Milbank/Davis Polk/Cravath Scale: NYC to 215-415k Forum

[Anonymous User]

So as a first-year lit associate, how do I know if I suck? I'm pretty lazy--don't actively seek out work when perhaps I could--but I get things done on time, get along with everyone, and generally people seem to like my work?

Is it possible to coast but still be a "good junior"? Specifically asking about lit.

This means you meet the bare minimum and shouldn't be fired/aren't a garbage junior. But that does not make you a "good" junior.

[Anonymous User]

So as a first-year lit associate, how do I know if I suck? I'm pretty lazy--don't actively seek out work when perhaps I could--but I get things done on time, get along with everyone, and generally people seem to like my work?

Is it possible to coast but still be a "good junior"? Specifically asking about lit.

Depends on the firm, but in my experience if you kill what you get, usually the work will come to you anyway. I think jr’s that suck are ones that don’t understand assignments and you end up having to basically redo everything they do. For instance I ask them to diligence a bunch of contracts, but they always miss things, so I know I’ll need to do a second review myself, which makes me wonder why we pay them.

[Anonymous User]

So as a first-year lit associate, how do I know if I suck? I'm pretty lazy--don't actively seek out work when perhaps I could--but I get things done on time, get along with everyone, and generally people seem to like my work?

Is it possible to coast but still be a "good junior"? Specifically asking about lit.

Sorry this is kindof useless "advice," but as a 6th year civil lit associate at a V50, I'd say: When I started in 2016 - absolutely; coasting and doing mostly mindless gigantic doc reviews (a.k.a. "chillable hours") was totally fine, and no one cared until you were a third year or so.

Unfortunately for you, times have changed it seems like. So many associates (at my firm at least) have quit and the labor market is so tight, so work that used to go to 3rd/4th years is now going to 2nd and even 1st years, and if first years don't take the work, they get "talked to" waaayyyy sooner than they would have five years ago.

[Anonymous User]

So as a first-year lit associate, how do I know if I suck? I'm pretty lazy--don't actively seek out work when perhaps I could--but I get things done on time, get along with everyone, and generally people seem to like my work?

Is it possible to coast but still be a "good junior"? Specifically asking about lit.

If you do the work you are assigned, in a timely fashion, at decent quality, and enough of it - you are a perfectly adequate junior associate. Even better if you personally get along with colleagues.

Juniors (let alone first years) need not sweat about not seeking out extra work or “seeing around corners” on cases and proactively doing stuff, because most of them aren’t very good at it and it’s the job of seniors/midlevels to do those things and then assign juniors the proper tasks. I’ve worked with a junior to whom I assigned a research project - I got it back from them with an explanation that X issue led to Y issue which led to Z issue, so they wrote up a memo about all three. But I only wanted X issue. And it turned out that Y and Z were not relevant and I would have told him that if he had just asked me. But I knew that he was doing what he thought was a good thing (he was wrong).

[Anonymous User]

So as a first-year lit associate, how do I know if I suck? I'm pretty lazy--don't actively seek out work when perhaps I could--but I get things done on time, get along with everyone, and generally people seem to like my work?

Is it possible to coast but still be a "good junior"? Specifically asking about lit.

If you do the work you are assigned, in a timely fashion, at decent quality, and enough of it - you are a perfectly adequate junior associate. Even better if you personally get along with colleagues.

Juniors (let alone first years) need not sweat about not seeking out extra work or “seeing around corners” on cases and proactively doing stuff, because most of them aren’t very good at it and it’s the job of seniors/midlevels to do those things and then assign juniors the proper tasks. I’ve worked with a junior to whom I assigned a research project - I got it back from them with an explanation that X issue led to Y issue which led to Z issue, so they wrote up a memo about all three. But I only wanted X issue. And it turned out that Y and Z were not relevant and I would have told him that if he had just asked me. But I knew that he was doing what he thought was a good thing (he was wrong).

