Milbank/Davis Polk/Cravath Scale: NYC to 215-415k Forum

[Anonymous User]

Ok guys. Focus. Back to making predictions based on arbitrary criteria on when DPW will finally say something. My vote is 4:35 PM tomorrow.

Honestly whoever said "DPW maybe planned a March bonus announcement and isn't going to let Milbank change their schedule" was probably right. They probably "decided" to match the moment Milbank announced, it's pretty much a no brainer, and at this point there's not much of another explanation for the delay, and there's certainly no reason to believe the 28th day after Milbank would be any different from the 27th (today, not that I'm counting).

I say second week of March.

Are those criteria arbitrary enough?

But if this is the case, why not match Milbank in January and then just announce a bonus in March? What does DPW have to gain by delaying its announce of a comp match until it can coincide with a bonus announcement? Alternatively, why not announce the bonus alongside the comp announcement in January but just make the bonus payable in March/April? Last year's special bonuses were announced well in advance of the actual payout date.

I'm guessing they wanted to coast on the EoY bonuses for a while and want to keep interest renewed by spacing announcements. Next large round of people leaving is coming in the Spring, so save the dangling treats until then.

Makes total sense and I understand if that was their intention, but when Milbank announced it seems that DPW should have adjusted that plan. I just don't see any upside for the firm by waiting weeks (months?) to match or even exceed a comp raise. It jeopardizes the goodwill you've built with your associates and for no discernible upside.

What's the downside to waiting? What goodwill is burned if they give more in a month?

People are annoyed now but do people really care after the announcement?

The hope is that all turns out well. I just think waiting is hard. Personally I’m actively working on having patience, generally in life, and this could turn out poorly for some of us but it could also be great, and that is exciting. I think many people are anticipating how happy and relieved they will feel if and when it works out.

[Anonymous User]

Top firms who have remained silent have to go above Milbank. To do otherwise would be absurd at this point given the length of the delay. Otherwise, what was the point of the delay? To just dick us around? A simple match would be a serious slap in the face.

lol a SLAP in the FACE! quell horreur

most biglaw partners would literally slap associates in the face if they could rearrange the world to make it socially acceptable; the fact that the delay in being given a raise irks associates seen by many of them as overentitled is likely a feature as much as a bug

Overentitled? We're overworked and it's not like we just want to money to buy those sneakers with the wheels in them and vbucks.

[Anonymous User]

Top firms who have remained silent have to go above Milbank. To do otherwise would be absurd at this point given the length of the delay. Otherwise, what was the point of the delay? To just dick us around? A simple match would be a serious slap in the face.

lol a SLAP in the FACE! quell horreur

most biglaw partners would literally slap associates in the face if they could rearrange the world to make it socially acceptable; the fact that the delay in being given a raise irks associates seen by many of them as overentitled is likely a feature as much as a bug

Overentitled? We're overworked and it's not like we just want to money to buy those sneakers with the wheels in them and vbucks.

Yeah not arguing that this is what partners actually think (including/especially the young ones who grew up on the stuck-at-160 salary scale), but lol at the idea that it's "entitlement" to think that we should get a 37% share of the hundreds of thousands of $$$ we net for the partnership instead of 35%.

[Anonymous User]

Top firms who have remained silent have to go above Milbank. To do otherwise would be absurd at this point given the length of the delay. Otherwise, what was the point of the delay? To just dick us around? A simple match would be a serious slap in the face.

lol a SLAP in the FACE! quell horreur

most biglaw partners would literally slap associates in the face if they could rearrange the world to make it socially acceptable; the fact that the delay in being given a raise irks associates seen by many of them as overentitled is likely a feature as much as a bug

Overentitled? We're overworked and it's not like we just want to money to buy those sneakers with the wheels in them and vbucks.

Yeah not arguing that this is what partners actually think (including/especially the young ones who grew up on the stuck-at-160 salary scale), but lol at the idea that it's "entitlement" to think that we should get a 37% share of the hundreds of thousands of $$$ we net for the partnership instead of 35%.

