Biglaw lawyer taking questions Forum

[ruleser]

Along the same lines, would it be better to attend a school that offers, say like W and L now is, a 3rd year program that will be experiential/practical possibly over some higher ranked ones with far less of that?

Well, maybe among peer schools, but I wouldn't put too much weight on the program. That said, if you really want to get a leg up, clinics are the way to go.

Thanks, that's very helpful.

[3rdYrLitigator]

Did you law review? If so, was it worth it?

I did a secondary journal, absolutely worth it.

[erico]

you briefly touched on patent attorneys at your firm. do you have any idea if the noraml hiring standards, i.e. only top 20 schools etc, apply to hard IP guys (electrical engineering background for example)? or are hard ip attorneys more rare and thus given some slack? ha.

thanks for all the infor in this thread, very informative.

[Renzo]

On a scale of zero to 10, how delusional would you have to be to think you're going to get a 1L summer assoc. job ITE?

[3rdYrLitigator]

you briefly touched on patent attorneys at your firm. do you have any idea if the noraml hiring standards, i.e. only top 20 schools etc, apply to hard IP guys (electrical engineering background for example)? or are hard ip attorneys more rare and thus given some slack? ha.

thanks for all the infor in this thread, very informative.

I've interviewed some of the patent attorneys that came through recruiting this year, they were all top 20. As far as I know, things used to be a little more slack, but this year it's top schools only.

On a scale of zero to 10, how delusional would you have to be to think you're going to get a 1L summer assoc. job ITE?

Can never hurt to apply, but if you don't have serious connections, I'd say you'd have to be right around a 9.5.

[BaiAilian2013]

How often do the long hours come in the form of having to work extremely late into the night (e.g. ending up with 4 or 5 hours of sleep) rather than just late evenings and weekends? In your experience, is significant sleep deprivation common?

[erico]

How often do the long hours come in the form of having to work extremely late into the night (e.g. ending up with 4 or 5 hours of sleep) rather than just late evenings and weekends? In your experience, is significant sleep deprivation common?

hahaha

[Anonymous User]

Are there any black partners in your firm?

How are black associates viewed in general by the firm?

Is it all down to hard work for everyone?

Please be honest and give us an overview of your observations.

[TheJudge]

Are there any black partners in your firm?

How are black associates viewed in general by the firm?

Is it all down to hard work for everyone?

Please be honest and give us an overview of your observations.

From what I can tell, AA get treated way differently. They are also allowed way more leeway when it comes to hours for instance. You know, my firm really likes to pay 160K a year for people that underperform.

[20121109]

Are there any black partners in your firm?

How are black associates viewed in general by the firm?

Is it all down to hard work for everyone?

Please be honest and give us an overview of your observations.

From what I can tell, AA get treated way differently. They are also allowed way more leeway when it comes to hours for instance. You know, my firm really likes to pay 160K a year for people that underperform.

What is wrong with you? You really are quite sad. This man is here to offer real insight into life as a Biglaw lawyer and then you attempt to start some frivolous affirmative action debate based on your prejudice. Stop derailing this thread.

[06072010]

Are there any black partners in your firm?

How are black associates viewed in general by the firm?

Is it all down to hard work for everyone?

Please be honest and give us an overview of your observations.

From what I can tell, AA get treated way differently. They are also allowed way more leeway when it comes to hours for instance. You know, my firm really likes to pay 160K a year for people that underperform.

And he's abusing the anonymous feature badly and thus gets outted. TheJudge, you are warned and are on thin ice.

[3rdYrLitigator]

How often do the long hours come in the form of having to work extremely late into the night (e.g. ending up with 4 or 5 hours of sleep) rather than just late evenings and weekends? In your experience, is significant sleep deprivation common?

Well the latest I've ever stayed at work is 1:30 AM. However, in the past 3 months, I've probably been at work for 12 or more hours more often than not. I think everyone works on a fair amount of sleep debt.

Are there any black partners in your firm?

How are black associates viewed in general by the firm?

Is it all down to hard work for everyone?

Please be honest and give us an overview of your observations.

Of course there are black partners, and as far as black associates, I haven't seen any difference in how they're treated. They get the same amount of work as other associates and as far as I know have to work as well and as hard as everyone else. Here's the thing about Biglaw, from what I've seen, people don't care about your personal/racial/political affiliations, they don't really care about your home life (married, kids, etc.), what they care about is getting their work done. A partner isn't going to accept anything but high quality work, and anyone that doesn't deliver is gone. That's how associates are treated, as far as partners, once you get to that level, it's develop business or you're gone. I just think all other considerations are secondary to the bottom line.

