2022 Summer Associate Thread (direct all your SA Qs here) Forum

[Anonymous User]

SA at a v100 in a secondary market.

Associates in our office have been telling us…

What entitled brats. Sure, you don't need to do much as a summer, but this is taking it to an extreme. I think you're right that they will get offers, but it doesn't bode well for these SA's reputation at the firm. There was one SA in my class who routinely prioritized summer lunches over real work, and that pissed off a number of attorneys that they had to work with after graduation. Hard to come back from that……

In what way did that summer do that? I mean, I miss weekly meetings for particular deals and I’m not skipping lunch with a partner to work on a markup.

[Anonymous User]

SA at a v100 in a secondary market.

Associates in our office have been telling us not to worry about getting offers, and I appreciate that, but I'm wondering how far that goes. There are 2 other summers in my office, and they seem to be taking this idea and running with it: they're arriving late and leaving early without telling anyone; they're telling associates that they want particular summer events when no one is asking, and when our summer events have already been planned and organized in advance; they're turning down assignments when they're asked, even when they have 0 or 1 active assignments; they're saying that they're going to take days off regardless of what anyone at the firm says; and they aren't posting their relatively few assignments to our internal system (and we've been repeatedly instructed to do this).

The other SAs have started talking to me about how I'm doing too much, they're constantly reminding me that I don't need to worry about getting an offer, and now they're telling me that they're uncomfortable because I'm not arriving late/leaving early with them. I'm not gunning--I haven't asked for work at all, but I've been completing the assignments that are given to me, entering them in our internal system, and showing up/leaving on time.

I understand that we're all likely to get offers, but I do intend to work here after I graduate, and I don't want to be known as someone that is unreliable. At the same time, I don't want to alienate the other summers by acting differently. So far, I've just been keeping my head down and doing my thing, but should I change course at all? Am I overly concerned?

What entitled brats. Sure, you don't need to do much as a summer, but this is taking it to an extreme. I think you're right that they will get offers, but it doesn't bode well for these SA's reputation at the firm. There was one SA in my class who routinely prioritized summer lunches over real work, and that pissed off a number of attorneys that they had to work with after graduation. Hard to come back from that.

What do you mean by "other SAs have started talking to me"? Is it just these two? Or are others starting to join the two bad apples? If the former, then keep your sideways blinders on. Those two won't last at the firm, and their opinion doesn't matter. The firm is probably aware of what these two are doing, and will handle it how they want. If the later, then it's a bit harder. If it were me, I wouldn't change, but I'd try to be more stealth (e.g., talk less about assignments with them and more about your extravagant lunch plans).

If it gets worse (i.e., these and other summers ramp up the pressure), I'd consider politely raising the issue (without naming names) to recruiting (or whomever is in charge of the program) not to tattle on what they are doing, but instead to say that their behavior is having a negative impact on your experience as you try to meet and work with your future colleagues. If the firm was just going to ignore it because it seems isolated to a couple individuals, that might push them to do something about it.

Does your firm have mid-summer evals? Mine did and they were admittedly a joke. But I would think intentionally arriving late/leaving early and turning down assignments when you have no work would be something that would be raised at one of those.

Do you have an assigned associate mentor? They might have some helpful perspectives on this as well.

It's just the two, but the three of us are the only SAs in this office. I definitely try to avoid talking about assignments and arrival/departure time with them, but they just keep bringing it up. They've been getting more and more overt about their behavior as the summer has progressed, and they seem to want me to join in so that we're all acting the same way. I'm all for joining together for smaller things--like to ask an associate to lunch, or to go out for coffee mid-afternoon, etc.--but I'm not really willing to risk my reputation to turn down work and go home at 3:00PM every day.

We do have mid-summer evals, though, and those should be coming up soon. Maybe that will help. I have an associate mentor, and they're great, but I really don't want to have to raise this to anyone at the firm because it'd be very obvious who I am talking about, and I want to keep as good of a relationship with the other SAs as possible. I'm just trying to strike the right balance; no one wants to be the gunner SA who doesn't seem to have their peers' backs.

