Post Your Bidlists Here for Critique, Consolation & Caveats Forum

[Anonymous User]

Also, if your only stated criterion thus far is "firms that performed well in the downturn," then the list is a giant fail. Clifford Chance, Linklaters, White & Case, Cahill, Sidley, and Latham all laid off a huge number of associates during the downturn. I would start from scratch and rethink your goals and strategy. Top 20% is a good spot at CLS, don't waste it with a terrible bidlist.

+1
http://lawshucks.com/2010/01/the-year-i ... offs-2009/

See chart for top 10 firms based on total layoffs in 2009

It was only one criterion among many. Thanks for the chart though. I am the first to admit that I have no idea what im doing. I've been operating under the impression that stone at cls was good enough to get into almost any firm other than the notoriously grade selective ones. Is this wrong?

[Anonymous User]

I'm at GULC, and they only tell us top 33%, top 15%, and top 10%. I'm in the top 33%, I'd probably estimate 25-30%. What NYC firms should I be bidding on? All serious replies greatly appreciated.

[GeePee]

Also, if your only stated criterion thus far is "firms that performed well in the downturn," then the list is a giant fail. Clifford Chance, Linklaters, White & Case, Cahill, Sidley, and Latham all laid off a huge number of associates during the downturn. I would start from scratch and rethink your goals and strategy. Top 20% is a good spot at CLS, don't waste it with a terrible bidlist.

+1
http://lawshucks.com/2010/01/the-year-i ... offs-2009/

See chart for top 10 firms based on total layoffs in 2009

It was only one criterion among many. Thanks for the chart though. I am the first to admit that I have no idea what im doing. I've been operating under the impression that stone at cls was good enough to get into almost any firm other than the notoriously grade selective ones. Is this wrong?

Stone is good enough to have a chance at getting into all but the most grade selective firms. You might land 5 of the v10's you listed, you might land 0 of them. I think it's best to think harder about the less selective firms on your bidlist, because you have a greater chance of being accepted by them and they generally have a wider range of personalities and cultures (not saying the v10's don't have noticeable differences; they do, but not as well-defined).

The point of my post wasn't to cut 5 of your top 10 firms, get into most of the ones you didn't cut, and then regret your decision. The point was to consider more thoroughly the balance between firms you really like, and achieving the proper distribution of selectivities. It may make sense for you to maintain the entire v10 in your list after you think that out, but you're doing yourself a disservice by not looking more closely.

[Anonymous User]

Also, if your only stated criterion thus far is "firms that performed well in the downturn," then the list is a giant fail. Clifford Chance, Linklaters, White & Case, Cahill, Sidley, and Latham all laid off a huge number of associates during the downturn. I would start from scratch and rethink your goals and strategy. Top 20% is a good spot at CLS, don't waste it with a terrible bidlist.

+1
http://lawshucks.com/2010/01/the-year-i ... offs-2009/

See chart for top 10 firms based on total layoffs in 2009

It was only one criterion among many. Thanks for the chart though. I am the first to admit that I have no idea what im doing. I've been operating under the impression that stone at cls was good enough to get into almost any firm other than the notoriously grade selective ones. Is this wrong?

Stone is good enough to have a chance at getting into all but the most grade selective firms. You might land 5 of the v10's you listed, you might land 0 of them. I think it's best to think harder about the less selective firms on your bidlist, because you have a greater chance of being accepted by them and they generally have a wider range of personalities and cultures (not saying the v10's don't have noticeable differences; they do, but not as well-defined).

The point of my post wasn't to cut 5 of your top 10 firms, get into most of the ones you didn't cut, and then regret your decision. The point was to consider more thoroughly the balance between firms you really like, and achieving the proper distribution of selectivities. It may make sense for you to maintain the entire v10 in your list after you think that out, but you're doing yourself a disservice by not looking more closely.

I agree with you. I should have waited until I ordered my list and finished it. I only posted it to see if there were any that I simply should not bid on because they were too grade selective for my rank/school. I was going to use the rest of my bids to target DC firms with high bid/interview ratios, but I think I will instead target NY firms that are less selective and have good ratios. The hard part is figuring out which ones are less selective! Thanks for all of the advice on here so far though.

