ITT: Summer Associates Post About Their Anxiety (2012) Forum

[yngblkgifted]

Mine starts in two weeks. Just got back my grades and I ended up with the lowest grade on the curve in one class. Overall my GPA didn't change and the grade isn't actually noticeable because the curve in this class was A to B+, but I know I was well below the firm's usual to begin with and it puts me middle of the class at a lower T14. I'm super nervous that I'll start and they'll realize what a huge mistake it was because I'm actually as marginally qualified as my GPA and law school performance would indicate. I know that a no-offer is the kiss of death and I'm convinced that my mediocre record in law school makes me the type of person who won't be able to cut it in biglaw, even though that is my goal in life and the entire reason I went to law school.

There are very few firms where GPA makes a difference once you are hired. And the biggest one just collapsed.
Hmm, maybe that is why the collapsed.

I know the GPA doesn't matter; it actually went up overall this semester. I'm just worried that the poor writing skills and poor legal analysis that got me to the middle of the class at my law school and that I haven't overcome, despite taking classes and internships to improve those skills, will screw me out of my one opportunity to get into biglaw permanently.

I really don't think this matters to be honest. Being middle of the curve at a T14 doesn't mean you have "poor writing skills" or bad "legal analysis" it just means that others knew how to take exams better. Law schools exams are too arbitrary to use to make such an objective assessment of one's skills. Also, I've heard that law practice and law school are two different beasts. Doing well at one doesn't necessarily mean that you will do well at the other or vice versa. Just do the very best you can at the firm and you should be fine. (This is what I tell myself every morning)

[blurbz]

Mine starts in two weeks. Just got back my grades and I ended up with the lowest grade on the curve in one class. Overall my GPA didn't change and the grade isn't actually noticeable because the curve in this class was A to B+, but I know I was well below the firm's usual to begin with and it puts me middle of the class at a lower T14. I'm super nervous that I'll start and they'll realize what a huge mistake it was because I'm actually as marginally qualified as my GPA and law school performance would indicate. I know that a no-offer is the kiss of death and I'm convinced that my mediocre record in law school makes me the type of person who won't be able to cut it in biglaw, even though that is my goal in life and the entire reason I went to law school.

There are very few firms where GPA makes a difference once you are hired. And the biggest one just collapsed.
Hmm, maybe that is why the collapsed.

I know the GPA doesn't matter; it actually went up overall this semester. I'm just worried that the poor writing skills and poor legal analysis that got me to the middle of the class at my law school and that I haven't overcome, despite taking classes and internships to improve those skills, will screw me out of my one opportunity to get into biglaw permanently.

I really don't think this matters to be honest. Being middle of the curve at a T14 doesn't mean you have "poor writing skills" or bad "legal analysis" it just means that others knew how to take exams better. Law schools exams are too arbitrary to use to make such an objective assessment of one's skills. Also, I've heard that law practice and law school are two different beasts. Doing well at one doesn't necessarily mean that you will do well at the other or vice versa. Just do the very best you can at the firm and you should be fine. (This is what I tell myself every morning)

Exactly.

I'm a little worried because a few of the other SAs at my firm have pretty amazing pre-law school work experience and I'm just a K-JDer...All you can do is work hard, work smart, and network like crazy. That's my plan, anyway.

[yngblkgifted]

I'm a little worried because a few of the other SAs at my firm have pretty amazing pre-law school work experience and I'm just a K-JDer...All you can do is work hard, work smart, and network like crazy. That's my plan, anyway.

Hey man, it got you and me both this far...best of luck!

[blurbz]

I'm a little worried because a few of the other SAs at my firm have pretty amazing pre-law school work experience and I'm just a K-JDer...All you can do is work hard, work smart, and network like crazy. That's my plan, anyway.

Hey man, it got you and me both this far...best of luck!

Thanks! To you, too. We'll have to compare notes at midsummer review time....

[yngblkgifted]

Posted this as it's own topic but realized that was kinda dumb and that I could probably get more people to respond here.

This is one of my anxieties:Facial Hair

I wanted people's opinions on sporting a goatee at a SA postion.

I don't grow much facial hair but I can grow a goatee. But it's not super thick and I don't feel like it is overbearing on my appearance. I feel like if I met a stranger and we talked for 3 minutes and then they left my presence and someone asked them if I had any facial hair, they probably would be like, "I think so." I look strange and don't feel comfortable clean-shaven. However, to be fair, I played it safe on the interview and went with the clean-shaven look and hey, I can't complain with the results. However, there is no proof that I wouldn't have been offered had I kept a nicely trimmed goatee. I also thought I looked like a turtle for the 10 days or so.