[Dan Flavin]

Could you rank the following in terms of their importance in securing a permanent offer:
1) Work Product
2) Hours put in
3) 2L Grades
4) Attending social events
5) Being well liked
6) Working in an active practice group (i.e., lit as opposed to corp)
7) Working in a single practice group rather than moving around

[nealric]

1) Work Product
2) Hours put in
3) 2L Grades
4) Attending social events
5) Being well liked
6) Working in an active practice group (i.e., lit as opposed to corp)
7) Working in a single practice group rather than moving around

I have a family member who is a hiring partner. I've been told the following:

1. Work product. Great work product can trump most things. In the end, it's your work product that they are selling. Said hiring partner has given offers to people who were generally disliked and even made somewhat of an arse of themselves during firm events because their work product was excellent.
2. Being generally liked/desired. This collapses several of your points. If a practice group head tells the hiring partner "I want X", then X is going to get an offer barring some other extraordinary circumstances. There are of course, a variety of reasons why a partner would think that of a SA. It tends to be a mix of work product and personality. It also may depend on pre-law school experience that jives with the practice group.

Other factors fall into the "can only hurt you" category.

1. 2L grades won't matter unless they fall to the point of being worrisome. If you had a 3.7 1L year and a 2.7 2L year, that could cause problems. Falling from a 3.7 to a 3.6 is no big deal. By contrast, going from a 3.5 to a 3.7 probably won't really help you.

2. Practice group can cause a no-offer if you make them think that you are dead set on a practice group where they won't be needing anybody. Telling them, "All I've ever wanted to do is securitization work" could be problematic.

3. Don't anger anyone. Sounds easy enough, but you would be surprised. Make sure you know what expectations are RE: deadlines. If you tell someone you are going to do something, do it. Generally, don't be flaky. One of the main things that can sink a SA is someone from the firm complaining about them (even if it's kind of petty).

4. Being a complete social outcast can be a problem too. You don't need to be the life of the party, but if you spend all if your time staring at your shoes, people may speak ill of you.

5. General unprofessionalism. At said hiring partner's firm, there was once a summer who would walk around the office without shoes on (just socks). That kind of thing can also get you dinged.

[3rdYrLitigator]

1) Work Product
2) Hours put in
3) 2L Grades
4) Attending social events
5) Being well liked
6) Working in an active practice group (i.e., lit as opposed to corp)
7) Working in a single practice group rather than moving around

I have a family member who is a hiring partner. I've been told the following:

1. Work product. Great work product can trump most things. In the end, it's your work product that they are selling. Said hiring partner has given offers to people who were generally disliked and even made somewhat of an arse of themselves during firm events because their work product was excellent.
2. Being generally liked/desired. This collapses several of your points. If a practice group head tells the hiring partner "I want X", then X is going to get an offer barring some other extraordinary circumstances. There are of course, a variety of reasons why a partner would think that of a SA. It tends to be a mix of work product and personality. It also may depend on pre-law school experience that jives with the practice group.

Other factors fall into the "can only hurt you" category.

1. 2L grades won't matter unless they fall to the point of being worrisome. If you had a 3.7 1L year and a 2.7 2L year, that could cause problems. Falling from a 3.7 to a 3.6 is no big deal. By contrast, going from a 3.5 to a 3.7 probably won't really help you.

2. Practice group can cause a no-offer if you make them think that you are dead set on a practice group where they won't be needing anybody. Telling them, "All I've ever wanted to do is securitization work" could be problematic.

3. Don't anger anyone. Sounds easy enough, but you would be surprised. Make sure you know what expectations are RE: deadlines. If you tell someone you are going to do something, do it. Generally, don't be flaky. One of the main things that can sink a SA is someone from the firm complaining about them (even if it's kind of petty).

4. Being a complete social outcast can be a problem too. You don't need to be the life of the party, but if you spend all if your time staring at your shoes, people may speak ill of you.

5. General unprofessionalism. At said hiring partner's firm, there was once a summer who would around the office without shoes on (just socks). That kind of thing can also get you dinged.

I agree with all of this. I will say that this past year it looked like it was a little harder in regards to which groups you chose. At some firms, if you did a lot of work in a particular group that wasn't hiring, and no one in other groups got to know you, you were at risk. This wasn't a problem when I was coming through, but if you're interested in a slow group, I'd try to work with partners in other groups.

[lsb]

1) Work Product
2) Hours put in
3) 2L Grades
4) Attending social events
5) Being well liked
6) Working in an active practice group (i.e., lit as opposed to corp)
7) Working in a single practice group rather than moving around

I have a family member who is a hiring partner. I've been told the following:

1. Work product. Great work product can trump most things. In the end, it's your work product that they are selling. Said hiring partner has given offers to people who were generally disliked and even made somewhat of an arse of themselves during firm events because their work product was excellent.
2. Being generally liked/desired. This collapses several of your points. If a practice group head tells the hiring partner "I want X", then X is going to get an offer barring some other extraordinary circumstances. There are of course, a variety of reasons why a partner would think that of a SA. It tends to be a mix of work product and personality. It also may depend on pre-law school experience that jives with the practice group.

