Lawyers tell you how to get no offered. Forum

[09042014]

It's not that my life was ruined by missing biglaw, its specifically that getting no offered made things worse. It made it harder for me to get a job at all. I honestly think things would've turned out better if I had struck out at OCI. Not everyone has that outcome but when it happens, it fucking sucks.

I haven't had to job search with a no offer on my résumé, so I will obviously defer on what that's like, but from what I have seen from 2012/2013 grads, the outcomes are pretty similar no matter the reason the person graduated without an offer.

I understand that the emotional aspect of this is a seriously awful experience. And I am sure it's worse for people who get no offered vs striking out (feeling left behind by their summering cohort, feeling blackballed, less time to reorient yourself, etc). But as for end-of-the-day outcomes, both groups seem to end up with similar gigs (and those outcomes are pretty similar to those of people who exit biglaw early).

As for what you wrote about the nature of no offer stories, and their tendency to grow into tall tales, I think you're right and that it was an insightful post. I just disagree that no offers ruin your life. And if you really feel your life is ruined, I have a therapist I suggest you hire, because that's a distressing additude to have about what's happened.

Up until 4 months ago, I would have agreed. When you have nothing, life is driven by what might have been and the constant reminder of your own failures. Every rejection, every radio silence is another brick in the wall of not being good enough. Finally landing something changes things, but man, it is a tough road until you do.

I know you had an awful uphill battle, but you're not just a no offer success story, you're an NU success story.

It's hard to talk about because of how bad it feels for people, but the result isn't a ruined life, and if that's the mental place anyone is in, they need to get support and possibly therapy before the depression compounds the bad situation into an actually ruined life.

When does the National Geographic Article come out about how Northwestern University turned an Ecino Man into a lawyer.

[rayiner]

I don't fully agree about skipping social events. The firm is trying to evaluate if they want to work with you. If you just huddle in your office and don't meet people, well that is a bad sign.

Disagree completely. It's a sign you will be the department's favorite tyrannical midlevel. Why would firms try to hire social butterflies. They have no use for that skill set.

Regardless of the merit of this evaluation measure, why would anyone skip these events in the first place? Free food, free booze, and social time with summers. I don't get where else anyone thinks they need to be when they're being paid $3100/week to do basically nothing.

I skipped nearly every summer event (at a 100% offer rate firm--I'm not an idiot), because:

1) It's part of the whole stupid pitch where firms pretend like they're sociable places to work when in reality everyone holes up in their office;

2) I had no interest in hanging around a bunch of uptight people on their best behavior.

You're in Manhattan with some money in your pocket and a chill 9-6 job: why would you ever go to a summer event?

[09042014]

I think the one thing we can all agree on: somehow, some way, this is Obama's fucking fault.

I blame Bush for raising loan rates to 8% instead of like 3%

At 3% who gives a fuck how much loans you have.

[bjsesq]

When does the National Geographic Article come out about how Northwestern University turned an Ecino Man into a lawyer.

I never got to give Botwin a picture I drew for her when I graduated.

[Anonymous User]

This may sound like silly advice but don't have a bad attitude. And by this I mean act happy and excited to do every assignment given to you. Some summers don't want to do more of a certain type of work or don't want to be stuck with some boring assignment, and they make these feelings known. Often just be grunting or rolling their eyes. I mean, yeah, it sucks to have to make a chart of cases with a certain type of holding, but the truth is that the stupider and more mindless the assignment, the more likely you're probably actually helping an attorney out by doing it. After all, no one gives real, complex, substantive work to a summer. Summers all the time act like they're above certain types of work and there's no quicker way to earn a piss poor reputation than by acting like that.

Along these lines: don't complain if you're not getting work in [insert dream practice area]. I don't care how much you've dreamed of doing M&A or International Entertainment Law or whatever -- if your firm wants you to do litigation, do litigation. If they want you to do corporate, do corporate. If they want you to do something else, then do whatever that is. There is a 99.99% chance they know more than you do about this, and there's a reason they're giving you a certain type of work and pushing you towards a certain practice area.

do the assignments you get as a summer have any bearing on what you would expect to get as a junior? i think everyone wants to develop the sort of experience that makes them hirable once they are inevitably laid off. if they don't, i don't see why you would ever complain about "boring" work. you're being paid well to be on a team.