[Anonymous User]

Attempt #2: "Top 15-20% UVA. Thoughts? Want transactional, really slight preference for DC over NY but most important is a solid transactional practice"

Earlier, I was told my order was really bad. Fixed or worse?

Cleary, Gottlieb, Steen & Hamilton (New York, NY)
Paul, Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton & Garrison (New York, NY)
Debevoise & Plimpton (New York, NY)
Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom (New York, NY)
Latham & Watkins (New York, NY)
Arnold & Porter (Washington, DC)
Sidley Austin (New York, NY)
hogan lovells US LLP (Washington, DC)
Kirkland & Ellis (Washington, DC)
Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom (Washington, DC)
Akin Gump Strauss Hauer & Feld LLP (Washington, DC)
White & Case (New York, NY)
Latham & Watkins (Washington, DC)
Weil, Gotshal & Manges (New York, NY)
Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher (Washington, DC)
WilmerHale (Washington, DC)
Kirkland & Ellis (New York, NY)
Ropes & Gray (New York, NY)
Davis Polk & Wardwell (New York, NY)
Simpson Thacher & Bartlett (New York, NY)
Shearman & Sterling (New York, NY)
Sullivan & Cromwell (New York, NY)
Cravath Swaine & Moore (New York, NY)
Covington & Burling LLP (Washington, DC)
Dewey & LeBoeuf (New York, NY)
WilmerHale (New York, NY)
clifford chance (New York, NY)
Cahill, Gordon & Reindel (New York, NY)
Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher (New York, NY) A
Fried, Frank, Harris, Shriver & Jacobson (New York, NY)
Sidley Austin (Washington, DC)
freshfields bruckhaus deringer (New York, NY)
Morgan, Lewis & Bockius (New York, NY)
Milbank, Tweed, Hadley & McCloy (New York, NY)
Akin Gump Strauss Hauer & Feld (New York, NY)
Jones Day (Washington, DC)
Jones Day (New York, NY)
Fried, Frank, Harris, Shriver & Jacobson (Washington, DC)
Linklaters (New York, NY)
Paul, Hastings, Janofsky & Walker (Washington, DC)
Allen & Overy (New York, NY)
Paul, Hastings, Janofsky & Walker (New York, NY)
Cadwalader, Wickersham & Taft (New York, NY)
Ropes & Gray (Washington, DC)
Orrick, Herrington & Sutcliffe (New York, NY)
Willkie Farr & Gallagher (New York, NY)
Crowell & Moring (Washington, DC)
Dechert (New York, NY)
Proskauer Rose (New York, NY)
Baker Botts (Washington, DC)

[thesealocust]

It's not a bad order for your preferences, but it's probably a bad order for bidding. The more interviews a firm is doing (i.e. the more rooms it has booked) the better your odds of getting picked (a) via pre-select (making ordering irrelevant) or (b) getting it with a relatively low lottery pick. The gigantic NYC firms really have no business being in your top 5, maybe not even your top 10. Those are also prime candidates for pounding pavement and getting special requests if bidding falls through since they often have very large schedules.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks again - I guess my thinking was that some of the big elite ny firms are gonna be bid on by LR people aiming for DC and hedging their bets with NY

[Anonymous User]

It's not a bad order for your preferences, but it's probably a bad order for bidding. The more interviews a firm is doing (i.e. the more rooms it has booked) the better your odds of getting picked (a) via pre-select (making ordering irrelevant) or (b) getting it with a relatively low lottery pick. The gigantic NYC firms really have no business being in your top 5, maybe not even your top 10. Those are also prime candidates for pounding pavement and getting special requests if bidding falls through since they often have very large schedules.

Agree with you you, though Skadden NyC only has 1 schedule this year.

[Anonymous User]

Yeah, that's why I had Skadden high, same with Cleary

[Anonymous User]

Somewhere between top 5-10% at UT (probably closer to top 10%). Interested in litigation. We have 60 bids, with 70% preselect, 30% lotto.

