CCN Students without Offers Forum

[Anonymous User]

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[clintonius]

i read the first couple of pages and just wanted to confirm something with yall (i'm a clueless 0L hoping for CCN, more like BMVP numbers):

No matter how depressing this thread looks, it's safe to say dudes at BMVP with the same numbers (rank, whatever) are in worse shape than you guys, and DNCG is worse off than them, and non t-14 are worse off then them... right?

Wrong.

I'd be curious to hear thoughts on this one way or the other. Mostly I think quakeroats is a knowitall with unsubstantiated claims, but if he's right I have a vested interest in knowing so.

[rayiner]

i read the first couple of pages and just wanted to confirm something with yall (i'm a clueless 0L hoping for CCN, more like BMVP numbers):

No matter how depressing this thread looks, it's safe to say dudes at BMVP with the same numbers (rank, whatever) are in worse shape than you guys, and DNCG is worse off than them, and non t-14 are worse off then them... right?

Wrong.

I'd be curious to hear thoughts on this one way or the other. Mostly I think quakeroats is a knowitall with unsubstantiated claims, but if he's right I have a vested interest in knowing so.

I think CLS/NYU students are clearly better-off than the rest of the T14, but the "mini tiers" are pretty meaningless after that. Based on the hard and anecdotal data I've seen, I'd say:

Over-performing: P/D (strong NY placement), V (pre-select OGI), NU (work exp, engineers).
Under-performing: B (soft CA market), Chi/M (terrible OCS).

[quakeroats]

i read the first couple of pages and just wanted to confirm something with yall (i'm a clueless 0L hoping for CCN, more like BMVP numbers):

No matter how depressing this thread looks, it's safe to say dudes at BMVP with the same numbers (rank, whatever) are in worse shape than you guys, and DNCG is worse off than them, and non t-14 are worse off then them... right?

Wrong.

I'd be curious to hear thoughts on this one way or the other. Mostly I think quakeroats is a knowitall with unsubstantiated claims, but if he's right I have a vested interest in knowing so.

My point was that a sliding scale doesn't really work. Holding all other things constant (and that's hard to do with this many schools), if you're at the the very top of the class there isn't all that much difference between CCN and 7-14. Ditto if you're well under median. Where it matters is the interquartile range, and even within that it doesn't move in such a way that you can accurately say what the quoted poster said.

[Kohinoor]

i read the first couple of pages and just wanted to confirm something with yall (i'm a clueless 0L hoping for CCN, more like BMVP numbers):

No matter how depressing this thread looks, it's safe to say dudes at BMVP with the same numbers (rank, whatever) are in worse shape than you guys, and DNCG is worse off than them, and non t-14 are worse off then them... right?

Yes.

[KMaine]

i read the first couple of pages and just wanted to confirm something with yall (i'm a clueless 0L hoping for CCN, more like BMVP numbers):

No matter how depressing this thread looks, it's safe to say dudes at BMVP with the same numbers (rank, whatever) are in worse shape than you guys, and DNCG is worse off than them, and non t-14 are worse off then them... right?

Yes.

Do you really think it is tougher to get a Biglaw job coming out of Northwestern than coming out of Michigan? I am not sure I would categorically say that.

[Kohinoor]

i read the first couple of pages and just wanted to confirm something with yall (i'm a clueless 0L hoping for CCN, more like BMVP numbers):

No matter how depressing this thread looks, it's safe to say dudes at BMVP with the same numbers (rank, whatever) are in worse shape than you guys, and DNCG is worse off than them, and non t-14 are worse off then them... right?

Yes.

Do you really think it is tougher to get a Biglaw job coming out of Northwestern than coming out of Michigan? I am not sure I would categorically say that.

The difference may not merit even an additional 10000 in tuition but I think its there.

[KMaine]

Interesting. Sorry for continuing the derail. I have never been convinced that Michigan is better than the others in terms of Biglaw.

[quakeroats]

Interesting. Sorry for continuing the derail. I have never been convinced that Michigan is better than the others in terms of Biglaw.

At the moment, it's basically Cornell with more reach outside of New York--and that's a charitable reading. However, it's been trending down for the last 30 years and will probably continue following its namesake down the rankings. You can only fly on the success of yesteryear for so long.

[Anonymous User]

Interesting. Sorry for continuing the derail. I have never been convinced that Michigan is better than the others in terms of Biglaw.

At the moment, it's basically Cornell with more reach outside of New York--and that's a charitable reading. However, it's been trending down for the last 30 years and will probably continue following its namesake down the rankings. You can only fly on the success of yesteryear for so long.

Duke 1Ls should not be trolling in the legal employment forum.

I am Mich 2L who recently went through OCI. We don't have complete OCI stats, but out of the 15 or so people I've spoken to about jobs, 13 out of the 15 landed biglaw out of OCI. Maybe people I know well enough to talk about jobs with is at median or above (I actually don't know their grades, but only 1 of them is on law review), but from what I've seen and heard about Mich's OCI as well as peer schools' OCIs, it seems like Mich is placing at least as well as our peer schools, if not better than some of them, and is holding its own.

