Fordham OCI CBs and DINGS List Forum

[Anonymous User]

When it comes to actual BigLaw, definited lower than 30%. Don't believe the kool-aid handed out by Career Services. They often include ShitLaw in their stats.

At what point does BigLaw turn into Shitlaw?

[Anonymous User]

3L Here. The CDC employees are notoriously bad at their jobs. Even professors acknowledge it, albeit with excuses. Their advice tends to be no better than what you might find on Google, and, in many cases, is actually worse, e.g. cover letter and resume advice.

Last year it seemed like approximately 80% of 2Ls did not have something lined up for the summer by March. Very few got offers from BigLaw. Most people took positions they had no interest in because they had no other choice. This also does not only apply to the bottom 70%. There were many people with 3.5 GPAs or higher that were in this position.

My advice: Start reaching deep into your network now. As deep as possible, i.e. if you, or someone you know, knows an attorney, get your resume into their hands. Let people know you're in the market. Be proactive. At this point, BigLaw is over; so, aim for firms that are smaller that might not have been here for OCI and also firms in other markets. Also, be creative. It's much harder to get a job by submitting a resume online when it will be put into a stack of 1000 others. Call the recruiters; make them know you.

Whatever you do, do not listen to the CDC when they say that other employers will be here in the Spring. They will not. Last year, (if I remember correctly) there were two (yes, 2) employers that came, and I think they were pretty shitty. You need to start handling this problem (unemployment) now, rather than later.

In good times, Fordham does very well because people in the city like it. In bad times (e.g. now), Fordham does not fair nearly as well, particularly when it drops in the rankings. However, good students with solid resumes will get jobs.

I hate to make this sound gloomy, but it's realistic. Get good grades this semester, apply to firms aggressively, and you might just be ok. If not, you can always try to sue the school for fraud/false advertising...(half kidding).

[Anonymous User]

^ to the above Anon:

Great tip and insight, thank you

[Anonymous User]

The above 3L poster seems a bit bitter, and maybe there wasn't as much awareness when you chose to attend Fordham, but the 2L's now should have known what they were getting themselves into. It seems like almost everyone in the top 10%, most in the top 25%, and 50/50 for those in the top 1/3 got biglaw if they wanted it. Below that, it's a crapshoot.

I will say that since 36.6% of the class of 2013 got biglaw (100+) or Fed Clerkship, (and things have at least not gotten worse since then) I'm guessing more than 20% of the class of 2016 will get summer associate positions in biglaw firms. This will vary over the coming years based on the legal economy, but not based on Fordham's US News Ranking (It's still going to be below the T-14 and above Cardozo).

I agree that CSC is useless, and their salaries would probably be better spent on a tuition reduction, but there really isn't anything magical that they could do besides making sure that you don't bid stupidly.

[Anonymous User]

The above 3L poster seems a bit bitter, and maybe there wasn't as much awareness when you chose to attend Fordham, but the 2L's now should have known what they were getting themselves into. It seems like almost everyone in the top 10%, most in the top 25%, and 50/50 for those in the top 1/3 got biglaw if they wanted it. Below that, it's a crapshoot.

I will say that since 36.6% of the class of 2013 got biglaw (100+) or Fed Clerkship, (and things have at least not gotten worse since then) I'm guessing more than 20% of the class of 2016 will get summer associate positions in biglaw firms. This will vary over the coming years based on the legal economy, but not based on Fordham's US News Ranking (It's still going to be below the T-14 and above Cardozo).

I agree that CSC is useless, and their salaries would probably be better spent on a tuition reduction, but there really isn't anything magical that they could do besides making sure that you don't bid stupidly.

Different 3L here. I agree with assessment of 20% (maybe a bit lower) getting BigLaw. However, disagree as to current 2L's coming in with eyes wide open. Even up to the point of welcoming at Admitted Students Day, the school was still trying to convince us to choose Fordham over a T14 (I recorded the speech on my iPhone).. I got lucky last year, but more than 80% of my friends struck out. 2 of them are now driving a cab for side money, kicking themselves because they could have chosen to go to Michigan or Cornell. Even in 1L Torts, we learn the line where mere puffing crosses into downright misrepresentation. In conclusion, I like the school and most of my professors, but I hate the admissions and recruiting people for what they almost did to me. On behalf of my friends, fuck'em.

And, as far as us being above Cardozo in USNews ranking, it's not so relevant since ShitLaw doesn't focus so much on school or GPA. We're all lumped in the same boat.