Biglaw clients pay firms for the partners, the associates are just nameless cogs in the machine. If one disappears, there are ten others who can easily be hired to take his place. It is pretty outlandish to think that junior employees somehow deserve a piece of the profits of the firm. Should bank tellers get massive pay increases because Bank of America is making more money?

[Anonymous User]

Top firms who have remained silent have to go above Milbank. To do otherwise would be absurd at this point given the length of the delay. Otherwise, what was the point of the delay? To just dick us around? A simple match would be a serious slap in the face.

lol a SLAP in the FACE! quell horreur

most biglaw partners would literally slap associates in the face if they could rearrange the world to make it socially acceptable; the fact that the delay in being given a raise irks associates seen by many of them as overentitled is likely a feature as much as a bug

Overentitled? We're overworked and it's not like we just want to money to buy those sneakers with the wheels in them and vbucks.

Yeah not arguing that this is what partners actually think (including/especially the young ones who grew up on the stuck-at-160 salary scale), but lol at the idea that it's "entitlement" to think that we should get a 37% share of the hundreds of thousands of $$$ we net for the partnership instead of 35%.

Biglaw clients pay firms for the partners, the associates are just nameless cogs in the machine. If one disappears, there are ten others who can easily be hired to take his place. It is pretty outlandish to think that junior employees somehow deserve a piece of the profits of the firm. Should bank tellers get massive pay increases because Bank of America is making more money?

Yup.

[Anonymous User]

Top firms who have remained silent have to go above Milbank. To do otherwise would be absurd at this point given the length of the delay. Otherwise, what was the point of the delay? To just dick us around? A simple match would be a serious slap in the face.

lol a SLAP in the FACE! quell horreur

most biglaw partners would literally slap associates in the face if they could rearrange the world to make it socially acceptable; the fact that the delay in being given a raise irks associates seen by many of them as overentitled is likely a feature as much as a bug

Overentitled? We're overworked and it's not like we just want to money to buy those sneakers with the wheels in them and vbucks.

Yeah not arguing that this is what partners actually think (including/especially the young ones who grew up on the stuck-at-160 salary scale), but lol at the idea that it's "entitlement" to think that we should get a 37% share of the hundreds of thousands of $$$ we net for the partnership instead of 35%.

Biglaw clients pay firms for the partners, the associates are just nameless cogs in the machine. If one disappears, there are ten others who can easily be hired to take his place. It is pretty outlandish to think that junior employees somehow deserve a piece of the profits of the firm. Should bank tellers get massive pay increases because Bank of America is making more money?

Yes.

[2013]

Top firms who have remained silent have to go above Milbank. To do otherwise would be absurd at this point given the length of the delay. Otherwise, what was the point of the delay? To just dick us around? A simple match would be a serious slap in the face.

lol a SLAP in the FACE! quell horreur

most biglaw partners would literally slap associates in the face if they could rearrange the world to make it socially acceptable; the fact that the delay in being given a raise irks associates seen by many of them as overentitled is likely a feature as much as a bug

Overentitled? We're overworked and it's not like we just want to money to buy those sneakers with the wheels in them and vbucks.

Yeah not arguing that this is what partners actually think (including/especially the young ones who grew up on the stuck-at-160 salary scale), but lol at the idea that it's "entitlement" to think that we should get a 37% share of the hundreds of thousands of $$$ we net for the partnership instead of 35%.

Biglaw clients pay firms for the partners, the associates are just nameless cogs in the machine. If one disappears, there are ten others who can easily be hired to take his place. It is pretty outlandish to think that junior employees somehow deserve a piece of the profits of the firm. Should bank tellers get massive pay increases because Bank of America is making more money?

Are bank tellers fee earners? No. They aren’t generating any profits. Banks pay their investment bankers, who are fee earners, huge bonuses based partially on how the bank does.

[nealric]

Top firms who have remained silent have to go above Milbank. To do otherwise would be absurd at this point given the length of the delay. Otherwise, what was the point of the delay? To just dick us around? A simple match would be a serious slap in the face.

lol a SLAP in the FACE! quell horreur

most biglaw partners would literally slap associates in the face if they could rearrange the world to make it socially acceptable; the fact that the delay in being given a raise irks associates seen by many of them as overentitled is likely a feature as much as a bug

Overentitled? We're overworked and it's not like we just want to money to buy those sneakers with the wheels in them and vbucks.