Other factors fall into the "can only hurt you" category.

1. 2L grades won't matter unless they fall to the point of being worrisome. If you had a 3.7 1L year and a 2.7 2L year, that could cause problems. Falling from a 3.7 to a 3.6 is no big deal. By contrast, going from a 3.5 to a 3.7 probably won't really help you.

2. Practice group can cause a no-offer if you make them think that you are dead set on a practice group where they won't be needing anybody. Telling them, "All I've ever wanted to do is securitization work" could be problematic.

3. Don't anger anyone. Sounds easy enough, but you would be surprised. Make sure you know what expectations are RE: deadlines. If you tell someone you are going to do something, do it. Generally, don't be flaky. One of the main things that can sink a SA is someone from the firm complaining about them (even if it's kind of petty).

4. Being a complete social outcast can be a problem too. You don't need to be the life of the party, but if you spend all if your time staring at your shoes, people may speak ill of you.

5. General unprofessionalism. At said hiring partner's firm, there was once a summer who would walk around the office without shoes on (just socks). That kind of thing can also get you dinged.

LOL How stupid can people get

[nealric]

LOL How stupid can people get

I can kind of understand. I mean, it was always hot in my office when I was a SA. Sometimes it was nice to slip your shoes off under your desk. I can *kind of* see how someone might do that and just absent-mindedly walk out of their office to make a copy or something without putting their shoes back on.

[TheJudge]

Are there any black partners in your firm?

How are black associates viewed in general by the firm?

Is it all down to hard work for everyone?

Please be honest and give us an overview of your observations.

From what I can tell, AA get treated way differently. They are also allowed way more leeway when it comes to hours for instance. You know, my firm really likes to pay 160K a year for people that underperform.

And he's abusing the anonymous feature badly and thus gets outted. TheJudge, you are warned and are on thin ice.

Why? I made a sarcastic remark to someone's boneheaded question? I mean what is the poster thinking? Because he is URM he will get some sort of cushy postition and no one will dare give him any of the stressful stuff?

[markakis]

Are there any black partners in your firm?

How are black associates viewed in general by the firm?

Is it all down to hard work for everyone?

Please be honest and give us an overview of your observations.

From what I can tell, AA get treated way differently. They are also allowed way more leeway when it comes to hours for instance. You know, my firm really likes to pay 160K a year for people that underperform.

And he's abusing the anonymous feature badly and thus gets outted. TheJudge, you are warned and are on thin ice.

Why? I made a sarcastic remark to someone's boneheaded question? I mean what is the poster thinking? Because he is URM he will get some sort of cushy postition and no one will dare give him any of the stressful stuff?

I'm with you a 100%, TheJudge. I am an URM but it does get to me when some urms just seem to want a life-time free pass. It's almost as if they don't want to earn their keep anymore, which I find somewhat irritating

[Renzo]

And he's abusing the anonymous feature badly and thus gets outted. TheJudge, you are warned and are on thin ice.

Why? I made a sarcastic remark to someone's boneheaded question? I mean what is the poster thinking? Because he is URM he will get some sort of cushy postition and no one will dare give him any of the stressful stuff?

You should feel free to use sarcasm and to argue that people are boneheads, but don't try and hide in an anonymous post. Stand behind your sarcasm or keep it to yourself.

[democrattotheend]

Hi. Thanks for doing this...this thread has been very informative for me, even though I am only a 0L, because I think it's important to gain insight into what lawyers actually do before making the investment in law school. Threads like this are helpful because they go beyond what the firms tell you on their website and give insight into what it's actually like, so I appreciate your taking the time.

Here's my question: A lot of firms tout pro bono on their website, and many state that they give billable hours credit for pro bono and that they treat pro bono hours the same as other hours for bonuses, promotions, etc. Do they really mean that, or is it just PR? Is it looked down upon to do too much pro bono work, even if the firm gives billable hours credit? If so, how many hours of pro bono work are considered acceptable to count towards billable?

If you are not at a firm that gives billable credit for pro bono, my specific question may not be relevant, but either way, can you give me a general sense of how pro bono work is viewed by managing partners and other people who have a say in whether you stay or not?

[Kohinoor]

I'm with you a 100%, TheJudge. I am an URM but it does get to me when some urms just seem to want a life-time free pass. It's almost as if they don't want to earn their keep anymore, which I find somewhat irritating

You're abusing the anon feature.

[markakis]

I'm with you a 100%, TheJudge. I am an URM but it does get to me when some urms just seem to want a life-time free pass. It's almost as if they don't want to earn their keep anymore, which I find somewhat irritating

You're abusing the anon feature.

Bite me

[06072010]

I'm going to out this poster, I think. Stop the abuse of the anon function.

[06072010]

I'm going to out this poster, I think. Stop the abuse of the anon function.

And banned.