Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad? Forum

[flcath]

You can pay rent + utilities + food + transportation + taxes for $2K/month? (Anywhere, let alone NY?)

I'm unsure of whether this was sarcastic or not, but the budget went something like this:

Rent + Utilities: $450 (it was a hostel)
Food: $300/mo
Transportation: $80/mo (subway pass)
$130 left to spare for all other things

I wasn't counting taxes- $1k was the budget. But taxes are pretty darn low when you make $25k/yr.

What are these $70K jobs? I seriously do not know.

Mostly federal government.

1. Yep, dead serious, and that's actually pretty encouraging. I don't live that inexpensively now, as a UG. (I also make more than that now, as a UG.) Hearing this makes me think I can make it through debt repayment... I should probably still marry for money, though, just in case.
2. Oh yeah, I forgot about locality pay.

[rondemarino]

In other professions, this is what's called "wagging the dog." You can demand whatever salary you want, but you're not going to get it. It has more to do with the market value for your services rather than what your demands are. I think the service I give my company right now warrants a salary increase of 100%. Guess what? I'm not going to get it, because there's other people that would do my job for what I make now (although not as well, of course ). Only in law is there this notion that people are entitled to print cash before even accomplishing anything real, and it's because the maket is artificially skewed in that corporate clients seem to be willing to truck in cash simply for people with a degree from certain schools, regardless of what they have accomplished. From the rest of the world's perspective, you went to a 3 year professional school after majoring in the humanities, and now you expect a salary four times that of graduates of other graduate programs of similar length? Law school is a lot of tedious work, but it's also not rocket science. $60k after three years of grad school should be considered great, and is considered great by most of the rest of the world.

- You should watch the MLB baseball draft.
- By your logic, we should all be happy for making what the average person after three years of graduate study makes or the average person in the "rest of the world" makes? This is hilarious.

[irishman86]

You can pay rent + utilities + food + transportation + taxes for $2K/month? (Anywhere, let alone NY?)

I'm unsure of whether this was sarcastic or not, but the budget went something like this:

Rent + Utilities: $450 (it was a hostel)
Food: $300/mo
Transportation: $80/mo (subway pass)
$130 left to spare for all other things

I wasn't counting taxes- $1k was the budget. But taxes are pretty darn low when you make $25k/yr.

What are these $70K jobs? I seriously do not know.

Mostly federal government.

Most people don't count living in a hostel "living."

Also, people should stop throwing around "LRAP" so much, as if it is an easy solution. If there are no jobs available, you aren't going to get LRAP. Last I heard it's hard to get a qualifying PI job for LRAP.

[irishman86]

There is no way in hell I could live off of $25K in a primary market like NYC.

It can most certainly be done- you just would not like the standard of living. I lived on less than $1k/mo in NYC when I was a SA (probably would have come to about $1k/mo if I had been paying for all my meals). It meant living in a hostel. For 2 months it was OK, but I would have been rather unhappy if it was my permanent life.

I'm not trying to harp on a point that I know you probably made off-hand, but I really had no idea this could be done. You can pay rent + utilities + food + transportation + [strike]taxes[/strike] for $2K/month? (Anywhere, let alone NY?) On the plus side, even the crappiest LRAPs will cover you when you're pulling down that kind of flow (or lack thereof).

You can make $25K/yr. without a HS diploma. Also, I'm told the average debt load for a GED is far less than that of a JD.

If you only make 25k a year, you might as well exit the legal field and work at a fast food restaurant and try to become manager of the restaurant, because managers get paid over twice that. 25k a year wouldn't let you live NORMALLY (not in a hostel made for drug users and homeless people) in any remotely urban area and probably not in most suburbs anywhere in America either.

[kurama20]

If you only make 25k a year, you might as well exit the legal field and work at a fast food restaurant and try to become manager of the restaurant, because managers get paid over twice that. 25k a year wouldn't let you live NORMALLY (not in a hostel made for drug users and homeless people) in any remotely urban area and probably not in most suburbs anywhere in America either.