If you can't already tell from my screen name, I'm black and therefore I feel like there is a little more leeway with facial hair. Additionally, one of the 2 year associates (black male) that took me out to lunch on my interview had a goatee. It was very thin, but it suited him very well. I think he would look better with it than without. So do you think It is worth it to try to sport it this summer for the sake of being more comfortable in my own skin OR is it not worth the risk of rubbing a partner the wrong way and not getting an offer and ending up in my mama's basement for the rest of my life? The firm seems pretty chill. V100...secondary market.


Has this been covered before on TLS? Probably, but I couldn't find the threads so please save the "search function" comments. Thanks!

TL; DR - goatee or no goatee?

Other than the associate who took you to lunch, any others with facial hair? I think this is probably the best test as to whether its acceptable. Not saying that you get a pass because you are black, but I do agree with your leeway comment. Many of the black males I have met in Biglaw have some type of facial hair.

Well, I met about 4 associates. 2 clean shaven (white guys), 1 with facial hair (the black guy) and the other was a woman. Everyone else I met was a parter. The hiring partner did have a nice full beard though. But he is a the hiring partner so I'm guessing he can do whatever the hell he wants. Another partner I met had longer hair...It was almost shoulder length if that counts for anything. In general I just think black guys look worse clean-shaven and white guys tend to look better clean-shaven (however, white guys pull of full-beards well IMO). I am more than likely going to bitch up the night before and go clean-shaven but it doesn't take away the inherent unfairness of the standard. Anyone have anymore thoughts on this?

[r6_philly]

Is this your first week?

Yes first week. But this is definitely firm dependent.

[LawIdiot86]

Posted this as it's own topic but realized that was kinda dumb and that I could probably get more people to respond here.

This is one of my anxieties:Facial Hair

I wanted people's opinions on sporting a goatee at a SA postion.

I don't grow much facial hair but I can grow a goatee. But it's not super thick and I don't feel like it is overbearing on my appearance. I feel like if I met a stranger and we talked for 3 minutes and then they left my presence and someone asked them if I had any facial hair, they probably would be like, "I think so." I look strange and don't feel comfortable clean-shaven. However, to be fair, I played it safe on the interview and went with the clean-shaven look and hey, I can't complain with the results. However, there is no proof that I wouldn't have been offered had I kept a nicely trimmed goatee. I also thought I looked like a turtle for the 10 days or so.

If you can't already tell from my screen name, I'm black and therefore I feel like there is a little more leeway with facial hair. Additionally, one of the 2 year associates (black male) that took me out to lunch on my interview had a goatee. It was very thin, but it suited him very well. I think he would look better with it than without. So do you think It is worth it to try to sport it this summer for the sake of being more comfortable in my own skin OR is it not worth the risk of rubbing a partner the wrong way and not getting an offer and ending up in my mama's basement for the rest of my life? The firm seems pretty chill. V100...secondary market.


Has this been covered before on TLS? Probably, but I couldn't find the threads so please save the "search function" comments. Thanks!

TL; DR - goatee or no goatee?

Other than the associate who took you to lunch, any others with facial hair? I think this is probably the best test as to whether its acceptable. Not saying that you get a pass because you are black, but I do agree with your leeway comment. Many of the black males I have met in Biglaw have some type of facial hair.

Well, I met about 4 associates. 2 clean shaven (white guys), 1 with facial hair (the black guy) and the other was a woman. Everyone else I met was a parter. The hiring partner did have a nice full beard though. But he is a the hiring partner so I'm guessing he can do whatever the hell he wants. Another partner I met had longer hair...It was almost shoulder length if that counts for anything. In general I just think black guys look worse clean-shaven and white guys tend to look better clean-shaven (however, white guys pull of full-beards well IMO). I am more than likely going to bitch up the night before and go clean-shaven but it doesn't take away the inherent unfairness of the standard. Anyone have anymore thoughts on this?

If you keep the mustache, the only thing you win is a little bit of your self-esteem from thinking you look better with it on and you possibly lose a biglaw job. If you get rid of it, your self-esteem dies a little, but that was going to happen anyway and you eliminate a threat to you getting that biglaw job.