This is why juniors should go back to getting paid $160K/year and the difference should be reallocated to 3rd years+

[Anonymous User]

So as a first-year lit associate, how do I know if I suck? I'm pretty lazy--don't actively seek out work when perhaps I could--but I get things done on time, get along with everyone, and generally people seem to like my work?

Is it possible to coast but still be a "good junior"? Specifically asking about lit.

If you do the work you are assigned, in a timely fashion, at decent quality, and enough of it - you are a perfectly adequate junior associate. Even better if you personally get along with colleagues.

Juniors (let alone first years) need not sweat about not seeking out extra work or “seeing around corners” on cases and proactively doing stuff, because most of them aren’t very good at it and it’s the job of seniors/midlevels to do those things and then assign juniors the proper tasks. I’ve worked with a junior to whom I assigned a research project - I got it back from them with an explanation that X issue led to Y issue which led to Z issue, so they wrote up a memo about all three. But I only wanted X issue. And it turned out that Y and Z were not relevant and I would have told him that if he had just asked me. But I knew that he was doing what he thought was a good thing (he was wrong).

This is why juniors should go back to getting paid $160K/year and the difference should be reallocated to 3rd years+

Honestly, juniors should be on the UK trainee model where they get paid like $80k/year for two years as a type of internship to learn the ropes. No reason people should be getting $225k to send out signature pages, totally crazy.

[Anonymous User]

This is why juniors should go back to getting paid $160K/year and the difference should be reallocated to 3rd years+

[Anonymous User]

So as a first-year lit associate, how do I know if I suck? I'm pretty lazy--don't actively seek out work when perhaps I could--but I get things done on time, get along with everyone, and generally people seem to like my work?

Is it possible to coast but still be a "good junior"? Specifically asking about lit.

If you do the work you are assigned, in a timely fashion, at decent quality, and enough of it - you are a perfectly adequate junior associate. Even better if you personally get along with colleagues.

Juniors (let alone first years) need not sweat about not seeking out extra work or “seeing around corners” on cases and proactively doing stuff, because most of them aren’t very good at it and it’s the job of seniors/midlevels to do those things and then assign juniors the proper tasks. I’ve worked with a junior to whom I assigned a research project - I got it back from them with an explanation that X issue led to Y issue which led to Z issue, so they wrote up a memo about all three. But I only wanted X issue. And it turned out that Y and Z were not relevant and I would have told him that if he had just asked me. But I knew that he was doing what he thought was a good thing (he was wrong).

This is why juniors should go back to getting paid $160K/year and the difference should be reallocated to 3rd years+

Honestly, juniors should be on the UK trainee model where they get paid like $80k/year for two years as a type of internship to learn the ropes. No reason people should be getting $225k to send out signature pages, totally crazy.

Yes, leaving aside the fact that t14 schools cost over 300k a year while the equivalent british education would be 1/5th to 1/10th of the cost.

[woopig2017]

So as a first-year lit associate, how do I know if I suck? I'm pretty lazy--don't actively seek out work when perhaps I could--but I get things done on time, get along with everyone, and generally people seem to like my work?

Is it possible to coast but still be a "good junior"? Specifically asking about lit.

If you do the work you are assigned, in a timely fashion, at decent quality, and enough of it - you are a perfectly adequate junior associate. Even better if you personally get along with colleagues.

Juniors (let alone first years) need not sweat about not seeking out extra work or “seeing around corners” on cases and proactively doing stuff, because most of them aren’t very good at it and it’s the job of seniors/midlevels to do those things and then assign juniors the proper tasks. I’ve worked with a junior to whom I assigned a research project - I got it back from them with an explanation that X issue led to Y issue which led to Z issue, so they wrote up a memo about all three. But I only wanted X issue. And it turned out that Y and Z were not relevant and I would have told him that if he had just asked me. But I knew that he was doing what he thought was a good thing (he was wrong).