[Anonymous User]

I'm just curious about if less than 20% of the class gets biglaw through OCI, then how does 35-40% end up in biglaw after graduation? I've been under the impression that OCI was the best chance for people to get biglaw, but are you saying that everyone that strikes out shouldn't give up hope because they have the same chance of getting biglaw through some other method other than OCI?

[Anonymous User]

I'm just curious about if less than 20% of the class gets biglaw through OCI, then how does 35-40% end up in biglaw after graduation? I've been under the impression that OCI was the best chance for people to get biglaw, but are you saying that everyone that strikes out shouldn't give up hope because they have the same chance of getting biglaw through some other method other than OCI?

The 20% figure is the total number of grads gettting biglaw, meaning associate positions with at least a viable partnership-track route.. Nowadays, that 35-40% your're quoting is pure fantasy, the kool-aid that recruiting and admissions feeds you. To their credit, a number of grads do end up at the biglaw and midlaw firms, but these are generally non-partnership track contract positions for doc review, with pay in the $70K-$80k range. St5ill, in this economy, a lot of people would take these temp positions, even without little hope of "upgrading" to an associate position.

These shitlaw psotions (at biglaw firms) are what CDC uses to pad its figures. Not trying to dump on our school, but I feel that we do ourselves and future OL's a disservice to continue to delude ourselves as to our status in the legal food chain, instead of prepping for the best way to market ourselves the job search.

[Anonymous User]

I'm just curious about if less than 20% of the class gets biglaw through OCI, then how does 35-40% end up in biglaw after graduation? I've been under the impression that OCI was the best chance for people to get biglaw, but are you saying that everyone that strikes out shouldn't give up hope because they have the same chance of getting biglaw through some other method other than OCI?

The 20% figure is the total number of grads gettting biglaw, meaning associate positions with at least a viable partnership-track route.. Nowadays, that 35-40% your're quoting is pure fantasy, the kool-aid that recruiting and admissions feeds you. To their credit, a number of grads do end up at the biglaw and midlaw firms, but these are generally non-partnership track contract positions for doc review, with pay in the $70K-$80k range. St5ill, in this economy, a lot of people would take these temp positions, even without little hope of "upgrading" to an associate position.

These shitlaw psotions (at biglaw firms) are what CDC uses to pad its figures. Not trying to dump on our school, but I feel that we do ourselves and future OL's a disservice to continue to delude ourselves as to our status in the legal food chain, instead of prepping for the best way to market ourselves the job search.

Jesus this thread is heated

[OperaSoprano]

You can settle the debate, as to class of 2013, with some outside statistics. If you google the NLJ "Go-To Law Schools" employment survey, the NLJ reports that Fordham placed 24.53% of its graduates in NLJ 250 firms for c/o 2013. This made Fordham 19th out of all law schools in biglaw placement. These numbers may not be exact, but they offer a helpful barometer from an outside source. I would venture from all I have heard that this year's class did the same or slightly better, perhaps in the 25-30% range.

And of course this does not account for people happily engaged in government or public interest work (the majority of my friends in 2012 when I graduated, though to be fair most of us found our fellowships and jobs in the months after we graduated and took the bar).

[Anonymous User]

You can settle the debate, as to class of 2013, with some outside statistics. If you google the NLJ "Go-To Law Schools" employment survey, the NLJ reports that Fordham placed 24.53% of its graduates in NLJ 250 firms for c/o 2013. This made Fordham 19th out of all law schools in biglaw placement. These numbers may not be exact, but they offer a helpful barometer from an outside source. I would venture from all I have heard that this year's class did the same or slightly better, perhaps in the 25-30% range.

And of course this does not account for people happily engaged in government or public interest work (the majority of my friends in 2012 when I graduated, though to be fair most of us found our fellowships and jobs in the months after we graduated and took the bar).

Okay, but percentage still way below the picture that admissions and CDC painted for us at Admitted Students Day. BTW, I think NLJ250 includes midlaw firms. I was relying on this article:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... Q_7DxbiU8A
Don't know where Fordham is on t6his list, but read for yourself.

[OperaSoprano]

You can settle the debate, as to class of 2013, with some outside statistics. If you google the NLJ "Go-To Law Schools" employment survey, the NLJ reports that Fordham placed 24.53% of its graduates in NLJ 250 firms for c/o 2013. This made Fordham 19th out of all law schools in biglaw placement. These numbers may not be exact, but they offer a helpful barometer from an outside source. I would venture from all I have heard that this year's class did the same or slightly better, perhaps in the 25-30% range.

