NY GOES TO 180k! IT HAPPENED!!!! (CovingTTTon does a 180! Holder wept.) Forum

[dixiecupdrinking]

Aside from "it's not fair that salaries are stagnant," what reason is there for firms to increase?

Almost everyone I know at my school who had the choice to go to boutiques instead of biglaw did so. Maybe they aren't valuing the upper end of the class anymore, perhaps rightly so - any argument that top grades = top biglaw performers isn't super compelling to me, and you can probably snag the tip-top by offering crazy scotus clerk/bristow bonuses or whatever. But the idea would be - they'll raise if they perceive they're losing valuable candidates to firms that wouldn't have the cash flow to match + those candidates are going to take the highest offer.

Or the predatory pricing thing above, I guess

Sure except this is empirically not an issue for any big law firm, certainly not the ones that could afford the increase.

When Cravath can't go to Columbia and hire 100 junior associates in an afternoon, maybe we'll see raises. But I see zero evidence any major firm has any problem with recruitment.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Aside from "it's not fair that salaries are stagnant," what reason is there for firms to increase?

I mean, the quality of entry level lawyers is getting worse and it will continue to do so until no one with an IQ over 115 wants to go to law school, so you could question how crappy of associates firms will tolerate.

And if in house compensation increases faster than Biglaw compensation, that's more incentive for associates to leave.

And it would help morale, which does actually matter w/r/t to productivity.

Not that any of those things will have an effect now, but push eventually has to come to shove.

[dixiecupdrinking]

Aside from "it's not fair that salaries are stagnant," what reason is there for firms to increase?

Competition with IH positions for talent. More relevant for mid-level and senior salary tho -- most companies aren't looking to hire at entry level because they can't / don't want to invest in the training.

Yeah it starts to make some sense at mid/senior levels but that doesn't explain the 190 thing. Also, bonuses work just as well to accomplish the kind of retention they want. They don't want senior associates to stick around forever, they just want to grind out their 5th years another couple of years.

[dixiecupdrinking]

Aside from "it's not fair that salaries are stagnant," what reason is there for firms to increase?

I mean, the quality of entry level lawyers is getting worse and it will continue to do so until no one with an IQ over 115 wants to go to law school, so you could question how crappy of associates firms will tolerate.

And if in house compensation increases faster than Biglaw compensation, that's more incentive for associates to leave.

And it would help morale, which does actually matter w/r/t to productivity.

Not that any of those things will have an effect now, but push eventually has to come to shove.

Yeah but I question how much if at all the fact that their junior associates had LSAT scores 3 points lower than their mid levels matters or is even evident to firms. I think the talent pool is "good enough" and will be for the foreseeable future.

Morale is honestly a good reason but giving 20% raises is a pretty fucking blunt instrument for accomplishing that, especially for firms that constantly choose not to do a million smaller, cheaper things to improve morale.

[SplitMyPants]

I think people are too quick to write off the pressure from secondaries moving up. Anecdotal, but part of the reason I chose NY over my home secondary is because the secondary's lock-step is sps. If secondaries continue to move, why wouldn't NY?

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Yeah but I question how much if at all the fact that their junior associates had LSAT scores 3 points lower than their mid levels matters or is even evident to firms. I think the talent pool is "good enough" and will be for the foreseeable future.

Morale is honestly a good reason but giving 20% raises is a pretty fucking blunt instrument for accomplishing that, especially for firms that constantly choose not to do a million smaller, cheaper things to improve morale.

I have no idea what "good enough" is for firms but if T14 schools get smaller that will probably have more of an effect than their standards dropping.

I still believe in #STAGNATION2016 and probably beyond though.

[smaug]

Secondaries can move salary up because they're not part of the PPP war, which is the only eat that matters for management of most of the firms who could move NY market.

Only way I see NY base comp moving is the same thing that moved it the first time: too few PE associates at firms where that is the bread and butter because people who would do PE are moving directly business side.

KE and STB are the only firms subject to those pressures in a serious way.

I guess tech transactions could take off again or something, but I think people who aren't just trolling ITT should pin their hopes to a return to better bonuses and give up on base comp dreams.