[Anonymous User]

SA at a v100 in a secondary market.

Associates in our office have been telling us…

What entitled brats. Sure, you don't need to do much as a summer, but this is taking it to an extreme. I think you're right that they will get offers, but it doesn't bode well for these SA's reputation at the firm. There was one SA in my class who routinely prioritized summer lunches over real work, and that pissed off a number of attorneys that they had to work with after graduation. Hard to come back from that……

In what way did that summer do that? I mean, I miss weekly meetings for particular deals and I’m not skipping lunch with a partner to work on a markup.

Yeah it was a little different than that. More like routinely turning down opportunities to observe/join important calls because they wanted to plan lunch with associates. I agree that as a summer I would treat a lunch with a partner as on par with a team meeting or the need to turn around markup.

[Anonymous User]

SA at a v100 in a secondary market.

Associates in our office ...

I would just keep doing what you have been doing. Don't mind them. If your summer class is that small I highly doubt people haven't noticed their immaturity, and it sounds like they probably won't survive more than 2-3 years of biglaw anyways (not that there's necessarily something wrong with not wanting to have billing dictate your life). So I wouldn't make any decisions motivated by your future interpersonal relationships with those bozos.

[Anonymous User]

It's just the two, but the three of us are the only SAs in this office. I definitely try to avoid talking about assignments and arrival/departure time with them, but they just keep bringing it up. They've been getting more and more overt about their behavior as the summer has progressed, and they seem to want me to join in so that we're all acting the same way. I'm all for joining together for smaller things--like to ask an associate to lunch, or to go out for coffee mid-afternoon, etc.--but I'm not really willing to risk my reputation to turn down work and go home at 3:00PM every day.

We do have mid-summer evals, though, and those should be coming up soon. Maybe that will help. I have an associate mentor, and they're great, but I really don't want to have to raise this to anyone at the firm because it'd be very obvious who I am talking about, and I want to keep as good of a relationship with the other SAs as possible. I'm just trying to strike the right balance; no one wants to be the gunner SA who doesn't seem to have their peers' backs.

Ah, that's much different. First thing, you should absolutely be taking time to go out for coffee and lunch. That's not a compromise/slacker thing - that's the point of a summer program. You get to meet people in a social setting who you'll be working with later.

I see why you wouldn't want to flag things up the chain given the small class size. However, if you do, I'm sure that the firm can find a way to try to cover your tracks. For example, recruiting could send an email to all summers indicating it's come to their attention that all three of you are doing X, Y, and Z, and that needs to stop. Or they could raise it with the other two in their reviews, which couldn't possibly come back to you.

You could also try to tell some white lies to get them off your case. "I'm sticking around until 5pm because I'm meeting up with friends in the area." "I've been surfing the internet looking at bar trip options the whole afternoon - can you believe we get paid for this?" "Gotta love when you milk a 4 hour research assignment for two days." Obviously lying doesn't feel good, but if they feel like you agree with them they may be less pushy about what you actually do.

[Anonymous User]

SA at a v100 in a secondary market.

Associates in our office have been telling us not to worry about getting offers, and I appreciate that, but I'm wondering how far that goes. There are 2 other summers in my office, and they seem to be taking this idea and running with it: they're arriving late and leaving early without telling anyone; they're telling associates that they want particular summer events when no one is asking, and when our summer events have already been planned and organized in advance; they're turning down assignments when they're asked, even when they have 0 or 1 active assignments; they're saying that they're going to take days off regardless of what anyone at the firm says; and they aren't posting their relatively few assignments to our internal system (and we've been repeatedly instructed to do this).

The other SAs have started talking to me about how I'm doing too much, they're constantly reminding me that I don't need to worry about getting an offer, and now they're telling me that they're uncomfortable because I'm not arriving late/leaving early with them. I'm not gunning--I haven't asked for work at all, but I've been completing the assignments that are given to me, entering them in our internal system, and showing up/leaving on time.

