2023 Vault/Firsthand Rankings Forum

[Anonymous User]

GDC has one of the strongest RE groups in the country.

No one said it didn’t, just that it isn’t normally touted, by anyone—at least at OCI or socially around the water cooler.

GDC is a very well regarded firm. Where is not touted? By law students?

No like the RE group isn't touted. Which kind of makes sense? RE isn't really discussed in top law schools even though it can be a fascinating practice area. RE/RX are the two most underrated fields (and the places where lawyers can have true business-side exits)

Are the biz side real estate exits going to RE specific lawyers or more so M&A/CapM lawyers with a significant number of RE transactions?

[Anonymous User]

Well Vault is basically a ranking of New York corporate practices. It's pretty worthless beyond that, whether it's for litigation or corporate in other markets. Just see how far down Williams & Connolly and Susman are, despite their undisputed litigation prowess.

[Anonymous User]

GDC has one of the strongest RE groups in the country.

No one said it didn’t, just that it isn’t normally touted, by anyone—at least at OCI or socially around the water cooler.

GDC is a very well regarded firm. Where is not touted? By law students?

No like the RE group isn't touted. Which kind of makes sense? RE isn't really discussed in top law schools even though it can be a fascinating practice area. RE/RX are the two most underrated fields (and the places where lawyers can have true business-side exits)

Are the biz side real estate exits going to RE specific lawyers or more so M&A/CapM lawyers with a significant number of RE transactions?

At my current firm (AmLaw 200, but biggest corporate shop in town), M&A feeds to other verticals/some PE. RE feeds to RE Dev, the major builders, and REPE. YMMV when it comes to bigger markets, but my instinct is that RE is a different enough world from traditional business that M&A lawyers wouldn't get hired for biz-side roles.

[Anonymous User]

Well Vault is basically a ranking of New York corporate practices. It's pretty worthless beyond that, whether it's for litigation or corporate in other markets. Just see how far down Williams & Connolly and Susman are, despite their undisputed litigation prowess.

Basically worthless is a vast overstatement. Yes, other markets might need to shuffle the ranks around but your v50 is still a v50 homie

[Anonymous User]

Well Vault is basically a ranking of New York corporate practices. It's pretty worthless beyond that, whether it's for litigation or corporate in other markets. Just see how far down Williams & Connolly and Susman are, despite their undisputed litigation prowess.

Basically worthless is a vast overstatement. Yes, other markets might need to shuffle the ranks around but your v50 is still a v50 homie

Midlevel at V100 here. Turned down a couple of V10s to avoid the churn and burn. I k ow several of my colleagues who washed and burned out at their V10 after two years and moved immediately in-house. Now they're making ~150K while I'm making close to $400K while fielding offers from recruiters hovering $250K. Poor guys but I guess you could say they had their two-year peak.

[Res Ipsa Loquitter]

GDC has one of the strongest RE groups in the country.

No one said it didn’t, just that it isn’t normally touted, by anyone—at least at OCI or socially around the water cooler.

GDC is a very well regarded firm. Where is not touted? By law students?

Okay and then replace GDC with [any AmLaw 100 firm].

I have no connection to GDC and that’s not accurate. They’re a top dog in LA along with Latham, plus they have a great DC office and appellate practice — both of which law students at top schools are aware of. They’re great in Texas, too. Idea that GDC is just a random Amlaw 100 is bullshit — it’s an elite firm.

[Anonymous User]

Well Vault is basically a ranking of New York corporate practices. It's pretty worthless beyond that, whether it's for litigation or corporate in other markets. Just see how far down Williams & Connolly and Susman are, despite their undisputed litigation prowess.

Basically worthless is a vast overstatement. Yes, other markets might need to shuffle the ranks around but your v50 is still a v50 homie

Meh. Take Houston for example. Skadden (a "V5") is bottom of the barrel for corporate, while Kirkland runs the show. Another example: Vinson & Elkins >>>>> STB or White & Case in Houston corp.

The worthlessness is even more pronounced for litigation. I mean Susman and Munger are around the V40 mark, but both are orders of magnitude more selective than every single one of the V5s except Wachtell. This all helps explain Gibson's ranking too. It's traditionally more of a litigation powerhouse, although it still has a respectable corporate practice. Plus, its not a NYC-centric firm, like Skadden for example.

You look at other markets like California, DC, Chicago, Atlanta, Boston, and it's a similar story.