This is why juniors should go back to getting paid $160K/year and the difference should be reallocated to 3rd years+

Honestly, juniors should be on the UK trainee model where they get paid like $80k/year for two years as a type of internship to learn the ropes. No reason people should be getting $225k to send out signature pages, totally crazy.

Good luck getting qualified individuals to deal with the availability expectations for that $. That is why juniors get paid what they do, full stop.

[Anonymous User]

Can we get back on topic.

DPW should match Brewski

What are the chances v10 matches 235K as base comp? Slim but...

[Anonymous User]

I feel like it’s not uncommon to be fairly smart, but being a true grinder is an valuable gift and skill that’s being discounted here.

[Anonymous User]

I feel like it’s not uncommon to be fairly smart, but being a true grinder is an valuable gift and skill that’s being discounted here.

Grinding for the sake of grinding is absolutely not a skill but a burden. That's what makes law firms so miserable...people grind to grind and hit hours, regardless if it's actually value adding. Coming from a corporate job before law school, I'd get a pretty stern talking to by my manager if I worked like I do at a law firm.

[Anonymous User]

Can we get back on topic.

DPW should match Brewski

What are the chances v10 matches 235K as base comp? Slim but...

So you're telling me there's a chance...

https://youtu.be/KX5jNnDMfxA?t=13

[Anonymous User]

This back and forth about how low the intelligence bar is for juniors is obviously a lit vs transactional debate. As a 1st year lit associate at a V10 I was second chairing depositions and oral arguments, writing first drafts of dispositive motions, and prepping minor witness (all with appropriate oversight). Sure there were some junior associates who just did doc review for two years but lots of my peers had similar experiences to mine. As a midlevel, I’d rather a junior associate who can issue spot and write well, over an associate who is careless because s/he is on track to bill 2700 hours and hasn’t slept all week. In lit you have paralegals and contract reviewers to do the shit work, and if your associates are grinding on meaningless tasks it’s because you’re not managing your case effectively.

[Anonymous User]

Serious question: why wouldn't the V50+ match Brewer? I always thought they were just your run of the mill biglaw firm; have they always been an above-market boutique?

[Anonymous User]

This back and forth about how low the intelligence bar is for juniors is obviously a lit vs transactional debate. As a 1st year lit associate at a V10 I was second chairing depositions and oral arguments, writing first drafts of dispositive motions, and prepping minor witness (all with appropriate oversight).

Sounds like mid-level lit work must be brain-dead if first years are able to take on the task. The only truth is that literally all first years are awful

NY to 235k

[Anonymous User]

Serious question: why wouldn't the V50+ match Brewer? I always thought they were just your run of the mill biglaw firm; have they always been an above-market boutique?

I count 19 attorneys on their site. Might help their recruiting but it's not exactly going to cause an exodus from V50s. https://www.brewerattorneys.com/team-1

[Buglaw]

So as a first-year lit associate, how do I know if I suck? I'm pretty lazy--don't actively seek out work when perhaps I could--but I get things done on time, get along with everyone, and generally people seem to like my work?

Is it possible to coast but still be a "good junior"? Specifically asking about lit.

Sorry this is kindof useless "advice," but as a 6th year civil lit associate at a V50, I'd say: When I started in 2016 - absolutely; coasting and doing mostly mindless gigantic doc reviews (a.k.a. "chillable hours") was totally fine, and no one cared until you were a third year or so.

Unfortunately for you, times have changed it seems like. So many associates (at my firm at least) have quit and the labor market is so tight, so work that used to go to 3rd/4th years is now going to 2nd and even 1st years, and if first years don't take the work, they get "talked to" waaayyyy sooner than they would have five years ago.

So your firm doesn’t have enough associates to do the work they currently have and they have solved that problem by firing more people and increasing the standards to be employed???? Why would a tight labor market reach that result. If your firm is actually doing that, they are one of the only ones.

[ExpOriental]

Serious question: why wouldn't the V50+ match Brewer? I always thought they were just your run of the mill biglaw firm; have they always been an above-market boutique?