1. Vinson and Elkins (Austin)
1. Vinson and Elkins (Dallas)
1. Vinson and Elkins (Houston)
4. Susman Godfrey (Dallas)
4. Susman Godfrey (Houston)
6. Gibbs & Bruns (Houston)
7. Fulbright (Austin)
7. Fulbright (Dallas)
7. Fulbright (Houston)
10. Baker Botts (Austin)
10. Baker Botts (Dallas)
10. Baker Botts (Houston)
12. GDC (Dallas)
13. Weil (Dallas)
13. Weil (Houston)
15. Beck, Redden & Secrest (Houston)
16. Yetter Coleman (Austin)
16. Yetter Coleman (Houston)
18. Akin Gump (Dallas)
18. Akin Gump (Houston)
20. Thompson & Knight (Dallas)
20. Thompson & Knight (Houston)
22. Jones Day (Dallas)
22. Jones Day (Houston)
24. mckool smith (Dallas)
25. Bickel and Brewer (Dallas)
26. Scott, Douglass & McConnico (Austin)
27. King & Spalding (Austin)
27. King & Spalding (Houston)
29. Baker McKenzie (Dallas)
29. Baker McKenzie (Houston)
31. Skadden (Houston)
32. Haynes Boone (Dallas)
32. Haynes Boone (Houston)
34. Bracewell & Giuliani (Austin)
34. Bracewell & Giuliani (Dallas)
34. Bracewell & Giuliani (Houston)
37. Locke Lord (Austin)
37. Locke Lord (Dallas)
37. Locke Lord (Houston)
40. Jackson Walker (Austin)
40. Jackson Walker (Dallas)
40. Jackson Walker (Ft. Worth)
40. Jackson Walker (Houston)
44. Andrews Kurth (Austin)
44. Andrews Kurth (Dallas)
44. Andrews Kurth (Houston)

What firms should I be adding? Any that don't belong? Should my ordering be different at all?

Right now I have no preference between Austin, Dallas, Houston--any firm offices have a better reputation in one of those cities?

Does my list reek too much of litigation boutiques that I only have a tiny chance at (if any)?

Quality of life is important to me. What bigtex firms have that reputation?

[Na_Swatch]

Also, if your only stated criterion thus far is "firms that performed well in the downturn," then the list is a giant fail. Clifford Chance, Linklaters, White & Case, Cahill, Sidley, and Latham all laid off a huge number of associates during the downturn. I would start from scratch and rethink your goals and strategy. Top 20% is a good spot at CLS, don't waste it with a terrible bidlist.

+1
http://lawshucks.com/2010/01/the-year-i ... offs-2009/

See chart for top 10 firms based on total layoffs in 2009

I don't think this is entirely accurate though... The law firm layoffs just compares total number of layoffs, completely ignoring the frequency/ location/ and size of the stated firms.

For example... some of these are huge firms that had layoffs which were a much smaller percentage number than others as they have 20+ offices (although clifford chance did focus all its layoffs in London and NYC, so that is still pretty bad). On the other hand, Cadwalader having only 5 offices and being up there on the list means it layed off an absolutely huge proportion of its lawyers, especially in the US.

[Anonymous User]

top 40% at MVP. good first semester grades, not so great second semester grades.
70% preselect, 30% lottery. excellent undergrad, went straight through, prestigious, interesting 1L internship. good interviewer, but don't think i'm stellar.