[El Pollito]

When does the National Geographic Article come out about how Northwestern University turned an Ecino Man into a lawyer.

I never got to give Botwin a picture I drew for her when I graduated.

I want to make a poster of this for myself.

[bjsesq]

I want to make a poster of this for myself.

It's all yours.

[IAFG]

This may sound like silly advice but don't have a bad attitude. And by this I mean act happy and excited to do every assignment given to you. Some summers don't want to do more of a certain type of work or don't want to be stuck with some boring assignment, and they make these feelings known. Often just be grunting or rolling their eyes. I mean, yeah, it sucks to have to make a chart of cases with a certain type of holding, but the truth is that the stupider and more mindless the assignment, the more likely you're probably actually helping an attorney out by doing it. After all, no one gives real, complex, substantive work to a summer. Summers all the time act like they're above certain types of work and there's no quicker way to earn a piss poor reputation than by acting like that.

Along these lines: don't complain if you're not getting work in [insert dream practice area]. I don't care how much you've dreamed of doing M&A or International Entertainment Law or whatever -- if your firm wants you to do litigation, do litigation. If they want you to do corporate, do corporate. If they want you to do something else, then do whatever that is. There is a 99.99% chance they know more than you do about this, and there's a reason they're giving you a certain type of work and pushing you towards a certain practice area.

do the assignments you get as a summer have any bearing on what you would expect to get as a junior? i think everyone wants to develop the sort of experience that makes them hirable once they are inevitably laid off. if they don't, i don't see why you would ever complain about "boring" work. you're being paid well to be on a team.

Exactly. Who cares if it's 10 pm and someone is yelling at you because going through deal documents for 12 hours straight for the 40th workday in a row was so boring that you fucked up some minor thing and you just want to scream from the meaninglessness of it all. You're being well-compensated.

[Anonymous User]

I was no-offered as a 2L at a small but respected regional firm. The short version is I realized I didn't want to work there with 80% certainty after the first two hours, and with 95% certainty after two weeks. I thus have 10 weeks of experience toward getting no-offered, and here is how I recommend that you do it.

Disclaimer type thing: I know I'll probably get flamed for these activities, which are all true, but let me say a few things in my defense. The day I showed up to work, there was no office/workstation for me. One was set up with an appropriate degree of muttering from support staff. Only a few attorneys acknowledged my existence the first few days (or in general throughout the summer), and there was no lunch to welcome me or anything of the sort. Keep in mind this is a small firm where I was the only SA. There were various restrictive and pointless policy statements for support staff that the attorneys don't have to sign, but I did. There were a few dozen of these types of head-scratchers and various other annoyances. Suffice it to say that I was never made to feel like a professional or feel welcomed or at home, which I attribute to a general level of apathy and unhappiness among the attorneys there.

Now, I am a former blue-collar steelworker and far from a "special snowflake," but I have a certain (admittedly inane) tendency toward vigilante justice that, combined with sensing such a high degree of douchebaggery at the firm, made me want to exact subtle forms of revenge (or, perhaps just give input on their social norms in my own ways) that would nonetheless fall within the bounds of common decency. I'm of the mind that you can't treat someone like a non-professional and expect them to act like a professional. Anyway, here is what you do to get no-offered:

- While working on a normal research assignment (think ~6 pages or less), find some interesting tangential but mostly irrelevant issues to research. Write sections starting with, "In the event that the client does X, then ...." and fully analyze hypotheticals. Thirty hours on Westlaw later, turn in a 19-page memo to a senior partner.

- Be candid with lawyers about why you think they are fucking up their cases. If there is one attorney you really don't like, be sure to ask her about case strategy and then tell her, "Yeah, that's probably not what I would have done" at least once or twice during the summer.

- Tell weekly stories about your happy hour escapades around town. This chaps asses best if you actually do meet important clients or, especially, important potential clients. It also has added effect if you party with attorneys at a competing firm and then tell a partner at your host firm that they, "All seemed like really nice folks."

- Show up at unpredictable times, but generally at least a half-hour later than most of the attorneys arrive. At least once a week, email your assigned assistant from your phone, from bed, at 9:20 a.m. after a night of drinking, to tell her you will be in "by around 10:45."