[rayiner]

i read the first couple of pages and just wanted to confirm something with yall (i'm a clueless 0L hoping for CCN, more like BMVP numbers):

No matter how depressing this thread looks, it's safe to say dudes at BMVP with the same numbers (rank, whatever) are in worse shape than you guys, and DNCG is worse off than them, and non t-14 are worse off then them... right?

Yes.

Do you really think it is tougher to get a Biglaw job coming out of Northwestern than coming out of Michigan? I am not sure I would categorically say that.

Not only would I not say that categorically, I'm not sure I'd say that at all.

The V50 placement data from a couple of years ago: http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/

Wachtell: Neither
Cravath: NU 3, M 2
SullCrom: NU 0, M 1
Skadden: NU 9, M 8
Davis Polk: NU 1, M 5
Simpson: NU 3, M 5
Latham: NU 23, M 13
Cleary: NU 3, M 1
Weil: NU 3, M 4
Covington: NU 3, M 6
Kirkland: NU 16, M 8
Debevoise: NU 0, M 5
Wilmer: NU 1, M 1
Sidley: NU 11, M M 4
W&C: NU 0, M 4
Paul Weiss: NU 0, M 1
Gibson: NU 0, M 1
---------------
Total: NU 76, M 69

Note that NU had 234 grads in C/O 2007, and M had 365 grads.

I don't have much ITE data, but I do know Kirkland/Chi had 11 NU, 3-4 M last year, and Davis Polk had 4 NU and 0 M.

EDIT: And don't bring up clerkships... this is 2L SA data.

[quakeroats]

Interesting. Sorry for continuing the derail. I have never been convinced that Michigan is better than the others in terms of Biglaw.

At the moment, it's basically Cornell with more reach outside of New York--and that's a charitable reading. However, it's been trending down for the last 30 years and will probably continue following its namesake down the rankings. You can only fly on the success of yesteryear for so long.

Duke 1Ls should not be trolling in the legal employment forum.

I am Mich 2L who recently went through OCI. We don't have complete OCI stats, but out of the 15 or so people I've spoken to about jobs, 13 out of the 15 landed biglaw out of OCI. Maybe people I know well enough to talk about jobs with is at median or above (I actually don't know their grades, but only 1 of them is on law review), but from what I've seen and heard about Mich's OCI as well as peer schools' OCIs, it seems like Mich is placing at least as well as our peer schools, if not better than some of them, and is holding its own.

You should ask the 3Ls about last year's OCI and see how that compared.

[quakeroats]

i read the first couple of pages and just wanted to confirm something with yall (i'm a clueless 0L hoping for CCN, more like BMVP numbers):

No matter how depressing this thread looks, it's safe to say dudes at BMVP with the same numbers (rank, whatever) are in worse shape than you guys, and DNCG is worse off than them, and non t-14 are worse off then them... right?

Yes.

Do you really think it is tougher to get a Biglaw job coming out of Northwestern than coming out of Michigan? I am not sure I would categorically say that.

Not only would I not say that categorically, I'm not sure I'd say that at all.

The V50 placement data from a couple of years ago: http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/

Wachtell: Neither
Cravath: NU 3, M 2
SullCrom: NU 0, M 1
Skadden: NU 9, M 8
Davis Polk: NU 1, M 5
Simpson: NU 3, M 5
Latham: NU 23, M 13
Cleary: NU 3, M 1
Weil: NU 3, M 4
Covington: NU 3, M 6
Kirkland: NU 16, M 8
Debevoise: NU 0, M 5
Wilmer: NU 1, M 1
Sidley: NU 11, M M 4
W&C: NU 0, M 4
Paul Weiss: NU 0, M 1
Gibson: NU 0, M 1
---------------
Total: NU 76, M 69

Note that NU had 234 grads in C/O 2007, and M had 365 grads.

I don't have much ITE data, but I do know Kirkland/Chi had 11 NU, 3-4 M last year, and Davis Polk had 4 NU and 0 M.

EDIT: And don't bring up clerkships... this is 2L SA data.

Vault 100 from the same year:

4 Columbia 80.2%
3 Harvard 74.1%
6 Chicago 71.4%
1 Yale 68.8%
2 Stanford 65.9%
4 NYU 61.2%
11 Duke 55.8%
12 Northwestern 53.1%
7 Penn 49.4%
13 Cornell 43.0%
8 Virginia 41.4%
8 Michigan 41.3%
14 Georgetown 34.4%
16 Texas 28.7%
8 Boalt 27.7%
15 UCLA 19.9%

[showNprove]

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[quakeroats]

I remember when Cornell used to have the worst trolls on TLS. That was back around when the board would ponder the possibility of the T13. I think the Cornell students were trying to save face, making sure we knew they were more than the bottom of the top. Now that we're contemplating a T12, the Duke trolls are overcompensating with their own egregious trolling.

We hear you, #12. Now please take a deep breath and relax a minute.

A sentient TLS is pretty scary, almost as scary as Michigan's continued slide from 3 to wherever it ends up--and the inability of its students to look beyond USNWR.