1. Linklaters
2. Curtis Mallet
3. White and Case
4. Schulte
5. WilmerHale
6. Milbank
7. Orrick
8. Alston and Bird ATL
9. Chadbourne
10. Wilkie
11. Fried
12. Weil
13. Shearman
14. King and Spalding ATL
15. Morgan Lewis
16. Sutherland ATL
17. Jones Day ATL
18. Troutman Sanders ATL
19. Brown Rudnick
20. Seward
21. Kasowtiz
22. Skadden
23. Allen and Overy
24. Katten
25. Baker + Hostetler
26. Cahill
27. Proskauer
28. Baker + Mackenzie
29. Freshfields
30. Jones Day

i know there are a ton of reaches on this list, but im in a go big or go home mood. my remaining 20 bids will be spent on firms from my undergraduate and home secondary markets whose median call back gpas were at or below mine where i think i have a decent shot a preselection. should i be moving firms like brown, seward, kasowitz and baker up into my top 10/15, if i really don't have an overwhelming interest in working in these firms, and would probably take an ATL offer (should i receive one) over those places, or do i really need these safer firms as potential lottery picks? all offices not specified are NYC. thanks.

[seriouslyinformative]

Somewhere between top 5-10% at UT (probably closer to top 10%). Interested in litigation. We have 60 bids, with 70% preselect, 30% lotto.

1. Vinson and Elkins (Austin)
1. Vinson and Elkins (Dallas)
1. Vinson and Elkins (Houston)
4. Susman Godfrey (Dallas)
4. Susman Godfrey (Houston)
6. Gibbs & Bruns (Houston)
7. Fulbright (Austin)
7. Fulbright (Dallas)
7. Fulbright (Houston)
10. Baker Botts (Austin)
10. Baker Botts (Dallas)
10. Baker Botts (Houston)
12. GDC (Dallas)
13. Weil (Dallas)
13. Weil (Houston)
15. Beck, Redden & Secrest (Houston)
16. Yetter Coleman (Austin)
16. Yetter Coleman (Houston)
18. Akin Gump (Dallas)
18. Akin Gump (Houston)
20. Thompson & Knight (Dallas)
20. Thompson & Knight (Houston)
22. Jones Day (Dallas)
22. Jones Day (Houston)
24. McKool Smith (Dallas)
25. Bickel and Brewer (Dallas)
26. Scott, Douglass & McConnico (Austin)
27. King & Spalding (Austin)
27. King & Spalding (Houston)
29. Baker McKenzie (Dallas)
29. Baker McKenzie (Houston)
31. Skadden (Houston)
32. Haynes Boone (Dallas)
32. Haynes Boone (Houston)
34. Bracewell & Giuliani (Austin)
34. Bracewell & Giuliani (Dallas)
34. Bracewell & Giuliani (Houston)
37. Locke Lord (Austin)
37. Locke Lord (Dallas)
37. Locke Lord (Houston)
40. Jackson Walker (Austin)
40. Jackson Walker (Dallas)
40. Jackson Walker (Ft. Worth)
40. Jackson Walker (Houston)
44. Andrews Kurth (Austin)
44. Andrews Kurth (Dallas)
44. Andrews Kurth (Houston)

What firms should I be adding? Any that don't belong? Should my ordering be different at all?

Right now I have no preference between Austin, Dallas, Houston--any firm offices have a better reputation in one of those cities?

Does my list reek too much of litigation boutiques that I only have a tiny chance at (if any)?

Quality of life is important to me. What bigtex firms have that reputation?

Is being so indifferent between offices a good strategy? In general, I don't think so. And I'm inclined to extend that intuition to Texas as well. Also, if you must interview for multiple offices, firms will usually just interview you once and pass off your interview report/resume to any other office for which you want to be considered. No need to waste bids.

[Anonymous User]

Is being so indifferent between offices a good strategy? In general, I don't think so. And I'm inclined to extend that intuition to Texas as well. Also, if you must interview for multiple offices, firms will usually just interview you once and pass off your interview report/resume to any other office for which you want to be considered. No need to waste bids.

Thanks for the response. Does it help that I have strong family ties to one of Houston/Dallas, my girlfriend has strong family ties to the other, and we will both have ties to Austin? Some of the firms may only take one bid (i.e. V&E and Fulbright) but allow interviews with related offices. Does that mean I will have to choose between whether I'll be interviewing with someone from Austin/Dallas/Houston and won't be able to interview with someone from the other two cities?