Yeah not arguing that this is what partners actually think (including/especially the young ones who grew up on the stuck-at-160 salary scale), but lol at the idea that it's "entitlement" to think that we should get a 37% share of the hundreds of thousands of $$$ we net for the partnership instead of 35%.

Biglaw clients pay firms for the partners, the associates are just nameless cogs in the machine. If one disappears, there are ten others who can easily be hired to take his place. It is pretty outlandish to think that junior employees somehow deserve a piece of the profits of the firm. Should bank tellers get massive pay increases because Bank of America is making more money?

Speaking as a client, we do actually care about associates (especially senior associates). We know full well that the partner is going to be supervising a lot more than doing actual work, and that the associates are the ones who will be burning the midnight oil on our behalf. As such, we will always ask about associate staffing on pitches and it's a plus if the main senior associate proposed point person is present.

[Anonymous User]

Biglaw clients pay firms for the partners, the associates are just nameless cogs in the machine. If one disappears, there are ten others who can easily be hired to take his place.

This is where you're wrong

[Anonymous User]

Top firms who have remained silent have to go above Milbank. To do otherwise would be absurd at this point given the length of the delay. Otherwise, what was the point of the delay? To just dick us around? A simple match would be a serious slap in the face.

lol a SLAP in the FACE! quell horreur

most biglaw partners would literally slap associates in the face if they could rearrange the world to make it socially acceptable; the fact that the delay in being given a raise irks associates seen by many of them as overentitled is likely a feature as much as a bug

Overentitled? We're overworked and it's not like we just want to money to buy those sneakers with the wheels in them and vbucks.

Yeah not arguing that this is what partners actually think (including/especially the young ones who grew up on the stuck-at-160 salary scale), but lol at the idea that it's "entitlement" to think that we should get a 37% share of the hundreds of thousands of $$$ we net for the partnership instead of 35%.

Biglaw clients pay firms for the partners, the associates are just nameless cogs in the machine. If one disappears, there are ten others who can easily be hired to take his place. It is pretty outlandish to think that junior employees somehow deserve a piece of the profits of the firm. Should bank tellers get massive pay increases because Bank of America is making more money?

Are bank tellers fee earners? No. They aren’t generating any profits. Banks pay their investment bankers, who are fee earners, huge bonuses based partially on how the bank does.

Yeah what a stupid take. We are all little walking dollar signs to the partners that can generate tons of money for them. I’ve had partners at my firm say as much. We are “their most valuable resource” not because of some fuffy feel-good HR bullshit, but because we really are driving lots of revenue for the partners’ benefit.

Whether or not they actually care about us as people, they certainly do care deeply about us as money-making business assets.

[cfcm]

Honestly, a norm of "biglaw raises salaries on the same frequencies as BofA does for its tellers" wouldn't have worked out too badly the past few years.

Today, Bank of America announced it has raised its U.S. minimum hourly wage to $21 as a next step in the company’s plans to increase to $25 by 2025. ...

This builds on the company’s history of being a leader in establishing a minimum rate of pay for its U.S. hourly employees. In the last four years, Bank of America raised the minimum hourly wage to $15 in 2017; in 2019 it rose to $17 and in 2020, to $20 — one year ahead of schedule.

https://newsroom.bankofamerica.com/cont ... 20schedule

[Anonymous User]

I haven't done the Vault survey yet, but would like to so that I can give all of the v10 1s. Can someone send me the link?

[Anonymous User]

Top firms who have remained silent have to go above Milbank. To do otherwise would be absurd at this point given the length of the delay. Otherwise, what was the point of the delay? To just dick us around? A simple match would be a serious slap in the face.

lol a SLAP in the FACE! quell horreur

most biglaw partners would literally slap associates in the face if they could rearrange the world to make it socially acceptable; the fact that the delay in being given a raise irks associates seen by many of them as overentitled is likely a feature as much as a bug

Overentitled? We're overworked and it's not like we just want to money to buy those sneakers with the wheels in them and vbucks.