[Anonymous User]

Here is one anxiety I have: $$$. Any idea when we can expect our first direct deposits? I would imagine this varies by firm, but any anecdotal info would be appreciated. Please basically how many days after your start date. $$$ is reeaaallly tight right now.

Any more info on this topic? C'mon guys, this isn't complicated.

[Anonymous User]

My firm is every two weeks on Friday.

[Ludo!]

Here is one anxiety I have: $$$. Any idea when we can expect our first direct deposits? I would imagine this varies by firm, but any anecdotal info would be appreciated. Please basically how many days after your start date. $$$ is reeaaallly tight right now.

Any more info on this topic? C'mon guys, this isn't complicated.

Wasn't the question already answered? It varies by firm. If it helps, at mine it's the second Friday after we start

[Anonymous User]

First week in the books for a lot of people...biggest surprises? Coolest parts?

MOAR stories

[blurbz]

First week in the books for a lot of people...biggest surprises? Coolest parts?

MOAR stories

How's the substantive work coming along? Anyone working today?

[Anonymous User]

My firm is every two weeks on Friday.

Yeah. Mine is every 1st and 15th each month. I think it's firm specific.

[Anonymous User]

First week in the books for a lot of people...biggest surprises? Coolest parts?

MOAR stories

Found out I was the first black attorney ever hired in my office, and that includes laterals. If I wasn't nervous before, I damn sure am now.

[Anonymous User]

Mine starts in two weeks. Just got back my grades and I ended up with the lowest grade on the curve in one class. Overall my GPA didn't change and the grade isn't actually noticeable because the curve in this class was A to B+, but I know I was well below the firm's usual to begin with and it puts me middle of the class at a lower T14. I'm super nervous that I'll start and they'll realize what a huge mistake it was because I'm actually as marginally qualified as my GPA and law school performance would indicate. I know that a no-offer is the kiss of death and I'm convinced that my mediocre record in law school makes me the type of person who won't be able to cut it in biglaw, even though that is my goal in life and the entire reason I went to law school.

There are very few firms where GPA makes a difference once you are hired. And the biggest one just collapsed.
Hmm, maybe that is why the collapsed.

Can you name these firms please?

[blurbz]

Mine starts in two weeks. Just got back my grades and I ended up with the lowest grade on the curve in one class. Overall my GPA didn't change and the grade isn't actually noticeable because the curve in this class was A to B+, but I know I was well below the firm's usual to begin with and it puts me middle of the class at a lower T14. I'm super nervous that I'll start and they'll realize what a huge mistake it was because I'm actually as marginally qualified as my GPA and law school performance would indicate. I know that a no-offer is the kiss of death and I'm convinced that my mediocre record in law school makes me the type of person who won't be able to cut it in biglaw, even though that is my goal in life and the entire reason I went to law school.

There are very few firms where GPA makes a difference once you are hired. And the biggest one just collapsed.
Hmm, maybe that is why the collapsed.

Can you name these firms please?

Let's not turn this thread into another one of these. There are myriad threads out there about grade drops and whether they do or don't matter once you're hired. Consensus is that grades don't matter much as long as your work is good.

[LawIdiot86]

First week in the books for a lot of people...biggest surprises? Coolest parts?

MOAR stories

Found out I was the first black attorney ever hired in my office, and that includes laterals. If I wasn't nervous before, I damn sure am now.

That actually might help you. Any decent size firm in a remotely populated city without any blacks is an outlier and if they no-offer the firm black they hired, that would also look bad on them.

[ben4847]

First week in the books for a lot of people...biggest surprises? Coolest parts?

MOAR stories

Found out I was the first black attorney ever hired in my office, and that includes laterals. If I wasn't nervous before, I damn sure am now.

That actually might help you. Any decent size firm in a remotely populated city without any blacks is an outlier and if they no-offer the firm black they hired, that would also look bad on them.

That's pretty cool. How small is this office?

[Anonymous User]

First week in the books for a lot of people...biggest surprises? Coolest parts?

MOAR stories

Found out I was the first black attorney ever hired in my office, and that includes laterals. If I wasn't nervous before, I damn sure am now.

That actually might help you. Any decent size firm in a remotely populated city without any blacks is an outlier and if they no-offer the firm black they hired, that would also look bad on them.

That's pretty cool. How small is this office?