[KMaine]

I remember when Cornell used to have the worst trolls on TLS. That was back around when the board would ponder the possibility of the T13. I think the Cornell students were trying to save face, making sure we knew they were more than the bottom of the top. Now that we're contemplating a T12, the Duke trolls are overcompensating with their own egregious trolling.

We hear you, #12. Now please take a deep breath and relax a minute.

Wouldn't having a t-13 make Cornell the bottom of the top? The reason I posed the question in the first place was that I have always thought Michigan was a little overrated. Not sure how giving statistics that seem to back up the idea that Michigan does not quite preform up to their ranking Biglaw-wise makes somebody a troll. I liked both Duke and Michigan, I got into both, I decided to go to neither. It has worked out well. Don't see why it is such a big deal to suggest that the typical TLS tiers do not necessarily correlate perfectly to Biglaw placement.

[rayiner]

I remember when Cornell used to have the worst trolls on TLS. That was back around when the board would ponder the possibility of the T13. I think the Cornell students were trying to save face, making sure we knew they were more than the bottom of the top. Now that we're contemplating a T12, the Duke trolls are overcompensating with their own egregious trolling.

We hear you, #12. Now please take a deep breath and relax a minute.

Wouldn't having a t-13 make Cornell the bottom of the top? The reason I posed the question in the first place was that I have always thought Michigan was a little overrated. Not sure how giving statistics that seem to back up the idea that Michigan does not quite preform up to their ranking Biglaw-wise makes somebody a troll. I liked both Duke and Michigan, I got into both, I decided to go to neither. It has worked out well. Don't see why it is such a big deal to suggest that the typical TLS tiers do not necessarily correlate perfectly to Biglaw placement.

+1.

It's not trolling so much as a response to the oft-repeated but never-substantiated claims that there is an "MVPB" tier distinct from the "DNCG" tier for the purposes of placement.

[IAFG]

In a strong economy, Michigan is a great school to place from. You can make a strong case from Michigan for a lot of markets.

[quakeroats]

In a strong economy, Texas is a great school to place from. You can make a strong case from Texas for a lot of markets.

We're going over relative placement, not absolute placement.

[showNprove]

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[quakeroats]

I remember when Cornell used to have the worst trolls on TLS. That was back around when the board would ponder the possibility of the T13. I think the Cornell students were trying to save face, making sure we knew they were more than the bottom of the top. Now that we're contemplating a T12, the Duke trolls are overcompensating with their own egregious trolling.

We hear you, #12. Now please take a deep breath and relax a minute.

A sentient TLS is pretty scary, almost as scary as Michigan's continued slide from 3 to wherever it ends up--and the inability of its students to look beyond USNWR.

That would have almost hurt my feelings if I was a Michigan Law student.

Duke, the 12th best school in the country, does in fact place as about as well as MVPB. Now, how much that has to do with the school paying students to work so that their employers don't have to, I don't know. But it does place similarly well.

You've cited nothing beyond USNWR, and even that you misstated. I and others have put forward a great deal of data on placement. Literally all of it points to Mighigan performing worse than its supposed peers. Duke and Penn placement numbers look more like NYU than Michigan. If you have anything beyond a conclusory, "they're peers, that settles it," post it. The payments for students wouldn't affect what I've posted as the students are a small fraction of the class who aren't working at Vault 100 firms.

[Anonymous User]

You've cited nothing beyond USNWR, and even that you misstated. I and others have put forward a great deal of data on placement. Literally all of it points to Mighigan performing worse than its supposed peers. Duke and Penn placement numbers look more like NYU than Michigan. If you have anything beyond a conclusory, "they're peers, that settles it," post it. The payments for students wouldn't affect what I've posted as the students are a small fraction of the class who aren't working at Vault 100 firms.

You're making a classic 1L mistake of considering placement #s outside of the context of the particularized factual situation.

A Duke 1L who is comparing law school dick size on the TLS Employment Forum in late October instead of outlining or working on a memo will not place as well as a Michigan student who puts ordinary efforts into studying.

HTH

[rayiner]

You've cited nothing beyond USNWR, and even that you misstated. I and others have put forward a great deal of data on placement. Literally all of it points to Mighigan performing worse than its supposed peers. Duke and Penn placement numbers look more like NYU than Michigan. If you have anything beyond a conclusory, "they're peers, that settles it," post it. The payments for students wouldn't affect what I've posted as the students are a small fraction of the class who aren't working at Vault 100 firms.

You're making a classic 1L mistake of considering placement #s outside of the context of the particularized factual situation.

I'm a 2L who has done OCI and I have no idea what you're talking about...

[quakeroats]

A Duke 1L who is comparing law school dick size on the TLS Employment Forum in late October instead of outlining or working on a memo will not place as well as a Michigan student who puts ordinary efforts into studying.

HTH

This would make for an interesting flow chart.

[tlslsnlsp]

interesting to read all this as an 0L... i must admit i also had always thought the t14 was divided pretty neatly between YHS / CCN / BMVP / DNCG... but it looks like a lot of you believe the BMVP / DN distinction is a bit blurred? perhaps it's more YHS / CCN / BMVPDN / CG?