Disregarding the waste of bids, will being indifferent hurt me in other ways? I did some mock interviews with a few firms where I let the interviewer know my indifference between cities and explained why I would love to live in any of the three cities. My answer seemed to do well in the mock interviews, but will it have a good shot of failing when it comes to actual interviews?

[NakedPowerOrgan]

Top quarter-ish (maybe a little better? don't really know) at MVP, transferred to CCN (all firms are NYC unless noted otherwise). Want transactional, would take lit, mostly just want a job:

1. Weil
2. Latham
3. Fried Frank
4. Davis Polk
5. Cleary
6. Simpson Thatcher
7. Winston - Chicago
8. Cadwalader
9. Jones Day
10. Dewey
11. Cravath
12. Kirkland - Chicago
13. Dechert
14. Sidley
15. Jenner - Chicago
16. Paul Weiss
17. Debevoise
18. Proskauer
19. McDermott - Chicago
20. Skadden
21. Sidley - Chicago
22. Allen Overy
23. Katten - Chicago
24. Seyfarth - Chicago
25. Gibson Dunn
26. Mayer Brown - Chicago
27. Latham - Chicago
28. Willkie Farr
29. Jones Day - Chicago
30. Ropes & Gray
31. Skadden - Chicago
32. WilmerHale
33. Kramer Levin
34. Paul Hastings
35. Hughes Hubbard
36. Schiff - Chicago
37. SNR Denton - Chicago
38. Orrick
39. Pillsbury Winthop
40. Greenberg - Chicago
41. Baker McKenzie - Chicago
42. Curtis Mallet
43. Morrison Foerster
44. hogan lovells
45. Freshfields
46. Neal Gerber - Chicago
47. dla piper - Chicago
48. Baker Hostetler - Chicago
49. Paul Hastings - Chicago
50. Vinson Elkins

[Anonymous User]

Top quarter-ish (maybe a little better? don't really know) at MVP, transferred to CCN (all firms are NYC unless noted otherwise). Want transactional, would take lit, mostly just want a job:

1. Weil
2. Latham
3. Fried Frank
4. Davis Polk
5. Cleary
6. Simpson Thatcher
7. Winston - Chicago
8. Cadwalader
9. Jones Day
10. Dewey
11. Cravath
12. Kirkland - Chicago
13. Dechert
14. Sidley
15. Jenner - Chicago
16. Paul Weiss
17. Debevoise
18. Proskauer
19. McDermott - Chicago
20. Skadden
21. Sidley - Chicago
22. Allen Overy
23. Katten - Chicago
24. Seyfarth - Chicago
25. Gibson Dunn
26. Mayer Brown - Chicago
27. Latham - Chicago
28. Willkie Farr
29. Jones Day - Chicago
30. Ropes & Gray
31. Skadden - Chicago
32. WilmerHale
33. Kramer Levin
34. Paul Hastings
35. Hughes Hubbard
36. Schiff - Chicago
37. SNR Denton - Chicago
38. Orrick
39. Pillsbury Winthop
40. Greenberg - Chicago
41. Baker McKenzie - Chicago
42. Curtis Mallet
43. Morrison Foerster
44. Hogan Lovells
45. Freshfields
46. Neal Gerber - Chicago
47. DLA Piper - Chicago
48. Baker Hostetler - Chicago
49. Paul Hastings - Chicago
50. Vinson Elkins

I was in a very similar position.

1) I wouldn't bid Cravath.
2) I think splitting your bids evenly between Chicago and NYC is bad. I think the best thing is to do is maybe put 10-15 bids max toward the Chicago market. In fact, I think you should really only bid K&E Chicago, because if you manage to snag a decent NYC firm, that firm will almost invariably be in better financial condition than any other Chicago firm. But if you are really that gung-ho about Chicago, don't devote too many of your bids toward it. As you say, your goal is to get a job. The Chicago market is hurting.

Also, why are you bidding on places like V&E NYC and WilmerHale NYC? You have the credentials to be in the running for top NYC firms that are based in NYC, and firms that are not super prestigious but are still financially stable, with broad practices, and are based in NYC. WilmerHale and V&E are practically nonexistent in the city, and their small summer class sizes really reduce your prospects.