[Anonymous User]

Well Vault is basically a ranking of New York corporate practices. It's pretty worthless beyond that, whether it's for litigation or corporate in other markets. Just see how far down Williams & Connolly and Susman are, despite their undisputed litigation prowess.

Basically worthless is a vast overstatement. Yes, other markets might need to shuffle the ranks around but your v50 is still a v50 homie

Meh. Take Houston for example. Skadden (a "V5") is bottom of the barrel for corporate, while Kirkland runs the show. Another example: Vinson & Elkins >>>>> STB or White & Case in Houston corp.

The worthlessness is even more pronounced for litigation. I mean Susman and Munger are around the V40 mark, but both are orders of magnitude more selective than every single one of the V5s except Wachtell. This all helps explain Gibson's ranking too. It's traditionally more of a litigation powerhouse, although it still has a respectable corporate practice. Plus, its not a NYC-centric firm, like Skadden for example.

You look at other markets like California, DC, Chicago, Atlanta, Boston, and it's a similar story.

I mean I’d still call that merely a reshuffle. First set the lit boutiques aside, they do their own thing, same with wlrk. KE might jump a bit in Houston while STB/skadden fall but on the whole those latter shops still have the national rep of those firms. Likewise LW and GDC might rule CA, where STB/DPW suffer a bit. That said I’m prob still taking a V10 out of market over something like Baker Botts in TX or Paul Hastings/OMM in CA. Sure it won’t be the top dog but likely higher quality of work especially when you factor in cross office these days

[Anonymous User]

Well Vault is basically a ranking of New York corporate practices. It's pretty worthless beyond that, whether it's for litigation or corporate in other markets. Just see how far down Williams & Connolly and Susman are, despite their undisputed litigation prowess.

Basically worthless is a vast overstatement. Yes, other markets might need to shuffle the ranks around but your v50 is still a v50 homie

Meh. Take Houston for example. Skadden (a "V5") is bottom of the barrel for corporate, while Kirkland runs the show. Another example: Vinson & Elkins >>>>> STB or White & Case in Houston corp.

The worthlessness is even more pronounced for litigation. I mean Susman and Munger are around the V40 mark, but both are orders of magnitude more selective than every single one of the V5s except Wachtell. This all helps explain Gibson's ranking too. It's traditionally more of a litigation powerhouse, although it still has a respectable corporate practice. Plus, its not a NYC-centric firm, like Skadden for example.

You look at other markets like California, DC, Chicago, Atlanta, Boston, and it's a similar story.

I mean I’d still call that merely a reshuffle. First set the lit boutiques aside, they do their own thing, same with wlrk. KE might jump a bit in Houston while STB/skadden fall but on the whole those latter shops still have the national rep of those firms. Likewise LW and GDC might rule CA, where STB/DPW suffer a bit. That said I’m prob still taking a V10 out of market over something like Baker Botts in TX or Paul Hastings/OMM in CA. Sure it won’t be the top dog but likely higher quality of work especially when you factor in cross office these days

You'd be out of your mind to take Skadden over Baker Botts in Houston corp, just as one example. Baker Botts is a declining firm, but places like Skadden/White&Case/Jones Day are just non-players in the Houston market. New York is the easiest market to get, and it absorbs massive numbers of associates from law schools each year (especially for corp). This cycles back into the Vault votes, and what you end up with is a NYC-corp dominated ranking.

You tout Skadden's national rep. But outside NYC and Delaware there isn't a single Skadden office where it's at the top of the local market (or anywhere near it). The closest it gets is DC, which is a decent office (but definitely not top 5). But anywhere else, looking at Vault would be totally useless. And if you're looking at litigation, Skadden isn't even at the top for NYC.

Another example. If you graduate from, say, Harvard, and you want to stay in Boston, the Vault rankings miss the mark completely. Ropes, Wilmer, and Goodwin run the show there.

Or if you want to be an appellate litigator in DC. You'd want to go to places like Gibson, Kirkland (although tbd with Clement leaving), Sidley, Jenner (if you're liberal), Jones Day (if you're a scotus clerk) etc. Looking at the Vault rankings as your primary reference wouldn't help you in any way.

[Anonymous User]

Well Vault is basically a ranking of New York corporate practices. It's pretty worthless beyond that, whether it's for litigation or corporate in other markets. Just see how far down Williams & Connolly and Susman are, despite their undisputed litigation prowess.