[TLSModBot]

responding to some of the 'quality of associates' discussion above: fewer 'high quality' associates are likely to be more tolerable as I think we're going to see one of two things: 1. commoditization of work that allows for lower skill (and thus lower paid) workers to take on more work traditionally done by associates (for example, Doc review was once primarily in the hands of associates, then first level review shifted to contract attorneys, and now you're seeing doc review management and other higher level functions being outsourced to contract attorneys and consulting firms) or 2. a reduction in the need or utilization of junior associates (automation rather than just commoditization of basic tasks - we're seeing this in doc review for lit and in contract analysis in transactional stuff). Number 2 might become even more likely if we shift away from the billable hour model - it encourages efficiencies which might drive down raw number of man hours needed in Big Law work.

tl;dr just lol if you think there's ever going to be a shortage of associates or that quality of associates will affect base rate comp.

[jbagelboy]

God. This is depressing.

I actually regret going to law school now, on the balance, despite attending my favorite/top choice school. Maybe if I'd gone with no debt I'd feel differently but that's about the only possible way.

The profession just kind of serms like its slowly decaying into a kafkaesque nightmare

[Tiago Splitter]

God. This is depressing.

I actually regret going to law school now, on the balance, despite attending my favorite/top choice school. Maybe if I'd gone with no debt I'd feel differently but that's about the only possible way.

NY to 161!!


please

[smaug]

God. This is depressing.

I actually regret going to law school now, on the balance, despite attending my favorite/top choice school. Maybe if I'd gone with no debt I'd feel differently but that's about the only possible way.

The profession just kind of serms like its slowly decaying into a kafkaesque nightmare

I remember having that feeling 2/3L but I'm more at peace with things now. That said I'm still in the six month grace period before I'm supposed to hate my life, so maybe I should keep my mouth shut.

[jbagelboy]

God. This is depressing.

I actually regret going to law school now, on the balance, despite attending my favorite/top choice school. Maybe if I'd gone with no debt I'd feel differently but that's about the only possible way.

The profession just kind of serms like its slowly decaying into a kafkaesque nightmare

I remember having that feeling 2/3L but I'm more at peace with things now. That said I'm still in the six month grace period before I'm supposed to hate my life, so maybe I should keep my mouth shut.

So are you saying it gets better?

TLS should make promotional "it gets better" videos from practicing attorneys. (I realize how entitled and awful this joke is).

Except they would all actually say 'it gets worse' because that's the tls mantra. I had a fun time in law school but now that its basically over I'm facing near certainty of unhappiness and career stagnation

Maybe I need to hiatus

[Anonymous User]

It's getting pretty interesting at my firm. People are leaving earlier in their careers to go IH and are taking much smaller cuts and, in some cases, for more junior associates, end up getting raises. That's in addition to better hours, better benefits (more vacations, guaranteed slow months, like August), 401K matches and at some places actual pensions. It used to be that people had to take big pay cuts to get out, but that's less and less true.

Come to think of it, I am kind of hoping pay doesn't go up. It's miserable here but I might talk myself into staying if it did.

[TLSModBot]

God. This is depressing.

I actually regret going to law school now, on the balance, despite attending my favorite/top choice school. Maybe if I'd gone with no debt I'd feel differently but that's about the only possible way.

The profession just kind of serms like its slowly decaying into a kafkaesque nightmare

I remember having that feeling 2/3L but I'm more at peace with things now. That said I'm still in the six month grace period before I'm supposed to hate my life, so maybe I should keep my mouth shut.

So are you saying it gets better?

TLS should make promotional "it gets better" videos from practicing attorneys. (I realize how entitled and awful this joke is).

Except they would all actually say 'it gets worse' because that's the tls mantra. I had a fun time in law school but now that its basically over I'm facing near certainty of unhappiness and career stagnation

Maybe I need to hiatus

I think it's not so much "it gets better" as "You get more apathetic/resigned"

[kcdc1]

Also, bonuses work just as well [as base salary] to accomplish the kind of retention they want.

Don't think this is strictly true. Base salary can be a more cost-effective vehicle for retention than bonuses if the employee is more risk-averse than the employer. For example, I might take a guaranteed 80k salary over a 50k base salary with 100k bonus potential because I don't want the risk. An employer might then be able to retain me for less total compensation by converting variable compensation to base salary.

[Anonymous User]

Aside from "it's not fair that salaries are stagnant," what reason is there for firms to increase?

Almost everyone I know at my school who had the choice to go to boutiques instead of biglaw did so. Maybe they aren't valuing the upper end of the class anymore, perhaps rightly so - any argument that top grades = top biglaw performers isn't super compelling to me, and you can probably snag the tip-top by offering crazy scotus clerk/bristow bonuses or whatever. But the idea would be - they'll raise if they perceive they're losing valuable candidates to firms that wouldn't have the cash flow to match + those candidates are going to take the highest offer.