This is one of the many reasons people need to get this "OMG I have to live in NYC or Cali or my life isn't worth living" garbage out of their heads.

[rondemarino]

I agree with cougar. The L schools are taking people for a ride. What does a lawyer right of school do that could possibly be worth 160k? You know nothing when you leave school and have minimal responsibility. The day of the wealthy parasitic lawyer may be declining.

If money is so important, try doing something useful.

While you're at it, let law schools know they should charge us lower tuition so we don't need that 160k to pay off our loans.

+1. Harvard had to shut down its program to pay 3L tuition for students committed to 5 years of public interest work because they had 50% more people apply than expected. I'm waiting for the lifestyle track - $90-110k for 1600 billable hours!

[nealric]

Most people don't count living in a hostel "living."

Beats dying

[MC Southstar]

If you only make 25k a year, you might as well exit the legal field and work at a fast food restaurant and try to become manager of the restaurant, because managers get paid over twice that. 25k a year wouldn't let you live NORMALLY (not in a hostel made for drug users and homeless people) in any remotely urban area and probably not in most suburbs anywhere in America either.

This is one of the many reasons people need to get this "OMG I have to live in NYC or Cali or my life isn't worth living" garbage out of their heads.

Some people would rather be a beggar artist in NYC than a corporate slave in the middle of bumfucknowhere. Not that I'm one of them, much better to be a bum in Cali where it's warm.

[kurama20]

If you only make 25k a year, you might as well exit the legal field and work at a fast food restaurant and try to become manager of the restaurant, because managers get paid over twice that. 25k a year wouldn't let you live NORMALLY (not in a hostel made for drug users and homeless people) in any remotely urban area and probably not in most suburbs anywhere in America either.

This is one of the many reasons people need to get this "OMG I have to live in NYC or Cali or my life isn't worth living" garbage out of their heads.

Some people would rather be a beggar artist in NYC than a corporate slave in the middle of bumfucknowhere. Not that I'm one of them, much better to be a bum in Cali where it's warm.

The strawman's going on in this thread are unreal. First of all it's enormously ignorant to think that anywhere outside of NYC and Cali is "bumblefuck" ---but that's the sort of immaturity that runs rampant on TLS (particuarly since half the site seems to be from Orange County or the Jersey Shore). Second the fact that people think that the only job options are A. Corporate Slave and B. Starving artist is also ignorant--what's ironic is that in locales outside of NYC and Cali there are actually more legal options in between being a corporate slave and being a starving artist simply because other locales don't attract people with that type of mindset nearly as much as NYC does. It's also amazing how people make these sweeping generalizations about regions like the south and other secondary markets considering they have never been further south than DC.

[rondemarino]

If you only make 25k a year, you might as well exit the legal field and work at a fast food restaurant and try to become manager of the restaurant, because managers get paid over twice that. 25k a year wouldn't let you live NORMALLY (not in a hostel made for drug users and homeless people) in any remotely urban area and probably not in most suburbs anywhere in America either.

This is one of the many reasons people need to get this "OMG I have to live in NYC or Cali or my life isn't worth living" garbage out of their heads.

Some people would rather be a beggar artist in NYC than a corporate slave in the middle of bumfucknowhere. Not that I'm one of them, much better to be a bum in Cali where it's warm.

The strawman's going on in this thread are unreal. First of all it's enormously ignorant to think that anywhere outside of NYC and Cali is "bumblefuck" ---but that's the sort of immaturity that runs rampant on TLS (particuarly since half the site seems to be from Orange County or the Jersey Shore). Second the fact that people think that the only job options are A. Corporate Slave and B. Starving artist is also ignorant--what's ironic is that in locales outside of NYC and Cali there are actually more legal options in between being a corporate slave and being a starving artist simply because other locales don't attract people with that type of mindset nearly as much as NYC does. It's also amazing how people make these sweeping generalizations about regions like the south and other secondary markets considering they have never been further south than DC.