Yeah not arguing that this is what partners actually think (including/especially the young ones who grew up on the stuck-at-160 salary scale), but lol at the idea that it's "entitlement" to think that we should get a 37% share of the hundreds of thousands of $$$ we net for the partnership instead of 35%.

Biglaw clients pay firms for the partners, the associates are just nameless cogs in the machine. If one disappears, there are ten others who can easily be hired to take his place. It is pretty outlandish to think that junior employees somehow deserve a piece of the profits of the firm. Should bank tellers get massive pay increases because Bank of America is making more money?

Are bank tellers fee earners? No. They aren’t generating any profits. Banks pay their investment bankers, who are fee earners, huge bonuses based partially on how the bank does.

Precisely. The bank teller argument is pretty dumb. Maybe a better example is a car salesperson, who gets paid like crap, but without whom the dealership owner (who takes home literally all the profits) would not make money.

Or even the fact that a Skadden corporate associate in NY makes the same salary working for the partner who's taking home $3,000,000/year as the Covington regulatory associate in DC who's working for the partner who's taking home $800,000/year. That might be the best proof that it's all about the completely fixed "market" (for talent/labor) and what they can get away with paying us rather than the value we add.

[Anonymous User]

Ok guys. Focus. Back to making predictions based on arbitrary criteria on when DPW will finally say something. My vote is 4:35 PM tomorrow.

There's gotta be someone familiar enough with the legal market to game out how this could trickle up from Cooley to DPW. As in, Cooley is a peer of A in X market, so A will need to match. Then A is a peer of B in Y market, so B will match. Then B is a peer of [insert V5], so that V5 will need to match, which will finally put gears in motion for the rest of us.

Kirkland is always one of your best bets, because they refuse to let anyone pay more except boutiques/Wachtell, are hyper-aggressive in recruiting, and have offices in 10 domestic markets. Also, all Kirkland offices are paid the same so pressure to match in one market would mean matches everywhere, which in turn would swing basically the whole legal market.

Goodwin, WilmerHale, and Choate are competitors to Kirkland in Boston, and kinda Cooley too. Norton Rose isn’t really a peer to them in Texas, but they’re respectable and are peers with enough other Texas firms that would need to match, which would make Kirkland match. Cooley is a Kirkland competitor in SF and LA. WilmerHale is a competitor in DC.

There’s probably another connections but that’s off the top of my head. I don’t see any scenario where Kirkland doesn’t match, which means there’s no scenario with the rest of the V10 doesn’t match.

[Anonymous User]

Biglaw clients pay firms for the partners, the associates are just nameless cogs in the machine. If one disappears, there are ten others who can easily be hired to take his place.

That may be true for first years, but for everyone else, the fact that Kirkland is paying six figure signing bonuses for associates disproves this point...the market for mid-level/senior transactional associates is very tight right now.

Also the senior associates definitely matter to a lot of clients on a lot of matters.

[Anonymous User]

Top firms who have remained silent have to go above Milbank. To do otherwise would be absurd at this point given the length of the delay. Otherwise, what was the point of the delay? To just dick us around? A simple match would be a serious slap in the face.

lol a SLAP in the FACE! quell horreur

most biglaw partners would literally slap associates in the face if they could rearrange the world to make it socially acceptable; the fact that the delay in being given a raise irks associates seen by many of them as overentitled is likely a feature as much as a bug

Overentitled? We're overworked and it's not like we just want to money to buy those sneakers with the wheels in them and vbucks.

Yeah not arguing that this is what partners actually think (including/especially the young ones who grew up on the stuck-at-160 salary scale), but lol at the idea that it's "entitlement" to think that we should get a 37% share of the hundreds of thousands of $$$ we net for the partnership instead of 35%.

Biglaw clients pay firms for the partners, the associates are just nameless cogs in the machine. If one disappears, there are ten others who can easily be hired to take his place. It is pretty outlandish to think that junior employees somehow deserve a piece of the profits of the firm. Should bank tellers get massive pay increases because Bank of America is making more money?