Basically worthless is a vast overstatement. Yes, other markets might need to shuffle the ranks around but your v50 is still a v50 homie

Meh. Take Houston for example. Skadden (a "V5") is bottom of the barrel for corporate, while Kirkland runs the show. Another example: Vinson & Elkins >>>>> STB or White & Case in Houston corp.

The worthlessness is even more pronounced for litigation. I mean Susman and Munger are around the V40 mark, but both are orders of magnitude more selective than every single one of the V5s except Wachtell. This all helps explain Gibson's ranking too. It's traditionally more of a litigation powerhouse, although it still has a respectable corporate practice. Plus, its not a NYC-centric firm, like Skadden for example.

You look at other markets like California, DC, Chicago, Atlanta, Boston, and it's a similar story.

I mean I’d still call that merely a reshuffle. First set the lit boutiques aside, they do their own thing, same with wlrk. KE might jump a bit in Houston while STB/skadden fall but on the whole those latter shops still have the national rep of those firms. Likewise LW and GDC might rule CA, where STB/DPW suffer a bit. That said I’m prob still taking a V10 out of market over something like Baker Botts in TX or Paul Hastings/OMM in CA. Sure it won’t be the top dog but likely higher quality of work especially when you factor in cross office these days

You'd be out of your mind to take Skadden over Baker Botts in Houston corp, just as one example. Baker Botts is a declining firm, but places like Skadden/White&Case/Jones Day are just non-players in the Houston market. New York is the easiest market to get, and it absorbs massive numbers of associates from law schools each year (especially for corp). This cycles back into the Vault votes, and what you end up with is a NYC-corp dominated ranking.

You tout Skadden's national rep. But outside NYC and Delaware there isn't a single Skadden office where it's at the top of the local market (or anywhere near it). The closest it gets is DC, which is a decent office (but definitely not top 5). But anywhere else, looking at Vault would be totally useless. And if you're looking at litigation, Skadden isn't even at the top for NYC.

Another example. If you graduate from, say, Harvard, and you want to stay in Boston, the Vault rankings miss the mark completely. Ropes, Wilmer, and Goodwin run the show there.

Or if you want to be an appellate litigator in DC. You'd want to go to places like Gibson, Kirkland (although tbd with Clement leaving), Sidley, Jenner (if you're liberal), Jones Day (if you're a scotus clerk) etc. Looking at the Vault rankings as your primary reference wouldn't help you in any way.

I take your general point, but if you're a top grad unsure as to corporate group or geographic preference long term I'm still going with a v10 to be safe (e.g., Skadden Hou over BB Hou). In the lateral market from somewhere like TX or Boston, I don't VE/BB or Wilmer/Goodwin are going to hit the same, even if they are well respected locally.

Agreed that vault isn't gospel, but it does shed light on general corporate power, much of which is derived from NYC-centric industries, hence why I still think only slight mods to the regional ranking are truly warranted

[Anonymous User]

Well Vault is basically a ranking of New York corporate practices. It's pretty worthless beyond that, whether it's for litigation or corporate in other markets. Just see how far down Williams & Connolly and Susman are, despite their undisputed litigation prowess.

Basically worthless is a vast overstatement. Yes, other markets might need to shuffle the ranks around but your v50 is still a v50 homie

Meh. Take Houston for example. Skadden (a "V5") is bottom of the barrel for corporate, while Kirkland runs the show. Another example: Vinson & Elkins >>>>> STB or White & Case in Houston corp.

The worthlessness is even more pronounced for litigation. I mean Susman and Munger are around the V40 mark, but both are orders of magnitude more selective than every single one of the V5s except Wachtell. This all helps explain Gibson's ranking too. It's traditionally more of a litigation powerhouse, although it still has a respectable corporate practice. Plus, its not a NYC-centric firm, like Skadden for example.

You look at other markets like California, DC, Chicago, Atlanta, Boston, and it's a similar story.

I mean I’d still call that merely a reshuffle. First set the lit boutiques aside, they do their own thing, same with wlrk. KE might jump a bit in Houston while STB/skadden fall but on the whole those latter shops still have the national rep of those firms. Likewise LW and GDC might rule CA, where STB/DPW suffer a bit. That said I’m prob still taking a V10 out of market over something like Baker Botts in TX or Paul Hastings/OMM in CA. Sure it won’t be the top dog but likely higher quality of work especially when you factor in cross office these days

You'd be out of your mind to take Skadden over Baker Botts in Houston corp, just as one example. Baker Botts is a declining firm, but places like Skadden/White&Case/Jones Day are just non-players in the Houston market. New York is the easiest market to get, and it absorbs massive numbers of associates from law schools each year (especially for corp). This cycles back into the Vault votes, and what you end up with is a NYC-corp dominated ranking.