[ndirish2010]

Sidley- Chicago is probably worth a bid. They actually had more SAs listed for 2011 than 2009 on NALP I believe. Sidley and K&E by far have the largest class sizes in Chicago, I'd say both are worth bids. Winston, Jones Day, and Jenner still have reduced class sizes, not sure if they are planning on coming back a little bit for 2012. Nevertheless, they all are in the double digits- Jenner 16, Jones Day 11, Winston 22. McDermott was at 12 I believe. Most of these are increases from 2010, but it varies as to how much.

[NakedPowerOrgan]

I was in a very similar position.

1) I wouldn't bid Cravath.
2) I think splitting your bids evenly between Chicago and NYC is bad. I think the best thing is to do is maybe put 10-15 bids max toward the Chicago market. In fact, I think you should really only bid K&E Chicago, because if you manage to snag a decent NYC firm, that firm will almost invariably be in better financial condition than any other Chicago firm. But if you are really that gung-ho about Chicago, don't devote too many of your bids toward it. As you say, your goal is to get a job. The Chicago market is hurting.

(1) I know it's probably a wasted bid, but I would like at least a shot at it. Might change my mind though, but I want it in there for now.

(2) I based a lot of the bidding on summer class size. For example, Katten in Chicago has a bigger SA class size than Willkie Farr in NYC for 2011. This seemed to mean to me that I would stand a better chance getting a job at Katten than at Willkie, all else being equal. Is this wrong?

[NakedPowerOrgan]

Also, why are you bidding on places like V&E NYC and WilmerHale NYC? You have the credentials to be in the running for top NYC firms that are based in NYC, and firms that are not super prestigious but are still financially stable, with broad practices, and are based in NYC. WilmerHale and V&E are practically nonexistent in the city, and their small summer class sizes really reduce your prospects.

WilmerHale NY still took 13 people for their 2011 summer class, and I thought that their NY office was fairly decent in terms of corporate work and commercial lit.

[seriouslyinformative]

(2) I based a lot of the bidding on summer class size. For example, Katten in Chicago has a bigger SA class size than Willkie Farr in NYC for 2011. This seemed to mean to me that I would stand a better chance getting a job at Katten than at Willkie, all else being equal. Is this wrong?

Somewhat. Since Willkie Farr is somewhat further down the prestige foodchain in NYC, they can't be all that selective even if they're having a smaller class size. Katten Muchin, while not prestigious, exists in a market where there aren't nearly as many big firms and summer associate positions. As a result, if a lot of top students are applying to that market, you might find yourself competing against them for those spots.

In my opinion, if you are in a position to be somewhat picky (which you are), you should be looking for:
1) Top firms that are financially stable with big summer classes at which you have a decent chance (this rules out Cravath, S&C).
2) Top firms that are financially stable at which you have a decent chance (rules out Wachtell, Munger, W&C, Boies)
3) Firms that are financially stable with big summer classes

You can fill your bid list with those types of firms. Absolutely no need to have places like Katten, WilmerHale NYC, V&E NYC, etc. there.

[seriouslyinformative]

Also, why are you bidding on places like V&E NYC and WilmerHale NYC? You have the credentials to be in the running for top NYC firms that are based in NYC, and firms that are not super prestigious but are still financially stable, with broad practices, and are based in NYC. WilmerHale and V&E are practically nonexistent in the city, and their small summer class sizes really reduce your prospects.

WilmerHale NY still took 13 people for their 2011 summer class, and I thought that their NY office was fairly decent in terms of corporate work and commercial lit.