I'm afraid of living anywhere that voted for Bush twice. Unfortunately, that rules out Colorado and North Carolina, both states I love. Should probably revisit my rule

[MC Southstar]

If you only make 25k a year, you might as well exit the legal field and work at a fast food restaurant and try to become manager of the restaurant, because managers get paid over twice that. 25k a year wouldn't let you live NORMALLY (not in a hostel made for drug users and homeless people) in any remotely urban area and probably not in most suburbs anywhere in America either.

This is one of the many reasons people need to get this "OMG I have to live in NYC or Cali or my life isn't worth living" garbage out of their heads.

Some people would rather be a beggar artist in NYC than a corporate slave in the middle of bumfucknowhere. Not that I'm one of them, much better to be a bum in Cali where it's warm.

The strawman's going on in this thread are unreal. First of all it's enormously ignorant to think that anywhere outside of NYC and Cali is "bumblefuck" ---but that's the sort of immaturity that runs rampant on TLS (particuarly since half the site seems to be from Orange County or the Jersey Shore). Second the fact that people think that the only job options are A. Corporate Slave and B. Starving artist is also ignorant--what's ironic is that in locales outside of NYC and Cali there are actually more legal options in between being a corporate slave and being a starving artist simply because other locales don't attract people with that type of mindset nearly as much as NYC does. It's also amazing how people make these sweeping generalizations about regions like the south and other secondary markets considering they have never been further south than DC.

OR you're taking me too seriously. However, NYC has a tolerance and diversity that I think is unrivaled in this country, and Cali is just the staging ground of my peoples. I don't know what the rest of these people are talking about.

EDIT: Yeah, also when I see red state, I see rednecks.

[flcath]

If you only make 25k a year, you might as well exit the legal field and work at a fast food restaurant and try to become manager of the restaurant, because managers get paid over twice that. 25k a year wouldn't let you live NORMALLY (not in a hostel made for drug users and homeless people) in any remotely urban area and probably not in most suburbs anywhere in America either.

This is one of the many reasons people need to get this "OMG I have to live in NYC or Cali or my life isn't worth living" garbage out of their heads.

Some people would rather be a beggar artist in NYC than a corporate slave in the middle of bumfucknowhere. Not that I'm one of them, much better to be a bum in Cali where it's warm.

The strawman's going on in this thread are unreal. First of all it's enormously ignorant to think that anywhere outside of NYC and Cali is "bumblefuck" ---but that's the sort of immaturity that runs rampant on TLS (particuarly since half the site seems to be from Orange County or the Jersey Shore). Second the fact that people think that the only job options are A. Corporate Slave and B. Starving artist is also ignorant--what's ironic is that in locales outside of NYC and Cali there are actually more legal options in between being a corporate slave and being a starving artist simply because other locales don't attract people with that type of mindset nearly as much as NYC does. It's also amazing how people make these sweeping generalizations about regions like the south and other secondary markets considering they have never been further south than DC.

I grew up in the South (capitalized, which means it doesn't include Florida... maybe "the Confederacy" would be more accurate) and have spent a lot of time around NYC-ers, Cali-ers, DC-ers, et cetera. It's not just TLS; a good portion of America views us as fly-over country.

Edit: To be fair, I can see why some East/West coasters view living in Middle America with such disdain... I mean, we support Sarah Palin for God's sake.

[rondemarino]

I grew up in the South (capitalized, which means it doesn't include Florida... maybe "the Confederacy" would be more accurate) and have spent a lot of time around NYC-ers, Cali-er, DC-ers, et cetera. It's not just TLS; a good portion of America views us as fly-over country.

Don't forget the midwest, plain states, interior west and lets throw New Mexico in there, just to be sure.

[kurama20]

OR you're taking me too seriously. However, NYC has a tolerance and diversity that I think is unrivaled in this country, and Cali is just the staging ground of my peoples. I don't know what the rest of these people are talking about.