I understand that we're all likely to get offers, but I do intend to work here after I graduate, and I don't want to be known as someone that is unreliable. At the same time, I don't want to alienate the other summers by acting differently. So far, I've just been keeping my head down and doing my thing, but should I change course at all? Am I overly concerned?

What entitled brats. Sure, you don't need to do much as a summer, but this is taking it to an extreme. I think you're right that they will get offers, but it doesn't bode well for these SA's reputation at the firm. There was one SA in my class who routinely prioritized summer lunches over real work, and that pissed off a number of attorneys that they had to work with after graduation. Hard to come back from that.

What do you mean by "other SAs have started talking to me"? Is it just these two? Or are others starting to join the two bad apples? If the former, then keep your sideways blinders on. Those two won't last at the firm, and their opinion doesn't matter. The firm is probably aware of what these two are doing, and will handle it how they want. If the later, then it's a bit harder. If it were me, I wouldn't change, but I'd try to be more stealth (e.g., talk less about assignments with them and more about your extravagant lunch plans).

If it gets worse (i.e., these and other summers ramp up the pressure), I'd consider politely raising the issue (without naming names) to recruiting (or whomever is in charge of the program) not to tattle on what they are doing, but instead to say that their behavior is having a negative impact on your experience as you try to meet and work with your future colleagues. If the firm was just going to ignore it because it seems isolated to a couple individuals, that might push them to do something about it.

Does your firm have mid-summer evals? Mine did and they were admittedly a joke. But I would think intentionally arriving late/leaving early and turning down assignments when you have no work would be something that would be raised at one of those.

Do you have an assigned associate mentor? They might have some helpful perspectives on this as well.

It's just the two, but the three of us are the only SAs in this office. I definitely try to avoid talking about assignments and arrival/departure time with them, but they just keep bringing it up. They've been getting more and more overt about their behavior as the summer has progressed, and they seem to want me to join in so that we're all acting the same way. I'm all for joining together for smaller things--like to ask an associate to lunch, or to go out for coffee mid-afternoon, etc.--but I'm not really willing to risk my reputation to turn down work and go home at 3:00PM every day.

We do have mid-summer evals, though, and those should be coming up soon. Maybe that will help. I have an associate mentor, and they're great, but I really don't want to have to raise this to anyone at the firm because it'd be very obvious who I am talking about, and I want to keep as good of a relationship with the other SAs as possible. I'm just trying to strike the right balance; no one wants to be the gunner SA who doesn't seem to have their peers' backs.

never ever cooperate in a prisoner’s dilemma

[Anonymous User]

never ever cooperate in a prisoner’s dilemma

Not a real prisoner's dilemma because 1) OP doing something different from the brats doesn't actually end up in a significantly better/worse case for either (it's actually worse for them all) and 2) OP pretending to agree while keeping up the good work doesn't make anything better for the brats or materially worse for OP.

I guess you could see it as a prisoner's dilemma in that everybody working like OP is best for all, OP working while the brats don't work looks REALLY bad for the brats, and everybody being a brat just says it was a mediocre summer class. But what I recommended isn't participating in that, and OP isn't looking at it through the lens of who looks best to the firm, anyway. If that were the case, OP should just keep up the status quo because OP gets the proverbial zero years in prison, whereas the brats just look like brats.

Nice try though.

[LBJ's Hair]

regarding the three person summer thing -

it's pretty obvious what's happening: the two other summers are worried you're making them look bad. they want you to do what they're doing b/c it will make them feel better about their choices, they think there's safety in collection action, etc

I would be friendly and keep doing what you're doing.

if they want to show up at 10:30am, that's fine, probably doesn't matter.

but iif you're not comfortable with that, don't. (I wasn't, as a summer, because minimizing the downside risk of getting no-offered was my #1 priority, even if I probably could gotten away with it - didn't seem worth the extra hour of sleep or w/e)

[Anonymous User]

Another question about clothes.
So there is a girl in my summer class who outdresses everyone, almost to the extent that she is a little bit out of place. It is close to business attire, but not just black/white/grey suits. It is colorful, elegant, and delicate. Everyone else dresses casually and wears jeans on jeans days.
I want to be more polished, partially due to the pressure from her, but mainly because I realize it is a part of personal branding. "Someone who always looks put together" is definitely an image I want to convey.
But what are the pros and cons of being the one who outdresses others, who always has proper makeup on, and who always smells pleasant? Is this viewed as a people pleaser, especially towards males, in the firm?