You tout Skadden's national rep. But outside NYC and Delaware there isn't a single Skadden office where it's at the top of the local market (or anywhere near it). The closest it gets is DC, which is a decent office (but definitely not top 5). But anywhere else, looking at Vault would be totally useless. And if you're looking at litigation, Skadden isn't even at the top for NYC.

Another example. If you graduate from, say, Harvard, and you want to stay in Boston, the Vault rankings miss the mark completely. Ropes, Wilmer, and Goodwin run the show there.

Or if you want to be an appellate litigator in DC. You'd want to go to places like Gibson, Kirkland (although tbd with Clement leaving), Sidley, Jenner (if you're liberal), Jones Day (if you're a scotus clerk) etc. Looking at the Vault rankings as your primary reference wouldn't help you in any way.

I take your general point, but if you're a top grad unsure as to corporate group or geographic preference long term I'm still going with a v10 to be safe (e.g., Skadden Hou over BB Hou). In the lateral market from somewhere like TX or Boston, I don't VE/BB or Wilmer/Goodwin are going to hit the same, even if they are well respected locally.

Agreed that vault isn't gospel, but it does shed light on general corporate power, much of which is derived from NYC-centric industries, hence why I still think only slight mods to the regional ranking are truly warranted

To the extent that you are willing to cabin your point to corporate, it's a fair perspective (although I still disagree). Even for corporate, though, I would strongly encourage law students to do their due diligence and research their local markets. If you want to go to Texas and want to stay there long term, for example, going to Skadden based on Vault would be an extraordinarily ill-advised move. Even for corporate, many markets are not dependent on NY. Houston, for example, is overflowing with cash from energy transactions involving energy companies based in Houston.

For lit, I think it's basically worthless; probably downright misleading.

[Anonymous User]

Well Vault is basically a ranking of New York corporate practices. It's pretty worthless beyond that, whether it's for litigation or corporate in other markets. Just see how far down Williams & Connolly and Susman are, despite their undisputed litigation prowess.

Basically worthless is a vast overstatement. Yes, other markets might need to shuffle the ranks around but your v50 is still a v50 homie

Meh. Take Houston for example. Skadden (a "V5") is bottom of the barrel for corporate, while Kirkland runs the show. Another example: Vinson & Elkins >>>>> STB or White & Case in Houston corp.

The worthlessness is even more pronounced for litigation. I mean Susman and Munger are around the V40 mark, but both are orders of magnitude more selective than every single one of the V5s except Wachtell. This all helps explain Gibson's ranking too. It's traditionally more of a litigation powerhouse, although it still has a respectable corporate practice. Plus, its not a NYC-centric firm, like Skadden for example.

You look at other markets like California, DC, Chicago, Atlanta, Boston, and it's a similar story.

I mean I’d still call that merely a reshuffle. First set the lit boutiques aside, they do their own thing, same with wlrk. KE might jump a bit in Houston while STB/skadden fall but on the whole those latter shops still have the national rep of those firms. Likewise LW and GDC might rule CA, where STB/DPW suffer a bit. That said I’m prob still taking a V10 out of market over something like Baker Botts in TX or Paul Hastings/OMM in CA. Sure it won’t be the top dog but likely higher quality of work especially when you factor in cross office these days

You'd be out of your mind to take Skadden over Baker Botts in Houston corp, just as one example. Baker Botts is a declining firm, but places like Skadden/White&Case/Jones Day are just non-players in the Houston market. New York is the easiest market to get, and it absorbs massive numbers of associates from law schools each year (especially for corp). This cycles back into the Vault votes, and what you end up with is a NYC-corp dominated ranking.

You tout Skadden's national rep. But outside NYC and Delaware there isn't a single Skadden office where it's at the top of the local market (or anywhere near it). The closest it gets is DC, which is a decent office (but definitely not top 5). But anywhere else, looking at Vault would be totally useless. And if you're looking at litigation, Skadden isn't even at the top for NYC.

Another example. If you graduate from, say, Harvard, and you want to stay in Boston, the Vault rankings miss the mark completely. Ropes, Wilmer, and Goodwin run the show there.

Or if you want to be an appellate litigator in DC. You'd want to go to places like Gibson, Kirkland (although tbd with Clement leaving), Sidley, Jenner (if you're liberal), Jones Day (if you're a scotus clerk) etc. Looking at the Vault rankings as your primary reference wouldn't help you in any way.