V10, major market but not NY. Approximately 40 lawyers. They're all lovely people, but it definitely threw me off lol.

[LawIdiot86]

Found out I was the first black attorney ever hired in my office, and that includes laterals. If I wasn't nervous before, I damn sure am now.

That actually might help you. Any decent size firm in a remotely populated city without any blacks is an outlier and if they no-offer the firm black they hired, that would also look bad on them.

That's pretty cool. How small is this office?

V10, major market but not NY. Approximately 40 lawyers. They're all lovely people, but it definitely threw me off lol.

Yeah, this sounds like an auto-offer situation. I can't imagine being the local HR person and having to tell the national HR person they intend to no-offer the first black person ever hired by this office.

[Anonymous User]

First week in the books for a lot of people...biggest surprises? Coolest parts?

MOAR stories

Found out I was the first black attorney ever hired in my office, and that includes laterals. If I wasn't nervous before, I damn sure am now.

How did you not know this before/during callback season?? Are there no incoming associates who will be black?? Clearly this bothers you since you're mentioning it now, right? I'm black and I made sure to look at the NALP statistics for every firm and office I had a callback. Even though I've gone to predominately white schools my entire life, I would be really uncomfortable being the only anything at a firm, especially because diversity is a big thing most firms like to brag about.

You shouldn't be nervous per se, but I would wonder why your firm has never hired a black attorney before. It might say something about their practices that make it unwelcoming to black attorneys... I'd also wonder about who would be your mentor this summer and when you start as a first year. At least at my firm (and my friends' firms), our mentors were people who shared a huge characteristic with us (i.e., gay or black or asian or latina or from the same school (which I think is kind of a cop-out).

[Anonymous User]

Yeah, this sounds like an auto-offer situation. I can't imagine being the local HR person and having to tell the national HR person they intend to no-offer the first black person ever hired by this office.

I hope you're right! hahaha...thank you for your input <3

[Anonymous User]

First week in the books for a lot of people...biggest surprises? Coolest parts?

MOAR stories

Found out I was the first black attorney ever hired in my office, and that includes laterals. If I wasn't nervous before, I damn sure am now.

How did you not know this before/during callback season?? Are there no incoming associates who will be black?? Clearly this bothers you since you're mentioning it now, right? I'm black and I made sure to look at the NALP statistics for every firm and office I had a callback. Even though I've gone to predominately white schools my entire life, I would be really uncomfortable being the only anything at a firm, especially because diversity is a big thing most firms like to brag about.

You shouldn't be nervous per se, but I would wonder why your firm has never hired a black attorney before. It might say something about their practices that make it unwelcoming to black attorneys... I'd also wonder about who would be your mentor this summer and when you start as a first year. At least at my firm (and my friends' firms), our mentors were people who shared a huge characteristic with us (i.e., gay or black or asian or latina or from the same school (which I think is kind of a cop-out).

I definitely looked at the NALP during callback season and noticed that there were no black attorneys, but I assumed that maybe they lateraled out or something. And no, I am the only black attorney in the SA class. I made sure to sit down with both of my legal assistant and secretary to ask the best way to work with them, and one of them is black. Because I was curious, I simply asked her if I was the first. She said, "I've been here the entire time this office has been open and yes, you are the first." It doesn't bother me per se, it just feels like the pressure is on a little! I mean, I'm used to being the only black person in the room, but the FIRST and only black person hahaha...yeah that was definitely new for me. What's funny is that the firm is ranked very high for overall diversity across all offices! I guess I just picked the one that also "needed" me.

To your latter point, I agree! I definitely experienced a form of cognitive dissonance; like I was happy to be a 'history maker' but I was also concerned that it's 2012 and I'm only the first. But my mentors are lovely and I've had such a wonderful experience so far! None of my mentors have a similar characteristic to me...well one of them does, but if I say I would be totally outed hahah! Maybe I will be the first black partner of that office!!! Who knows!

[Anonymous User]

I'm anxious because I already have three projects with two being from a major partner who apparently thinks I'm great. If I disappoint this dude with my work or analysis, that'd be terrible. I wouldve rather had work from only associates the first two weeks or so.

[Anonymous User]

From the posts on this thread I'm a little surprised. From my first week (V10 NYC), being a summer associate is no fucking joke. We've had people working till 8-9 at night relatively regularly and had a summer get yelled at already. I'm surprised about the respones here but maybe its just the firm/market I'm in.