NYC is very tolerant if you have a certain type of viewpoint--it's not very tolerant at all if you are 1. A religious person (especially Christian) 2. Not hyper liberal and 3. Don't think NYC and Cali (and maybe DC) are the only places worth living.

[dresden doll]

In other professions, this is what's called "wagging the dog." You can demand whatever salary you want, but you're not going to get it. It has more to do with the market value for your services rather than what your demands are. I think the service I give my company right now warrants a salary increase of 100%. Guess what? I'm not going to get it, because there's other people that would do my job for what I make now (although not as well, of course ). Only in law is there this notion that people are entitled to print cash before even accomplishing anything real, and it's because the maket is artificially skewed in that corporate clients seem to be willing to truck in cash simply for people with a degree from certain schools, regardless of what they have accomplished. From the rest of the world's perspective, you went to a 3 year professional school after majoring in the humanities, and now you expect a salary four times that of graduates of other graduate programs of similar length? Law school is a lot of tedious work, but it's also not rocket science. $60k after three years of grad school should be considered great, and is considered great by most of the rest of the world.

- You should watch the MLB baseball draft.
- By your logic, we should all be happy for making what the average person after three years of graduate study makes or the average person in the "rest of the world" makes? This is hilarious.

FTW. Seven years of higher education and thousands of dollars in debt bloody well justify desire for a decent paycheck.

[dresden doll]

Having lived in the freaking Midwest for the past seven years, I am more than willing to say that I'll be moving to either NYC or Cali at the first available opportunity.

[MC Southstar]

OR you're taking me too seriously. However, NYC has a tolerance and diversity that I think is unrivaled in this country, and Cali is just the staging ground of my peoples. I don't know what the rest of these people are talking about.

NYC is very tolerant if you have a certain type of viewpoint--it's not very tolerant at all if you are 1. A religious person (especially Christian) 2. Not hyper liberal and 3. Don't think NYC and Cali (and maybe DC) are the only places worth living.

What you forgot to mention is that huge portions of this country are even more intolerant of the opposite of the things you listed. Don't hate on us for clinging to our strongholds.

[rondemarino]

OR you're taking me too seriously. However, NYC has a tolerance and diversity that I think is unrivaled in this country, and Cali is just the staging ground of my peoples. I don't know what the rest of these people are talking about.

NYC is very tolerant if you have a certain type of viewpoint--it's not very tolerant at all if you are 1. A religious person (especially Christian) 2. Not hyper liberal and 3. Don't think NYC and Cali (and maybe DC) are the only places worth living.

What you forgot to mention is that huge portions of this country are even more intolerant of the opposite of the things you listed.

ROFL.

You'll find out why that's funny when kurama responds. But I think his limited point was that NYC isn't as tolerant as you think, not that its less tolerant than other places.

[irishman86]

If you only make 25k a year, you might as well exit the legal field and work at a fast food restaurant and try to become manager of the restaurant, because managers get paid over twice that. 25k a year wouldn't let you live NORMALLY (not in a hostel made for drug users and homeless people) in any remotely urban area and probably not in most suburbs anywhere in America either.

This is one of the many reasons people need to get this "OMG I have to live in NYC or Cali or my life isn't worth living" garbage out of their heads.

I am a Californian and I have trouble understanding the hype. States like Oregon (Portland in particular) are better places to live. I admit I want to try living in NYC for the "feeling," but I can't see myself living there for a long period of time. Continuing on the line of delusional, or maybe not, Western Europe is better than any place in America I have been/spent long periods of time in. I spent about 8 months abroad and most of America is very "blah" in comparison, so when comparing California and NYC to Western Europe, for example, I really think they are overrated.

[irishman86]

Most people don't count living in a hostel "living."

Beats dying

quick, painless death > living in shame in a hostel with drug addicts. I am really not sure life is worth living if you are making 25k with a JD in NYC.

[ToTransferOrNot]

There is no way in hell I could live off of $25K in a primary market like NYC.