I take your general point, but if you're a top grad unsure as to corporate group or geographic preference long term I'm still going with a v10 to be safe (e.g., Skadden Hou over BB Hou). In the lateral market from somewhere like TX or Boston, I don't VE/BB or Wilmer/Goodwin are going to hit the same, even if they are well respected locally.

Agreed that vault isn't gospel, but it does shed light on general corporate power, much of which is derived from NYC-centric industries, hence why I still think only slight mods to the regional ranking are truly warranted

To the extent that you are willing to cabin your point to corporate, it's a fair perspective (although I still disagree). Even for corporate, though, I would strongly encourage law students to do their due diligence and research their local markets. If you want to go to Texas and want to stay there long term, for example, going to Skadden based on Vault would be an extraordinarily ill-advised move. Even for corporate, many markets are not dependent on NY. Houston, for example, is overflowing with cash from energy transactions involving energy companies based in Houston.

For lit, I think it's basically worthless; probably downright misleading.

Very fair, I'd just add that law students should be careful about picking a secondary market firm that is viewed more positively in that location for corporate based on niche strength. E.g., be sure that you really will be ok with making a career out of energy if you pick BB over Skadden in Houston

[Anonymous User]

Is this rank change going to materially impact Milbank's recruiting at the T6?

[Sackboy]

Is this rank change going to materially impact Milbank's recruiting at the T6?

I'd imagine that it materially affects Milbank's recruiting everywhere outside of the T6, who are traditionally more focused on white shoe firms. Also, a completely silly thing to care about. This will matter to the same people who are considering Sidley, Weil, etc. V15 firms vs a V50. That Preffffftige of being a V15 will 100% flip some people. That should be obvious enough if you've ever talked to a law student.

[Billywonderful]

above, you say Kirkland runs the show. Ha! Kirkland's move to boot out Clement because he takes gun cases. Disgusting. Wait for the backlash, against the spineless.

[Anonymous User]

Is this rank change going to materially impact Milbank's recruiting at the T6?

If a 2L candidate is considering OCI offers from , for example, Milbank, MoFo, and OMM, s/he may pick Milbank over the other two because it is now higher ranked and on the rise. That decision might not have been obvious in the past.

[Anonymous User]

Is this rank change going to materially impact Milbank's recruiting at the T6?

If a 2L candidate is considering OCI offers from , for example, Milbank, MoFo, and OMM, s/he may pick Milbank over the other two because it is now higher ranked and on the rise. That decision might not have been obvious in the past.

Lol @ anyone who picks MoFo NY. If you want to do EC/VC, just work in CA.

[Anonymous User]

Is this rank change going to materially impact Milbank's recruiting at the T6?

If a 2L candidate is considering OCI offers from , for example, Milbank, MoFo, and OMM, s/he may pick Milbank over the other two because it is now higher ranked and on the rise. That decision might not have been obvious in the past.

Lol @ anyone who picks MoFo NY. If you want to do EC/VC, just work in CA.

MoFo doesn't really do EC/VC in California lol. Also NY has a strong EC/VC presence in Cooley/Gunderson/Fenwick

[Anonymous User]

Well Vault is basically a ranking of New York corporate practices. It's pretty worthless beyond that, whether it's for litigation or corporate in other markets. Just see how far down Williams & Connolly and Susman are, despite their undisputed litigation prowess.

Basically worthless is a vast overstatement. Yes, other markets might need to shuffle the ranks around but your v50 is still a v50 homie

Meh. Take Houston for example. Skadden (a "V5") is bottom of the barrel for corporate, while Kirkland runs the show. Another example: Vinson & Elkins >>>>> STB or White & Case in Houston corp.

The worthlessness is even more pronounced for litigation. I mean Susman and Munger are around the V40 mark, but both are orders of magnitude more selective than every single one of the V5s except Wachtell. This all helps explain Gibson's ranking too. It's traditionally more of a litigation powerhouse, although it still has a respectable corporate practice. Plus, its not a NYC-centric firm, like Skadden for example.

You look at other markets like California, DC, Chicago, Atlanta, Boston, and it's a similar story.