Do you even know anything about this firm? Are you sure you're not confusing it with something else?

The firm is beyond sketchy, and from what I can tell basically exists to siphon insane fees from the NRA to keep Wayne LaPierre and his cronies at the helm. No idea how you could get the impression that it's a "run of the mill biglaw firm."

Relatedly, no, there's no chance anyone is going to notice or care to match whatever the Brewer firm is paying.

[Anonymous User]

Alright look I got an A- in law firm finance seminar at YHSCCN so I can tell you exactly what's happening. (lol)

(but seriously) Think like a managing partner for a second. If v10 matches now, then v10 will be expected to pay increased salary all year and at least one mid year special bonus. If they all collectively agree to ignore this, DPW can SHATTER the millybank scale effective April 1 or July 1, with a 3 or 6 month true up disguised as a pretty fat "special bonus" (like 2018 or whatever year that happened). And the market will follow. Final result: DPW maintains its spot as top comp dog and they nip the firehose of *actual* special bonuses. Remember, firms DO NOT want to pay us these bonuses for the rest of forever. The gravy train has to end eventually.

The one big risk is whether all firms play ball (kind of a millionaire prisoner's dilemma). A cascading match would force DPW to abandon this plan and match/raise early. Debatably this has already started with Cooley but we'll see.

And take note that no recruiting season exists between now and April/July so there is not a real risk of recruiting issues until late summer/early fall. If peer firms are playing along, then your top talent will stay. They won't leave for a temporary pay increase.

[cfcm]

Serious question: why wouldn't the V50+ match Brewer? I always thought they were just your run of the mill biglaw firm; have they always been an above-market boutique?

Brewer has Attorneys AND Counselors. V50s just have attorneys.

[Anonymous User]

So as a first-year lit associate, how do I know if I suck? I'm pretty lazy--don't actively seek out work when perhaps I could--but I get things done on time, get along with everyone, and generally people seem to like my work?

Is it possible to coast but still be a "good junior"? Specifically asking about lit.

Sorry this is kindof useless "advice," but as a 6th year civil lit associate at a V50, I'd say: When I started in 2016 - absolutely; coasting and doing mostly mindless gigantic doc reviews (a.k.a. "chillable hours") was totally fine, and no one cared until you were a third year or so.

Unfortunately for you, times have changed it seems like. So many associates (at my firm at least) have quit and the labor market is so tight, so work that used to go to 3rd/4th years is now going to 2nd and even 1st years, and if first years don't take the work, they get "talked to" waaayyyy sooner than they would have five years ago.

So your firm doesn’t have enough associates to do the work they currently have and they have solved that problem by firing more people and increasing the standards to be employed???? Why would a tight labor market reach that result. If your firm is actually doing that, they are one of the only ones.

Nowhere did I say my firm is firing anyone (it's not) nor increasing standards to be employed, at least not to *get* employed. We like many others are taking any lateral with a pulse (not really, but you know what I mean), and there's still barely enough labor to staff all litigation matters. By "talked to" I mean literally just that - a midlevel partner talking to a junior associate about their hours and about how they "shouldn't be afraid" to take on more work, blah blah. I don't remember that ever happening when I was a junior unless you were billing less than 1000 hours.

What has increased over the past couple of years is hours and responsibility for more junior associates. And yeah, that has in turn increased turnover and people leaving to go in-house, to government, or lateral. Is it a dumb move on the partnership's part? Yeah probably, but they can't help themselves and don't know how to say no to moar work and billingz.

[Anonymous User]

So as a first-year lit associate, how do I know if I suck? I'm pretty lazy--don't actively seek out work when perhaps I could--but I get things done on time, get along with everyone, and generally people seem to like my work?

Is it possible to coast but still be a "good junior"? Specifically asking about lit.