I like to think what biglaw attorneys do is at least marginally more demanding and complicated than giving grandma cash for her rolls of nickels

[Anonymous User]

Top firms who have remained silent have to go above Milbank. To do otherwise would be absurd at this point given the length of the delay. Otherwise, what was the point of the delay? To just dick us around? A simple match would be a serious slap in the face.

lol a SLAP in the FACE! quell horreur

most biglaw partners would literally slap associates in the face if they could rearrange the world to make it socially acceptable; the fact that the delay in being given a raise irks associates seen by many of them as overentitled is likely a feature as much as a bug

Overentitled? We're overworked and it's not like we just want to money to buy those sneakers with the wheels in them and vbucks.

Yeah not arguing that this is what partners actually think (including/especially the young ones who grew up on the stuck-at-160 salary scale), but lol at the idea that it's "entitlement" to think that we should get a 37% share of the hundreds of thousands of $$$ we net for the partnership instead of 35%.

Biglaw clients pay firms for the partners, the associates are just nameless cogs in the machine. If one disappears, there are ten others who can easily be hired to take his place. It is pretty outlandish to think that junior employees somehow deserve a piece of the profits of the firm. Should bank tellers get massive pay increases because Bank of America is making more money?

I like to think what biglaw attorneys do is at least marginally more demanding and complicated than giving grandma cash for her rolls of nickels

I disagree. I mean it is more complicated, but a 50th percentile tryhard from a t75 law school is going to be worth as much and maybe even more than a 75th percentile from a t20. Law requires a baseline of intelligence, and anything past that is worth less than someone who just grinds and bills hours. That baseline is not very high. That's why nepotism works so well in the industry. Because being smart doesn't really matter that much. A dumb grinder is worth more than a lazy genius because there's not enough unsolvable problems and high level work that the lazy genius can come in and be like "this is why you hired me."

The real problem is that we all picked a profession where intelligence is like the 5th most important thing behind charisma, work ethic, having no life, etc.

[Anonymous User]

Top firms who have remained silent have to go above Milbank. To do otherwise would be absurd at this point given the length of the delay. Otherwise, what was the point of the delay? To just dick us around? A simple match would be a serious slap in the face.

lol a SLAP in the FACE! quell horreur

most biglaw partners would literally slap associates in the face if they could rearrange the world to make it socially acceptable; the fact that the delay in being given a raise irks associates seen by many of them as overentitled is likely a feature as much as a bug

Overentitled? We're overworked and it's not like we just want to money to buy those sneakers with the wheels in them and vbucks.

Yeah not arguing that this is what partners actually think (including/especially the young ones who grew up on the stuck-at-160 salary scale), but lol at the idea that it's "entitlement" to think that we should get a 37% share of the hundreds of thousands of $$$ we net for the partnership instead of 35%.

Response 1 appears to have missed the bolded, response 2 to have deliberately ignored it. It's undeniable many partners see associates this way. Nothing in the OP is supporting that position, so you're either making a use-mention error or you just get easily riled up and can't help yourself from reacting even when you know your reaction is not responsive to the point being made.

[Anonymous User]

Ok guys. Focus. Back to making predictions based on arbitrary criteria on when DPW will finally say something. My vote is 4:35 PM tomorrow.

There's gotta be someone familiar enough with the legal market to game out how this could trickle up from Cooley to DPW. As in, Cooley is a peer of A in X market, so A will need to match. Then A is a peer of B in Y market, so B will match. Then B is a peer of [insert V5], so that V5 will need to match, which will finally put gears in motion for the rest of us.

Kirkland is always one of your best bets, because they refuse to let anyone pay more except boutiques/Wachtell, are hyper-aggressive in recruiting, and have offices in 10 domestic markets. Also, all Kirkland offices are paid the same so pressure to match in one market would mean matches everywhere, which in turn would swing basically the whole legal market.

Goodwin, WilmerHale, and Choate are competitors to Kirkland in Boston, and kinda Cooley too. Norton Rose isn’t really a peer to them in Texas, but they’re respectable and are peers with enough other Texas firms that would need to match, which would make Kirkland match. Cooley is a Kirkland competitor in SF and LA. WilmerHale is a competitor in DC.