And of course this does not account for people happily engaged in government or public interest work (the majority of my friends in 2012 when I graduated, though to be fair most of us found our fellowships and jobs in the months after we graduated and took the bar).

Okay, but percentage still way below the picture that admissions and CDC painted for us at Admitted Students Day. BTW, I think NLJ250 includes midlaw firms. I was relying on this article:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... Q_7DxbiU8A
Don't know where Fordham is on t6his list, but read for yourself.

That is the same survey from a year previous (c/o 2012, my class). I agree it is true that CDC pads employment numbers (an unfortunate problem at most schools), which is why students have to rely on outside surveys and speaking with alumni to corroborate. It has varied a lot from year to year-- one year before the recession Fordham hit 43% NLJ 250. It was half that or less in the worst years, and now slowly climbing back. It is crucial to do your research insofar as you can from independent sources. There are awesome jobs outside of biglaw-- nearly my whole circle of law school friends are employed in meaningful non-OCI work (PI, city and state govt for most of us).

[Anonymous User]

You can settle the debate, as to class of 2013, with some outside statistics. If you google the NLJ "Go-To Law Schools" employment survey, the NLJ reports that Fordham placed 24.53% of its graduates in NLJ 250 firms for c/o 2013. This made Fordham 19th out of all law schools in biglaw placement. These numbers may not be exact, but they offer a helpful barometer from an outside source. I would venture from all I have heard that this year's class did the same or slightly better, perhaps in the 25-30% range.

And of course this does not account for people happily engaged in government or public interest work (the majority of my friends in 2012 when I graduated, though to be fair most of us found our fellowships and jobs in the months after we graduated and took the bar).

Okay, but percentage still way below the picture that admissions and CDC painted for us at Admitted Students Day. BTW, I think NLJ250 includes midlaw firms. I was relying on this article:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... Q_7DxbiU8A
Don't know where Fordham is on t6his list, but read for yourself.

That is the same survey from a year previous (c/o 2012, my class). I agree it is true that CDC pads employment numbers (an unfortunate problem at most schools), which is why students have to rely on outside surveys and speaking with alumni to corroborate. It has varied a lot from year to year-- one year before the recession Fordham hit 43% NLJ 250. It was half that or less in the worst years, and now slowly climbing back. It is crucial to do your research insofar as you can from independent sources. There are awesome jobs outside of biglaw-- nearly my whole circle of law school friends are employed in meaningful non-OCI work (PI, city and state govt for most of us).

PI, city and state govt pay shit...nobody wants those jobs.

[Anonymous User]

You can settle the debate, as to class of 2013, with some outside statistics. If you google the NLJ "Go-To Law Schools" employment survey, the NLJ reports that Fordham placed 24.53% of its graduates in NLJ 250 firms for c/o 2013. This made Fordham 19th out of all law schools in biglaw placement. These numbers may not be exact, but they offer a helpful barometer from an outside source. I would venture from all I have heard that this year's class did the same or slightly better, perhaps in the 25-30% range.

And of course this does not account for people happily engaged in government or public interest work (the majority of my friends in 2012 when I graduated, though to be fair most of us found our fellowships and jobs in the months after we graduated and took the bar).

Okay, but percentage still way below the picture that admissions and CDC painted for us at Admitted Students Day. BTW, I think NLJ250 includes midlaw firms. I was relying on this article:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... Q_7DxbiU8A
Don't know where Fordham is on t6his list, but read for yourself.

That is the same survey from a year previous (c/o 2012, my class). I agree it is true that CDC pads employment numbers (an unfortunate problem at most schools), which is why students have to rely on outside surveys and speaking with alumni to corroborate. It has varied a lot from year to year-- one year before the recession Fordham hit 43% NLJ 250. It was half that or less in the worst years, and now slowly climbing back. It is crucial to do your research insofar as you can from independent sources. There are awesome jobs outside of biglaw-- nearly my whole circle of law school friends are employed in meaningful non-OCI work (PI, city and state govt for most of us).

PI, city and state govt pay shit...nobody wants those jobs.

That's obviously untrue.

[Anonymous User]

Just look at the salary difference in the Fordham Employment chart

[Anonymous User]

Just look at the salary difference in the Fordham Employment chart

To be fair, some people go into law school with the intent of PI jobs. Not everyone (although most do) start law school targetting biglaw, not only for the $$$ to pay off debt, but also because they feel the $$$ is a measure of their worth. We all know that the pay graph is bicameral........it's either $160K or $60K....there's very little in between.
Basically, most Fordham grads can look forawrd to targetting shitlaw.....the OCI BigLaw process is merely a diversion.