- Keep in mind that I think you should be cordial and friendly with the current attorneys AND perform enough legitimate work product to justify your salary (after all, they deserve some respect and appreciation for hiring you, and you shouldn't be out to screw them over even if you almost hate their firm). That being said, I recommend being just barely perceptibly more cordial and more friendly with opposing counsel or other attorneys you come across while you are accompanied by attorneys from your host firm.

- Miss soft deadlines (when you know it won't screw over the lawyer). For entertainment value, miss deadlines for partners whom you don't like but promptly turn in assignments to those whom you do like. For even more entertainment value, turn in assignments immediately to likable associates while ignoring assignments from two unlikable partners for two weeks at a time.

- Before you leave for the evening (which I recommend you do no later than 5:10 p.m.), stop in to associates' offices and make certain comments as innocuously and naively as you can muster. Don't overdo it; one attorney per day is probably enough. I find that, "Hey, still here eh?" and "Damn, you look busy" are particularly effective for drawing exasperated blank stares followed by awkward laughter and a forced, cordial response. Don't worry about this escalating; most lawyers are way too passive-aggressive to call you out on it.

- If a partner goes to court and doesn't ask you to go along, be sure to admonish them upon return with a friendly and eager, "Hey, you should have let me know, I would have gone!"

- Get at least one partner's assistant to like you a lot, noticeably more than she likes her attorney. Stop and chat with her rather cheerfully a few times a week at a level just slightly-moderately audible to the partner. This works best if you are perceptive enough to pick an assistant who really doesn't like her attorney.

- Occasionally compare the firm's practice with the firm where you did your previous summer. Very subtly imply that the other firm is better. For example, if an attorney at your current firm is doing any plaintiff work whatsoever, be sure to work in that you did some work on a similar case the prior summer, but "not on the plaintiffs side, so this might be a lot different."

- Go to lunch at nice restaurants alllll over town (on your own dime) and comment to the particularly busy attorneys how good it was. This works best if you lead with, "So, ever been to X Restaurant?" and finish with, "You should go there some day for lunch." For added effect, if you're able to work it in with appropriate subtlety, mention how refreshing it is and how much it helps your productivity to get out of the office "at least once per day."

So as you go out to your SA assignments this summer, I wish you the best of luck in getting no-offered in style!

[seespotrun]

Or you could just do none of that and not accept the firm's offer at the end of the summer.

[exitoptions]

Or you could just do none of that and not accept the firm's offer at the end of the summer.

At the firm I summered at we did pretty much all of that and still got offers.

[rad lulz]

.

[rad lulz]

.

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

I don't fully agree about skipping social events. The firm is trying to evaluate if they want to work with you. If you just huddle in your office and don't meet people, well that is a bad sign.

Disagree completely. It's a sign you will be the department's favorite tyrannical midlevel. Why would firms try to hire social butterflies. They have no use for that skill set.

Regardless of the merit of this evaluation measure, why would anyone skip these events in the first place? Free food, free booze, and social time with summers. I don't get where else anyone thinks they need to be when they're being paid $3100/week to do basically nothing.

I skipped nearly every summer event (at a 100% offer rate firm--I'm not an idiot), because:

1) It's part of the whole stupid pitch where firms pretend like they're sociable places to work when in reality everyone holes up in their office;

2) I had no interest in hanging around a bunch of uptight people on their best behavior.

You're in Manhattan with some money in your pocket and a chill 9-6 job: why would you ever go to a summer event?

This is great to hear. I'm at 100% offer firm, and honestly I probably won't want to go all of these events for the same reason.

[El Pollito]

Agreed. I did not like the part where people I thought were friends and would spend time with outside of work no longer wanted to speak to me

I wonder if there's some firm policy where they're not allowed to (though I doubt it, they're probably just assholes).

[bjsesq]

Agreed. I did not like the part where people I thought were friends and would spend time with outside of work no longer wanted to speak to me

I wonder if there's some firm policy where they're not allowed to (though I doubt it, they're probably just assholes).

I know Winston has a black box policy on talking to media or anything re: no-offers, but I have no idea about not speaking to the no-offers. I doubt it too.

[rad lulz]

.