There’s probably another connections but that’s off the top of my head. I don’t see any scenario where Kirkland doesn’t match, which means there’s no scenario with the rest of the V10 doesn’t match.

tyvm for the SCHOLARSHIP this actually seems pretty plausible and i find it reassuring

cmonnnn Kirkland

[Anonymous User]

Top firms who have remained silent have to go above Milbank. To do otherwise would be absurd at this point given the length of the delay. Otherwise, what was the point of the delay? To just dick us around? A simple match would be a serious slap in the face.

lol a SLAP in the FACE! quell horreur

most biglaw partners would literally slap associates in the face if they could rearrange the world to make it socially acceptable; the fact that the delay in being given a raise irks associates seen by many of them as overentitled is likely a feature as much as a bug

Overentitled? We're overworked and it's not like we just want to money to buy those sneakers with the wheels in them and vbucks.

Yeah not arguing that this is what partners actually think (including/especially the young ones who grew up on the stuck-at-160 salary scale), but lol at the idea that it's "entitlement" to think that we should get a 37% share of the hundreds of thousands of $$$ we net for the partnership instead of 35%.

Biglaw clients pay firms for the partners, the associates are just nameless cogs in the machine. If one disappears, there are ten others who can easily be hired to take his place. It is pretty outlandish to think that junior employees somehow deserve a piece of the profits of the firm. Should bank tellers get massive pay increases because Bank of America is making more money?

I like to think what biglaw attorneys do is at least marginally more demanding and complicated than giving grandma cash for her rolls of nickels

I disagree. I mean it is more complicated, but a 50th percentile tryhard from a t75 law school is going to be worth as much and maybe even more than a 75th percentile from a t20. Law requires a baseline of intelligence, and anything past that is worth less than someone who just grinds and bills hours. That baseline is not very high. That's why nepotism works so well in the industry. Because being smart doesn't really matter that much. A dumb grinder is worth more than a lazy genius because there's not enough unsolvable problems and high level work that the lazy genius can come in and be like "this is why you hired me."

The real problem is that we all picked a profession where intelligence is like the 5th most important thing behind charisma, work ethic, having no life, etc.

Guess that's why median students at TTTs do so well. Oh wait.

[Anonymous User]

Top firms who have remained silent have to go above Milbank. To do otherwise would be absurd at this point given the length of the delay. Otherwise, what was the point of the delay? To just dick us around? A simple match would be a serious slap in the face.

lol a SLAP in the FACE! quell horreur

most biglaw partners would literally slap associates in the face if they could rearrange the world to make it socially acceptable; the fact that the delay in being given a raise irks associates seen by many of them as overentitled is likely a feature as much as a bug

the sesationalistic portrayal of partners on TLS is ridiculous and dumb. I don't disagree that many of them probably don't feel strongly in favor of associates receiving a raise. Even agree that they would perceive these comments as entitled. Yet the suggestion that social convention is the only thing keeping them from slapping associates is stupid.

[Anonymous User]

Seriously the idea that any idiot can do this work is laughable. Maybe basic diligence but I've even had issues with juniors not really being able to get how to do that...

[Anonymous User]

Top firms who have remained silent have to go above Milbank. To do otherwise would be absurd at this point given the length of the delay. Otherwise, what was the point of the delay? To just dick us around? A simple match would be a serious slap in the face.

lol a SLAP in the FACE! quell horreur

most biglaw partners would literally slap associates in the face if they could rearrange the world to make it socially acceptable; the fact that the delay in being given a raise irks associates seen by many of them as overentitled is likely a feature as much as a bug

Millions of Americans would bring back slavery if it were socially acceptable. But it's not, so they can go pound sand. some boomer partner may believe juniors should have come into their NYC office everyday while making $50K ... but so what? The labor market is elsewhere, and all the support staff is making more than that now.

[Anonymous User]

Seriously the idea that any idiot can do this work is laughable. Maybe basic diligence but I've even had issues with juniors not really being able to get how to do that...

Idk exactly how to define the skills needed, but yeah not everyone can do it and a lot of people fail.

[Anonymous User]

I see all these stories in other threads about how close some of y'all claim to be with the partners at your V10s. SPs even.

So where the hell y'all at? Ask them about where our money is.