to me in a lot of ways, but so often advice given here is just a thinly veiled attempt to talk down to others.

Edit: ironically, the sentence should read "this is the sort of writer" or "these are the sorts of writers."

[Mal Reynolds]

1. Paragraphs. Employ them. This shouldn't be a new concept to you. I guess this is the sort of writers that TTTs produce?

Elitism like this makes TLS and law school so nauseating. TLS has been very helpful to me in a lot of ways, but so often advice given here is just a thinly veiled attempt to talk down to others.

Edit: ironically, the sentence should read "this is the sort of writer" or "these are the sorts of writers."

This is very brave of you anon. Post like a man out in the open.

[mr.hands]

1. Paragraphs. Employ them. This shouldn't be a new concept to you. I guess this is the sort of writers that TTTs produce?

Elitism like this makes TLS and law school so nauseating. TLS has been very helpful to me in a lot of ways, but so often advice given here is just a thinly veiled attempt to talk down to others.

Edit: ironically, the sentence should read "this is the sort of writer" or "these are the sorts of writers."

This is very brave of you anon. Post like a man out in the open.

Agreed

[phillywc]

(btw, IMO speaking on behalf of an entire socioeconomic class and saying they are pretty much capping out at law schools ranked 50-150 is the most classist thing I'VE ever seen on TLS)

This, it's pretty fucking offensive.

[Johann]

How to be upper middle class:
Step 1 - deny being middle class.

I will pay each one of you 100 bucks who has posted if you can prove your parents make less than 43k annually cause that is middle class you oblivious tucks.

Fuck it make 1000 that's how confident I am.

[patogordo]

43k HHI as the cap on middle class? is this some dave ramsay shit?

[Johann]

43k median income. Middle colas

[03152016]

is that a serious offer johann

[Flips88]

43k median income. Middle colas

Median individual income is over $50k. Median household income for a family is like $75k.

[patogordo]

yea but you'd have to make less than $43k to scan your parents W2s to some anonymous internet commenter in the hopes that he'll paypal you $100