This is going to sound harsh, but no one cares about WilmerHale here. The NYC firms, or non-NYC firms with established NYC presence are:

Wachtell
Cravath
S&C
Skadden
Davis Polk
Cleary
Weil
Simpson
Kirkland
Paul Weiss
Debevoise
Latham
Gibson
Jones Day
Willkie Farr
Dewey
Hughes Hubbard
Milbank
Fried Frank
Proskauer Rose
Cadwalader
Boies
Shearman
Kramer Levin
Cahill

I think there are some non-indigenous firms in the market that are poised for growth and establishment. They are:
Freshfields
Covington (maybe)
Ropes & Gray
Paul Hastings (Maybe)

I'm sure I'm missing a few. At the end of the day, if your goal is *just* to get an offer, your chances are (usually) higher at a firm with a bigger summer class in NYC than at places like V&E NYC, WilmerHale NYC, A&P NYC, hogan lovells NYC, etc. To me, those places are not places at which to start your career, if you have the choice.

[quakeroats]

I'm sure I'm missing a few. At the end of the day, if your goal is *just* to get an offer, your chances are (usually) higher at a firm with a bigger summer class in NYC than at places like V&E NYC, WilmerHale NYC, A&P NYC, Hogan Lovells NYC, etc. To me, those places are not places at which to start your career, if you have the choice.

Flesh this out. Is your problem with WilmerHale that it's difficult to get an offer or something else?

[NakedPowerOrgan]

At the end of the day, if your goal is *just* to get an offer, your chances are (usually) higher at a firm with a bigger summer class in NYC than at places like V&E NYC, WilmerHale NYC, A&P NYC, Hogan Lovells NYC, etc. To me, those places are not places at which to start your career, if you have the choice.

Yeah, I know that my chances are going to be greater. That's the reason that pretty much all the firms high up on my list have large summer classes. WilmerHale and V&E were in there as an extra shot if I miss out on V15 firms with gigantic classes. If I did miss out on them, I would probably go into survival mode, just trying to get a job anywhere at any semi-respected firm that pays market or close.

[seriouslyinformative]

I'm sure I'm missing a few. At the end of the day, if your goal is *just* to get an offer, your chances are (usually) higher at a firm with a bigger summer class in NYC than at places like V&E NYC, WilmerHale NYC, A&P NYC, Hogan Lovells NYC, etc. To me, those places are not places at which to start your career, if you have the choice.

Flesh this out. Is your problem with WilmerHale that it's difficult to get an offer or something else?

I just think that a satellite office with limited presence in the local market is bad for an associate just starting out their career, unless they have some very specific goals. The brand name of the firm has very little local cachet, which means the associate is limiting herself compared to associates at indigenous/established firms. The work the firm does is not as sophisticated as the work indigenous or established practices do. Partnership-prospects, as limited as they are, are even lower because the work these offices do is sourced usually from the HQ. If you don't end up liking the practice area you're in, you're limited because the firm might not even do the other practices you might consider taking up in that office. I could go on and on.

If you're really sure of a particular practice area, go with a boutique. If you're unsure, go to an office that's more full service. If you have the grades, go to a brand name office that's more full service. If you have even better grades, go to a prestigious office that's more full service.

Obviously, there are exceptions to the above. But I don't think places like Wilmer and V&E are considered major players in the NYC area, or even minor ones. They're just outposts of megafirms.

[seriouslyinformative]

At the end of the day, if your goal is *just* to get an offer, your chances are (usually) higher at a firm with a bigger summer class in NYC than at places like V&E NYC, WilmerHale NYC, A&P NYC, Hogan Lovells NYC, etc. To me, those places are not places at which to start your career, if you have the choice.

Yeah, I know that my chances are going to be greater. That's the reason that pretty much all the firms high up on my list have large summer classes. WilmerHale and V&E were in there as an extra shot if I miss out on V15 firms with gigantic classes. If I did miss out on them, I would probably go into survival mode, just trying to get a job anywhere at any semi-respected firm that pays market or close.

All I'm saying is that I feel like there are firms in the gap between the V15 megafirms and places like NYC satellite small outposts. Those are the firms that should be occupying the remaining spots of your bid list. I know your school forces you to use 10 of your bids on non-NYC, so 10 toward Chicago is fine. But I just gave you around 30 firms above that are probably better choices than WilmerHale and V&E, and I'm sure you can fish out another 10-15 more (I say 15 to replace the no-shots like Cravath, S&C, Wachtell, Boies, etc.).