Or the predatory pricing thing above, I guess

Super prestigious DC boutiques often pay less than market for base anyway so that's not much pressure on biglaw to raise salaries, and the reason COA clerks take those jobs isn't money, it's work that biglaw can't get, ironically often because the prestigious shop charges less.

[dixiecupdrinking]

God. This is depressing.

I actually regret going to law school now, on the balance, despite attending my favorite/top choice school. Maybe if I'd gone with no debt I'd feel differently but that's about the only possible way.

The profession just kind of serms like its slowly decaying into a kafkaesque nightmare

Another 30k wouldn't change anything. It would be a bandaid at best.

[seespotrun]

God. This is depressing.

I actually regret going to law school now, on the balance, despite attending my favorite/top choice school. Maybe if I'd gone with no debt I'd feel differently but that's about the only possible way.

The profession just kind of serms like its slowly decaying into a kafkaesque nightmare

Another 30k wouldn't change anything. It would be a bandaid at best.

I would fucking kill you for $30k. Slit your throat like a pig.

$30k is real money.

[beepboopbeep]

Aside from "it's not fair that salaries are stagnant," what reason is there for firms to increase?

Almost everyone I know at my school who had the choice to go to boutiques instead of biglaw did so. Maybe they aren't valuing the upper end of the class anymore, perhaps rightly so - any argument that top grades = top biglaw performers isn't super compelling to me, and you can probably snag the tip-top by offering crazy scotus clerk/bristow bonuses or whatever. But the idea would be - they'll raise if they perceive they're losing valuable candidates to firms that wouldn't have the cash flow to match + those candidates are going to take the highest offer.

Or the predatory pricing thing above, I guess

Super prestigious DC boutiques often pay less than market for base anyway so that's not much pressure on biglaw to raise salaries, and the reason COA clerks take those jobs isn't money, it's work that biglaw can't get, ironically often because the prestigious shop charges less.

Yea I dunno. Not just talking DC though. There are a decent # of market-paying boutiques still and type-of-work isn't always the reason. Even if it's untrue there's some perception of lifestyle differences (that probably also hold true w/ secondaries) (and may not be actually true across-the-board in either, but that's the lawl student perception at least)

The IH comp point is better than mine tho, that makes way more sense. But even that seems to mostly be a mid-level thing and as was pointed out earlier in the thread, you don't need to increase starting salaries to pay mid-levels more. Maybe if some of the bigger in-house gigs start hiring more fresh-out but seems like they have good reason not to.

[DELG]

God. This is depressing.

I actually regret going to law school now, on the balance, despite attending my favorite/top choice school. Maybe if I'd gone with no debt I'd feel differently but that's about the only possible way.

The profession just kind of serms like its slowly decaying into a kafkaesque nightmare

Another 30k wouldn't change anything. It would be a bandaid at best.

I would fucking kill you for $30k. Slit your throat like a pig.

$30k is real money.

Ugh after tax it really isn't

[orangecup]

I wouldn't mind an extra 18-20k after tax. Means actually being able to afford some things for myself and paying down loans faster.

[seespotrun]

God. This is depressing.

I actually regret going to law school now, on the balance, despite attending my favorite/top choice school. Maybe if I'd gone with no debt I'd feel differently but that's about the only possible way.

The profession just kind of serms like its slowly decaying into a kafkaesque nightmare

Another 30k wouldn't change anything. It would be a bandaid at best.

I would fucking kill you for $30k. Slit your throat like a pig.

$30k is real money.

Ugh after tax it really isn't

I'd still murder dixiecup for it.

[dixiecupdrinking]

Another 30k wouldn't change anything. It would be a bandaid at best.

I would fucking kill you for $30k. Slit your throat like a pig.

$30k is real money.

Ugh after tax it really isn't

I'd still murder dixiecup for it.

Like I said, $30k wouldn't change anything.

[jbagelboy]

When I said NODEBT might cause me to have fewer regrets, I'm talking about $100,000+, not $30k

And its not the amount of the raise itself in monetary terms that matters so much, its the fact that salaries are completely stagnant over nearly a decade with essentially no hope of upward momentum that depresses me. Even if it was just NY to 170 in 2016 that would have been huge for my outlook on the profession I'm about to enter.

[sprezz]

Even if it was just NY to 170 in 2016 that would have been huge for my outlook on the profession I'm about to enter.

well, this would be silly/irrational though, right? like, one $10k raise since 200whenever would still leave expectations at 170k base for your entire career as an associate (class year raises notwithstanding). still stagnant, still no real evidence of upward momentum. 190, though....