I mean I’d still call that merely a reshuffle. First set the lit boutiques aside, they do their own thing, same with wlrk. KE might jump a bit in Houston while STB/skadden fall but on the whole those latter shops still have the national rep of those firms. Likewise LW and GDC might rule CA, where STB/DPW suffer a bit. That said I’m prob still taking a V10 out of market over something like Baker Botts in TX or Paul Hastings/OMM in CA. Sure it won’t be the top dog but likely higher quality of work especially when you factor in cross office these days

This seems like a corporate lawyer’s perspective—V10 etc. satellites just don’t pull top talent in lit, and no litigator would be more impressed by Davis Polk DC (a fine firm to be clear) than Hogan DC or Jenner DC. The very top talent often doesn’t go to biglaw period, as you note. There are some exceptions of course, like Gibson’s powerhouse Dallas satellite, but people are impressed by it and go to it because it has top talent, not because it’s a V10.

[Anonymous User]

In my lower T14, its:

It’s kinda like the Greenberg Traurig/Jones Day of the V50. Sure, it’s there (on the list in that area), but not really because it’s good for the associate.

Feel like GDC gets a short shrift. Best litigation and real estate practices in the country - does the rest of the firm bring it down, or is it a matter of not being NYC based (even though it’s the firm’s largest office)?

Anon because I work here (for now) and am genuinely just curious as to the perception.

Could be the Steven Donziger business.

I think it’s also probably that its west coast based.

It’s a fantastic firm. The perception I get is that it’s seems great if you really want litigation, but that the other options are second rate to some of the other firms.

But who knows, when I get laid off I’ll be wearing some GDC swag gladly.

No 1Ls know who Steven Donziger is

[Anonymous User]

Is this rank change going to materially impact Milbank's recruiting at the T6?

If a 2L candidate is considering OCI offers from , for example, Milbank, MoFo, and OMM, s/he may pick Milbank over the other two because it is now higher ranked and on the rise. That decision might not have been obvious in the past.

Lol @ anyone who picks MoFo NY. If you want to do EC/VC, just work in CA.

MoFo doesn't really do EC/VC in California lol. Also NY has a strong EC/VC presence in Cooley/Gunderson/Fenwick

Then a bigger lol @ anyone who chooses MoFo NY lol.

[Anonymous User]

There’s the V3. And then there is the V5 and below. The V3 are hands down better than FisherPrice or Gibson or Kirkland or whatever (even a V3 in a satellite market).

Once you’re in V10 land, you’re all doing top notch work, sure but you’re fungible. Slight nuances in the office, sure. But if you are in the V10, you’re all just a Weil…waiting a while for your turn to become another Shearman.

But, everyone trying to act like your firm is comparable in prestige (on a message thread that literally was made based on prestige rankings by large firm attorneys) is funny.

Random poster #4593 can think Gibson Dunns RE group makes them slept on, but at the end of the day—the majority of your peers think The V3 is better. I personally think the V3 should be a term that doesn’t refer to whatever firm pops in and out of the less definitive V5.

[tlsguy2020]

Sure it won’t be the top dog but likely higher quality of work especially when you factor in cross office these days

This might be the dumbest take I've ever read on TLS

[Anonymous User]

There’s the V3. And then there is the V5 and below. The V3 are hands down better than FisherPrice or Gibson or Kirkland or whatever (even a V3 in a satellite market).

Once you’re in V10 land, you’re all doing top notch work, sure but you’re fungible. Slight nuances in the office, sure. But if you are in the V10, you’re all just a Weil…waiting a while for your turn to become another Shearman.

But, everyone trying to act like your firm is comparable in prestige (on a message thread that literally was made based on prestige rankings by large firm attorneys) is funny.

Random poster #4593 can think Gibson Dunns RE group makes them slept on, but at the end of the day—the majority of your peers think The V3 is better. I personally think the V3 should be a term that doesn’t refer to whatever firm pops in and out of the less definitive V5.

Bro, v3 isn’t even close to a thing. You’re take is accurate as far as Wlrk but who didn’t know that already. Skadden and Cravath are arguably worse than a lot of the v10 in more ways than one.

Cravath has failed to adjust with the times and is only now realizing it can’t just operate out of NYC. Plus it’s profit metrics have been down for a while. Skadden is also very NYC centric and traditionally less prestigious than many of the v10.

A delineation of truly elite vs middling elite is kind of what this thread is about - and nothing points to the answer being v3

[Anonymous User]

Any NY-focused ranking that puts CSM above WLRK or S&C below LM/Skadden is legit stupid and everyone knows it lmao. Don't worry about and just live your lives. If you're succeeding, you'll feel it. You won't need a Vault survey