[Anonymous User]

On the one hand, I think being remembered for your clothes is generally something to avoid, at least at the summer associate stage, which is kind of like a 10-week interview, and I think that's true for both dressing well and dressly badly. I also think there's a bit of a difference between looking put together, and looking fashionable/attractive, if that makes any sense, and that the latter isn't what you need to aim for at work.

That said, I lean conservative on this. Also, some people just have a very distinctive personal style and can carry it off. I hate to tell someone not to be themselves, if their style is otherwise work appropriate. And if those are the clothes you have, those are the clothes you have, too. I'm just not sure that the SA is time to work on a whole new, different style.

I guess mostly my issue is with trying to "outdress" people. That seems counterproductive to me, but it really depends on what you mean by that - who you're outdressing and by how much. If what you want to wear fits with the full-time associates, that's probably fine. If only very senior partners dress that way, or it's different from the rest of the firm, period, now's probably not the time to try it. I don't know if it will look like you're "people pleasing" (unless you mean you're going to look like you're trying to seduce male partners? honestly not sure what you mean by that), as much as it's just that you want the focus to be on your work, not your appearance.

I think it boils down to if you do excellent work and are valued for your work, you can probably wear what you like, but if you're struggling work-wise, standing out for your clothes will probably be held against you.

(This is the point at which I acknowledge that looking attractive/fashionable/hot can help women, even in the workplace, but I still feel like that's not what you want to be known for at work.)

"Proper" makeup is fine whenever, I'd say. I think there are still plenty of women who wear makeup every day. But again, if the rest of the firm is rocking the "my face but better" "no-makeup" relatively natural look, I wouldn't go for major smoky eye, brilliant red lip, and/or super contoured/heavily painted face.

"Smelling pleasant" is probably a bad thing to aim for, frankly. Like, no smell is good (BO is bad!) but there are so many people with scent allergies now that I would limit perfume to something that can only be smelled if someone gets way closer to you than any work colleague should.

[Anonymous User]

Another question about clothes.
So there is a girl in my summer class who outdresses everyone, almost to the extent that she is a little bit out of place. It is close to business attire, but not just black/white/grey suits. It is colorful, elegant, and delicate. Everyone else dresses casually and wears jeans on jeans days.
I want to be more polished, partially due to the pressure from her, but mainly because I realize it is a part of personal branding. "Someone who always looks put together" is definitely an image I want to convey.
But what are the pros and cons of being the one who outdresses others, who always has proper makeup on, and who always smells pleasant? Is this viewed as a people pleaser, especially towards males, in the firm?

As a male, heterosexual associate in his late 20s, I obviously will notice a noticeably well-dressed woman, but I would like to say that it has no real bearing on how I view people with regard to work/staffing/etc. (ignoring any implicit bias, I suppose).

I don't really care how well dressed or not someone is. What matters is whether they're responsive, work hard and are easy to get along with, and in my experience there are some people that are really well put together in a superficial sense (great at schmoozing up to partners, always looking sharp/well dressed/clean cut) that kind of suck to work with as actual associates, so yeah.

[Anonymous User]

Another question about clothes.
So there is a girl in my summer class who outdresses everyone, almost to the extent that she is a little bit out of place. It is close to business attire, but not just black/white/grey suits. It is colorful, elegant, and delicate. Everyone else dresses casually and wears jeans on jeans days.
I want to be more polished, partially due to the pressure from her, but mainly because I realize it is a part of personal branding. "Someone who always looks put together" is definitely an image I want to convey.
But what are the pros and cons of being the one who outdresses others, who always has proper makeup on, and who always smells pleasant? Is this viewed as a people pleaser, especially towards males, in the firm?