It can most certainly be done- you just would not like the standard of living. I lived on less than $1k/mo in NYC when I was a SA (probably would have come to about $1k/mo if I had been paying for all my meals). It meant living in a hostel. For 2 months it was OK, but I would have been rather unhappy if it was my permanent life.

I'm not trying to harp on a point that I know you probably made off-hand, but I really had no idea this could be done. You can pay rent + utilities + food + transportation + [strike]taxes[/strike] for $2K/month? (Anywhere, let alone NY?) On the plus side, even the crappiest LRAPs will cover you when you're pulling down that kind of flow (or lack thereof).

You can make $25K/yr. without a HS diploma. Also, I'm told the average debt load for a GED is far less than that of a JD.

If you only make 25k a year, you might as well exit the legal field and work at a fast food restaurant and try to become manager of the restaurant, because managers get paid over twice that. 25k a year wouldn't let you live NORMALLY (not in a hostel made for drug users and homeless people) in any remotely urban area and probably not in most suburbs anywhere in America either.

Dear lord, give me an fing break!

Would I be happy making $25k after 3 years of law school? Obviously not. Would I be able to survive? Obviously yes, considering that my family had a total combined income of less than $30k a year with 3 mouths to feed, before I was old enough to start working. NYC and LA aren't the only places in the world to live--and people there manage to live on $25k a year (my uncle makes a little over $20k a year, lives in LA.) Is it a comfortable life? Not particularly, but give me a freaking break with this "OMG I COULDN'T POSSIBLY DO IT AND YOU CAN'T LIVE NORMALLY ON.")

As I've said many times, the skewed perspective of the typical law school demographic never ceases to amaze me. Edit: Not to specifically call you out, flcath (my post is more directed at irish,) but it speaks very loudly of the law school demographic that you "didn't know [living on $2k a month] could be done," considering the fact that a huge, huge number of people in the US live on a hell of a lot less than that.

As an aside: newsflash, have you ever actually managed any kind of restaurant, fast food or otherwise (For that matter, have you waited tables or worked food service in general?) It is an incredibly difficult job physically. The fact that it doesn't require much intellectual engagement is a huge negative, as far as I'm concerned. I laugh the same way when people compare lawyer salaries to plumbers and garbage truck drivers. You may metaphorically have to deal with peoples' shit and garbage as a lawyer, but there's a pretty big difference between metaphorical and literal reality.

[kurama20]

OR you're taking me too seriously. However, NYC has a tolerance and diversity that I think is unrivaled in this country, and Cali is just the staging ground of my peoples. I don't know what the rest of these people are talking about.

NYC is very tolerant if you have a certain type of viewpoint--it's not very tolerant at all if you are 1. A religious person (especially Christian) 2. Not hyper liberal and 3. Don't think NYC and Cali (and maybe DC) are the only places worth living.

What you forgot to mention is that huge portions of this country are even more intolerant of the opposite of the things you listed.

ROFL.

You'll find out why that's funny when kurama responds. But I think his limited point was that NYC isn't as tolerant as you think, not that its less tolerant than other places.

Although it pains me to admit it, yes that was the point. For some reason a lot of people have a one sided view of tolerance,it doesn't exclusively encompass being tolerant of liberal views.

In response to the initial bolded statement: from my experience the South and Midwest are actually a lot more tolerant--in a sense--than places like NYC are. These areas kind of have the view of "You can believe and do whatever you want--just be polite and don't expect us to agree with it." Whereas areas like NYC often have the view of "If you don't believe what I believe you are ignorant and from Bumblefuck" as it is so often eloquently expressed. This mindset can often be seen on this website as well.

[06072010]

TLS is tolerant as hell. It's not my fault you're from East bumblefuck, kurama.

[kurama20]

TLS is tolerant as hell. It's not my fault you're from East bumblefuck, kurama.

East bumblefuck--- everywhere south of DC and in between Cali and NYC.

[06072010]

And Jersey. How could you forget Jersey?