[Anonymous User]

I had a classmate who was no-offered despite being a big networker/gunner and hard worker that got a zillion callbacks at OCI. He talked endless shit about his 2L firm but I know the real reason he was no-offered... he stress-picked his nose like CRAZY. He picked with his thumb, and when he was relaxed he only did it every five minutes or so...closer to finals/stress it was constant. Pick pick pick, then hold his fingers out and rub them together to drop his haul on the floor.

He was a nice guy, but I avoided him like the plague in law school because that shit was so disgusting. Someone should have told him...we all kind of knew he was going to have issues at his firm with that nervous picking, but I guess he never figured it out. I can't imagine what he was doing at his job; if he was so oblivious that he could constantly shovel-pick his nose in a classroom full of 100 people, what was he doing among other summer associates all gunning for jobs? Imagine him picking like that in a meeting, then trying to shake someone's hand...horrible.


(posting anon to protect his anonymity, tbh)

[Anonymous User]

I don't fully agree about skipping social events. The firm is trying to evaluate if they want to work with you. If you just huddle in your office and don't meet people, well that is a bad sign.

Disagree completely. It's a sign you will be the department's favorite tyrannical midlevel. Why would firms try to hire social butterflies. They have no use for that skill set.

This is just nuts and I wonder what you're doing at your firm that would make you say social skills aren't useful. They are ESSENTIAL. There is a ton of social aspect to a bigfirm job and it just gets more social as you get more senior. Lunches with clients and potential clients, pitches, golf outings, networking events, recruiting; hell, just the ability to shoot the shit with the client on the phone while you wait for everyone else to dial in . . . and eventually, hustling for business is pure sales skills. Plus, we definitely try to read folks before negotiation sessions and do little psychological things to get our way; there's a partner I work with who is extremely affable and socially skilled and will talk your ear off about all the various techniques he's developed for negotiations.

I'd say as a fifth year 10-20% of my job is social; I'd say for most partners, especially partners who bring in business, that rises up to 50%+.

[seespotrun]

I don't fully agree about skipping social events. The firm is trying to evaluate if they want to work with you. If you just huddle in your office and don't meet people, well that is a bad sign.

Disagree completely. It's a sign you will be the department's favorite tyrannical midlevel. Why would firms try to hire social butterflies. They have no use for that skill set.

This is just nuts and I wonder what you're doing at your firm that would make you say social skills aren't useful. They are ESSENTIAL. There is a ton of social aspect to a bigfirm job and it just gets more social as you get more senior. Lunches with clients and potential clients, pitches, golf outings, networking events, recruiting; hell, just the ability to shoot the shit with the client on the phone while you wait for everyone else to dial in . . . and eventually, hustling for business is pure sales skills. Plus, we definitely try to read folks before negotiation sessions and do little psychological things to get our way; there's a partner I work with who is extremely affable and socially skilled and will talk your ear off about all the various techniques he's developed for negotiations.

I'd say as a fifth year 10-20% of my job is social; I'd say for most partners, especially partners who bring in business, that rises up to 50%+.

And despite all of the social skills you've acquired over the years, evident sarcasm still falls on deaf ears.

[84651846190]

I don't fully agree about skipping social events. The firm is trying to evaluate if they want to work with you. If you just huddle in your office and don't meet people, well that is a bad sign.

Disagree completely. It's a sign you will be the department's favorite tyrannical midlevel. Why would firms try to hire social butterflies. They have no use for that skill set.

This is just nuts and I wonder what you're doing at your firm that would make you say social skills aren't useful. They are ESSENTIAL. There is a ton of social aspect to a bigfirm job and it just gets more social as you get more senior. Lunches with clients and potential clients, pitches, golf outings, networking events, recruiting; hell, just the ability to shoot the shit with the client on the phone while you wait for everyone else to dial in . . . and eventually, hustling for business is pure sales skills. Plus, we definitely try to read folks before negotiation sessions and do little psychological things to get our way; there's a partner I work with who is extremely affable and socially skilled and will talk your ear off about all the various techniques he's developed for negotiations.

I'd say as a fifth year 10-20% of my job is social; I'd say for most partners, especially partners who bring in business, that rises up to 50%+.