As a male, heterosexual associate in his late 20s, I obviously will notice a noticeably well-dressed woman, but I would like to say that it has no real bearing on how I view people with regard to work/staffing/etc. (ignoring any implicit bias, I suppose).

I don't really care how well dressed or not someone is. What matters is whether they're responsive, work hard and are easy to get along with, and in my experience there are some people that are really well put together in a superficial sense (great at schmoozing up to partners, always looking sharp/well dressed/clean cut) that kind of suck to work with as actual associates, so yeah.

As a counterpoint, I am going to staff people on my matters who I like and would want to hang out with socially (think the consulting style fit interview of "would I want to hang out with this person if we were stuck in an airport for 8 hours"). Now flashy dressing isn't the key to that, but doing whatever you can to make yourself someone easy to work with and reasonably fun to be spending time with on some idiotic 3am fire drill is a very good idea. Obviously attractive people have an edge here, like in the rest of life, because people on average like to hang out with them more. I'm not sure if this is "explicit bias" or "implicit bias", but reality is reality, and some people do just have a natural leg up (i.e., rich, attractive, well connected, etc...). I'm just not sure how much extra value spending a lot of time trying to dress flashy is going to really change that, so you might be better served by just dressing pretty nicely and instead spend your time working on things where effort can make more of a difference (like enthusiasm, learning quickly from mistakes, always meeting deadlines, having good communication skills, developing subject matter expertise, etc...).

[Anonymous User]

I wouldn’t fault someone for playing it safe with their wardrobe and I wouldn’t fault someone for leaning into their personal senses of style—no matter how dressy it might be. It’s more likely that this other summer associate really likes fashion and less likely that she’s trying to show anybody up.

[Anonymous User]

I wouldn’t fault someone for playing it safe with their wardrobe and I wouldn’t fault someone for leaning into their personal senses of style—no matter how dressy it might be. It’s more likely that this other summer associate really likes fashion and less likely that she’s trying to show anybody up.

IME, this is right. Anon because I was a summer who always got compliments on my custom-made, well-fitting professional clothing. I didn't do it to out-do anyone. I did it before biglaw. I know I stood out. But I fucking love dressing nicely and outside of food that's the only thing I spend a lot of my biglaw money on. It didn't harm me as a summer, as an associate at a liberal firm, or as at a more conservative firm. Just don't look down on people who don't care as much about wearing the best professional clothing, be comfortable standing out sometimes, and you'll be fine.

[Anonymous User]

I’m a litigation SA (my firm hires us into particular practice groups).

How many projects should I be completing per week on average? I’m worried that I’m working too slowly. Right now it seems like I’ll complete 8 substantive projects by the end of week 4.

[Anonymous User]

I’m a litigation SA (my firm hires us into particular practice groups).

How many projects should I be completing per week on average? I’m worried that I’m working too slowly. Right now it seems like I’ll complete 8 substantive projects by the end of week 4.

There's no way to answer this because it depends on the scope of the project.

[Anonymous User]

I am in a V20 firm in a secondary market. Most summer associates have very strong local ties and many went to the same school (the ranking is not high). A few of them spent a lot of effort hanging out with the rainmaker team in the office, grabbing coffee with the managing partners ...etc. When it comes to work assignments, these kids are always put on bigger and better cases. Now many associates just reach out to them directly.

The rest of us have to beg work everywhere, yet we still cannot get anything.

My questions are:
1. Is it common?
2. What would you recommend "uncool" kids like us to do?
3. When there is a rainmaker who has most of the good deals in that practice group, do you have to just kiss asses if it is what you want to do?

[BrowsingTLS]

I am in a V20 firm in a secondary market. Most summer associates have very strong local ties and many went to the same school (the ranking is not high). A few of them spent a lot of effort hanging out with the rainmaker team in the office, grabbing coffee with the managing partners ...etc. When it comes to work assignments, these kids are always put on bigger and better cases. Now many associates just reach out to them directly.