Sorry this is kindof useless "advice," but as a 6th year civil lit associate at a V50, I'd say: When I started in 2016 - absolutely; coasting and doing mostly mindless gigantic doc reviews (a.k.a. "chillable hours") was totally fine, and no one cared until you were a third year or so.

Unfortunately for you, times have changed it seems like. So many associates (at my firm at least) have quit and the labor market is so tight, so work that used to go to 3rd/4th years is now going to 2nd and even 1st years, and if first years don't take the work, they get "talked to" waaayyyy sooner than they would have five years ago.

So your firm doesn’t have enough associates to do the work they currently have and they have solved that problem by firing more people and increasing the standards to be employed???? Why would a tight labor market reach that result. If your firm is actually doing that, they are one of the only ones.

Nowhere did I say my firm is firing anyone (it's not) nor increasing standards to be employed, at least not to *get* employed. We like many others are taking any lateral with a pulse (not really, but you know what I mean), and there's still barely enough labor to staff all litigation matters. By "talked to" I mean literally just that - a midlevel partner talking to a junior associate about their hours and about how they "shouldn't be afraid" to take on more work, blah blah. I don't remember that ever happening when I was a junior unless you were billing less than 1000 hours.

What has increased over the past couple of years is hours and responsibility for more junior associates. And yeah, that has in turn increased turnover and people leaving to go in-house, to government, or lateral. Is it a dumb move on the partnership's part? Yeah probably, but they can't help themselves and don't know how to say no to moar work and billingz.

This still doesn't make sense. Just give them more work.

[Buglaw]

So as a first-year lit associate, how do I know if I suck? I'm pretty lazy--don't actively seek out work when perhaps I could--but I get things done on time, get along with everyone, and generally people seem to like my work?

Is it possible to coast but still be a "good junior"? Specifically asking about lit.

Sorry this is kindof useless "advice," but as a 6th year civil lit associate at a V50, I'd say: When I started in 2016 - absolutely; coasting and doing mostly mindless gigantic doc reviews (a.k.a. "chillable hours") was totally fine, and no one cared until you were a third year or so.

Unfortunately for you, times have changed it seems like. So many associates (at my firm at least) have quit and the labor market is so tight, so work that used to go to 3rd/4th years is now going to 2nd and even 1st years, and if first years don't take the work, they get "talked to" waaayyyy sooner than they would have five years ago.

So your firm doesn’t have enough associates to do the work they currently have and they have solved that problem by firing more people and increasing the standards to be employed???? Why would a tight labor market reach that result. If your firm is actually doing that, they are one of the only ones.

Nowhere did I say my firm is firing anyone (it's not) nor increasing standards to be employed, at least not to *get* employed. We like many others are taking any lateral with a pulse (not really, but you know what I mean), and there's still barely enough labor to staff all litigation matters. By "talked to" I mean literally just that - a midlevel partner talking to a junior associate about their hours and about how they "shouldn't be afraid" to take on more work, blah blah. I don't remember that ever happening when I was a junior unless you were billing less than 1000 hours.

What has increased over the past couple of years is hours and responsibility for more junior associates. And yeah, that has in turn increased turnover and people leaving to go in-house, to government, or lateral. Is it a dumb move on the partnership's part? Yeah probably, but they can't help themselves and don't know how to say no to moar work and billingz.

Sorry, my misunderstanding. Usually when I see “talk” in quotes in relation to performance in big law it is a euphemism for getting fired.

[Anonymous User]

Sorry, my misunderstanding. Usually when I see “talk” in quotes in relation to performance in big law it is a euphemism for getting fired.

Yeah, I haven't heard of anyone getting that "talk" since Covid/labor market madness started. I've also never heard of anyone below year like 4 being told to start looking for another job, with the exception of one guy who was hired for one of our East Coast offices, showed up and said "transfer me to West Coast office or I quit," so the firm said "okay... you have three months to find whatever job you want on the West Coast, just not with us, good luck." And that was all before Covid/remote work. Now I'm sure most firms would accommodate that dude.