She was being sarcastic. Also, you're exaggerating the importance of social skills for associates. At the partner level, social skills are important if you're a relationship partner. But the skills that are important have nothing to do with being affable and shooting the shit. Biglaw clients are usually sophisticated enough to judge you by your past experience and lawyering skills rather than your social skills. And even if they're judging you by your social skills, the social skills that are more important include engendering trust in people, displaying an ability to make solid arguments and keeping a level head. They don't care if you tell funny jokes and have a good golf game. Trust me. I know partners who bring in millions and aren't exactly the most affable, well-liked guys in the room. In fact, you might consider them to be total assholes.

[itbdvorm]

I skipped nearly every summer event (at a 100% offer rate firm--I'm not an idiot), because:

1) It's part of the whole stupid pitch where firms pretend like they're sociable places to work when in reality everyone holes up in their office;

2) I had no interest in hanging around a bunch of uptight people on their best behavior.

You're in Manhattan with some money in your pocket and a chill 9-6 job: why would you ever go to a summer event?

This is great to hear. I'm at 100% offer firm, and honestly I probably won't want to go all of these events for the same reason.

this is terrible advice. miss things here and there, OK. but you should generally be there.

[rpupkin]

I skipped nearly every summer event (at a 100% offer rate firm--I'm not an idiot), because:

1) It's part of the whole stupid pitch where firms pretend like they're sociable places to work when in reality everyone holes up in their office;

2) I had no interest in hanging around a bunch of uptight people on their best behavior.

You're in Manhattan with some money in your pocket and a chill 9-6 job: why would you ever go to a summer event?

This is great to hear. I'm at 100% offer firm, and honestly I probably won't want to go all of these events for the same reason.

this is terrible advice. miss things here and there, OK. but you should generally be there.

For sure. I spent my 2L summer at a firm that had a 100% offer rate (firm-wide) the previous summer. Someone in my office got no-offered. She missed a bunch of social events. We can't be sure that was the reason she was no-offered but, whatever the stated reason was, I'm sure missing social events didn't help.

Rayiner gives a lot of great advice on TLS, but you're taking a big risk if you "skip nearly every summer event."

[worldtraveler]

Isn't rayiner in patent law? They're allowed to be socially maladjusted, poorly dressed weirdos.

[Anonymous User]

I don't fully agree about skipping social events. The firm is trying to evaluate if they want to work with you. If you just huddle in your office and don't meet people, well that is a bad sign.

Disagree completely. It's a sign you will be the department's favorite tyrannical midlevel. Why would firms try to hire social butterflies. They have no use for that skill set.

This is just nuts and I wonder what you're doing at your firm that would make you say social skills aren't useful. They are ESSENTIAL. There is a ton of social aspect to a bigfirm job and it just gets more social as you get more senior. Lunches with clients and potential clients, pitches, golf outings, networking events, recruiting; hell, just the ability to shoot the shit with the client on the phone while you wait for everyone else to dial in . . . and eventually, hustling for business is pure sales skills. Plus, we definitely try to read folks before negotiation sessions and do little psychological things to get our way; there's a partner I work with who is extremely affable and socially skilled and will talk your ear off about all the various techniques he's developed for negotiations.

I'd say as a fifth year 10-20% of my job is social; I'd say for most partners, especially partners who bring in business, that rises up to 50%+.

She was being sarcastic. Also, you're exaggerating the importance of social skills for associates. At the partner level, social skills are important if you're a relationship partner. But the skills that are important have nothing to do with being affable and shooting the shit. Biglaw clients are usually sophisticated enough to judge you by your past experience and lawyering skills rather than your social skills. And even if they're judging you by your social skills, the social skills that are more important include engendering trust in people, displaying an ability to make solid arguments and keeping a level head. They don't care if you tell funny jokes and have a good golf game. Trust me. I know partners who bring in millions and aren't exactly the most affable, well-liked guys in the room. In fact, you might consider them to be total assholes.

I disagree. The partnerswho are total assholes know how to turn it on when needed. Social skills != nice guy. But if you can't pull your shit together for a trip to a Yankee Game or a happy hour, you're not going to be able to handle a networking event or a in-person meeting.

The problem is the basic assumption - that people who "deserve" it should succeed professionally. Deserve aint got nothing to do with it. Who gets no-offered, what skills are rewarded and what weaknesses are penalized - they're all sort of unfair and flow from a rather arbitrary way that big firms do business. There's no reason that someone who gets no-offered is "worse" than anyone else in an intrinsic, objective sense. But that's not relevant to a firm that makes hiring decisions.