The rest of us have to beg work everywhere, yet we still cannot get anything.

My questions are:
1. Is it common?
2. What would you recommend "uncool" kids like us to do?
3. When there is a rainmaker who has most of the good deals in that practice group, do you have to just kiss asses if it is what you want to do?

You are a summer associate. It is not important at this stage of your career what deals you get staffed on. The point of the summer is to have a good or at least minimally stressful time and then collect your offer after doing shoddy to good work. You need to relax if this isn't a troll post.

[Anonymous User]

Is not doing a lot of substantive work over the summer going to harm me? So far I've done two research memos in email form. I'm shadowing two different matters / deals where I attend meetings weekly. For one of them as things come up, I'm asked to work on them. I'll be shadowing an associate in a practice group in the coming weeks. A pro bono assignment next week. I'm worried I haven't done anything substantive.

[ExpOriental]

Is not doing a lot of substantive work over the summer going to harm me? So far I've done two research memos in email form. I'm shadowing two different matters / deals where I attend meetings weekly. For one of them as things come up, I'm asked to work on them. I'll be shadowing an associate in a practice group in the coming weeks. A pro bono assignment next week. I'm worried I haven't done anything substantive.

Classic setup. They've decided you're not partner material and are laying the groundwork to push you out five years from now.

[Anonymous User]

Normal for some of the associates/partners to seem like they don't care that you're there?

[Res Ipsa Loquitter]

Normal for some of the associates/partners to seem like they don't care that you're there?

Going out to a lunch or drinks, billing it to the SA program and ignoring you would be a dick move.

Not caring that you’re in the office? Pretty typical. People have shit to do and an SA program has become a baseline requirement in order to hire juniors

[TigerIsBack]

SA at a v100 in a secondary market.

Associates in our office have been telling us not to worry about getting offers, and I appreciate that, but I'm wondering how far that goes. There are 2 other summers in my office, and they seem to be taking this idea and running with it: they're arriving late and leaving early without telling anyone; they're telling associates that they want particular summer events when no one is asking, and when our summer events have already been planned and organized in advance; they're turning down assignments when they're asked, even when they have 0 or 1 active assignments; they're saying that they're going to take days off regardless of what anyone at the firm says; and they aren't posting their relatively few assignments to our internal system (and we've been repeatedly instructed to do this).

The other SAs have started talking to me about how I'm doing too much, they're constantly reminding me that I don't need to worry about getting an offer, and now they're telling me that they're uncomfortable because I'm not arriving late/leaving early with them. I'm not gunning--I haven't asked for work at all, but I've been completing the assignments that are given to me, entering them in our internal system, and showing up/leaving on time.

I understand that we're all likely to get offers, but I do intend to work here after I graduate, and I don't want to be known as someone that is unreliable. At the same time, I don't want to alienate the other summers by acting differently. So far, I've just been keeping my head down and doing my thing, but should I change course at all? Am I overly concerned?

I also would add to this that you're not in law school anymore. This is now a real professional experience, and out of your summer class, you seem to be the only one doing it right/taking it seriously. Being mildly "gunnery" in the practice of law will only mean that you probably end up learning faster, getting more responsibility, getting better work and better reviews, which makes your miniscule chance of making partner slightly less miniscule. In law school being a gunner doesn't get you much except a v10 offer when you may have otherwise been at a v20 (which really doesn't matter at all).

So don't listen to those summers and just laugh it off and say you really enjoy the work or being in the office or whatever because your apartment is tiny and the office is nice or whatever, but keep doing what you're doing. Who knows where the market will go in a month -- better to be the summer most likely to get an offer if things got really bad economically.

[Anonymous User]

Normal for some of the associates/partners to seem like they don't care that you're there?

How are they supposed to demonstrate that they care?

[Anonymous User]

Normal for some of the associates/partners to seem like they don't care that you're there?

people are busy. this is a hard job. probably not personal at all.