[Anonymous User]

Just look at the salary difference in the Fordham Employment chart

To be fair, some people go into law school with the intent of PI jobs. Not everyone (although most do) start law school targetting biglaw, not only for the $$$ to pay off debt, but also because they feel the $$$ is a measure of their worth. We all know that the pay graph is bicameral........it's either $160K or $60K....there's very little in between.
Basically, most Fordham grads can look forawrd to targetting shitlaw.....the OCI BigLaw process is merely a diversion.

I disagree..I know many who have already gotten offers for big law.

[Anonymous User]

Just look at the salary difference in the Fordham Employment chart

To be fair, some people go into law school with the intent of PI jobs. Not everyone (although most do) start law school targetting biglaw, not only for the $$$ to pay off debt, but also because they feel the $$$ is a measure of their worth. We all know that the pay graph is bicameral........it's either $160K or $60K....there's very little in between.
Basically, most Fordham grads can look forawrd to targetting shitlaw.....the OCI BigLaw process is merely a diversion.

I disagree..I know many who have already gotten offers for big law.

How are you disagreeing? Even if you know many people with offer, his/her statement is still true if most Fordham grads don't get a biglaw job through OCI.

[Anonymous User]

Just look at the salary difference in the Fordham Employment chart

To be fair, some people go into law school with the intent of PI jobs. Not everyone (although most do) start law school targetting biglaw, not only for the $$$ to pay off debt, but also because they feel the $$$ is a measure of their worth. We all know that the pay graph is bicameral........it's either $160K or $60K....there's very little in between.
Basically, most Fordham grads can look forawrd to targetting shitlaw.....the OCI BigLaw process is merely a diversion.

I disagree..I know many who have already gotten offers for big law.

Statement is meaningless. Assuming that 20% of Fordham's class is about 75-80 people, the fact that you're surrounded by some of these 75-80 people doesn't say anything about the biglaw percentages.

[Anonymous User]

Just look at the salary difference in the Fordham Employment chart

To be fair, some people go into law school with the intent of PI jobs. Not everyone (although most do) start law school targetting biglaw, not only for the $$$ to pay off debt, but also because they feel the $$$ is a measure of their worth. We all know that the pay graph is bicameral........it's either $160K or $60K....there's very little in between.
Basically, most Fordham grads can look forawrd to targetting shitlaw.....the OCI BigLaw process is merely a diversion.

I disagree..I know many who have already gotten offers for big law.

Statement is meaningless. Assuming that 20% of Fordham's class is about 75-80 people, the fact that you're surrounded by some of these 75-80 people doesn't say anything about the biglaw percentages.

Sounds like a load of bitterness in this thread

[OperaSoprano]

I recommend that you take a look at Fordham's numbers on the nonprofit Law School Transparency website for a comparison of how large firm offers have tracked at the school over the past few years. This should be of help in enlightening students and 0Ls.

Also, I am here to stand for the conviction that there are awesome and very coveted jobs outside of biglaw. I'm a civil legal services (PI) staff attorney and love my job, wouldn't trade it for anything. I am enrolled in IBR and public service loan forgiveness to cover my loans.

Best of luck to you guys-- job hunting is the worst, and I won't soon forget what all the waiting was like.)

[Anonymous User]

Annyywayy.... Does anyone know what to expect from E&Y Human Capital? for people interviewing there, are you mainly hoping to do consulting/accounting? i'm interested in E&Y, but more so for tax than "Human Capital."

[Anonymous User]

Annyywayy.... Does anyone know what to expect from E&Y Human Capital? for people interviewing there, are you mainly hoping to do consulting/accounting? i'm interested in E&Y, but more so for tax than "Human Capital."

I looked at the position, but didn't apply because it looks like a Human Resources job. Useful to have a JD in, but only in the sense that you don't want to fire/give people benefits/do anything with employees without someone defusing possible litigation issues. Not the most engaging position in the world, but potentially rewarding and definitely stable.

[Anonymous User]

Human Capital has nothing to do with Human Resources. Human Capital mainly consists of doing individual tax returns for ex-pats (American citizens working in foreign countries)

[Anonymous User]

Human Capital has nothing to do with Human Resources. Human Capital mainly consists of doing individual tax returns for ex-pats (American citizens working in foreign countries)

I was kind of thinking this too. it's not like you'd be hired to go work in "HR" for a company, right? looks like there are also immigration, exec compensation, and compliance issues.