NY to 200k?! Forum

[Anonymous User]

Don't firms bill out associates in mid-market offices at lower rates than NYC? How does a firm like Cooley or Gibson or something market and bill an NYC associate that lives in Kentucky vs. a Denver associate that lives in Idaho?

Not necessarily—CWT, for example, bills associates at all offices at the same rate.

[Anonymous User]

5th year lit associate (V5) here. Our department is swamped with no signs of slowing. We are hemorrhaging lit associates at a similar pace to trx.

[Lesion of Doom]

All of that cuts into the Yacht fund, which is why none of the super rich have any incentive to raise compensation over the market.

I agree with this. But why would Milbank folks make this move? They know everyone they compete with will match, so they don’t get any recruiting traction. I’m genuinely curious.

I think retention is a primary driver behind it. It's not like graduates have a bunch of 150k non-biglaw jobs nipping at the industry's heels, and if Milbank saw the raise as inevitable they decided to be first again. It's a great branding strategy: If you're going to do it anyway, might as well be first.

[Anonymous User]

Former Milbank associate - when I started, nobody knew who the fuck Milbank was (maybe it's different in NYC). Now everyone knows. That's why Milbank is doing it. They are a very rich firm that bills out as if they are a top firm but do not get the top firm reputation or top candidates. They had the money to throw around to buy prestige...twice.

[LBJ's Hair]

I dunno why people keep saying "I'd rather get a commitment to humane work-life balance than this cash."

Really, you would? They already fed you that bullshit during OCI/2L summer, and look how that turned out.

The money's real lmao, who wants some corporate HR babble

[NYto200K]

All of that cuts into the Yacht fund, which is why none of the super rich have any incentive to raise compensation over the market.

I agree with this. But why would Milbank folks make this move? They know everyone they compete with will match, so they don’t get any recruiting traction. I’m genuinely curious.

Last time they raised salaries, they jumped like 15-20 spots in the next edition of Vault's rankings. A lot of young associates see them as the market leader, at least to some degree, and we all know much law firms care about prestige.

"see them as the market leader"

SEE?!

Milbank raised the base salary twice. Two times. In a row.

Milbank has succeeded in coming up top in every bonus war over the past years.

Mil[lionsofdollarsinthe]bank is the market leader.

EDIT: Pro-tip. Google Milbank Scale from now on instead of Cravath Scale. A researcher a while back showed that the only reason people continue to think of Cravath as the leader is the rise in hits and results associated with market salary. It has long lost the "X Scale" title.

[Auxilio]

All of that cuts into the Yacht fund, which is why none of the super rich have any incentive to raise compensation over the market.

I agree with this. But why would Milbank folks make this move? They know everyone they compete with will match, so they don’t get any recruiting traction. I’m genuinely curious.

Last time they raised salaries, they jumped like 15-20 spots in the next edition of Vault's rankings. A lot of young associates see them as the market leader, at least to some degree, and we all know much law firms care about prestige.

"see them as the market leader"

SEE?!

Milbank raised the base salary twice. Two times. In a row.

Milbank has succeeded in coming up top in every bonus war over the past years.

Mil[lionsofdollarsinthe]bank is the market leader.

EDIT: Pro-tip. Google Milbank Scale from now on instead of Cravath Scale. A researcher a while back showed that the only reason people continue to think of Cravath as the leader is the rise in hits and results associated with market salary. It has long lost the "X Scale" title.

I mean, the reason I call it the "Cravath Scale" is that pre today's Milbank Scale the current scale was set by . . . Cravath. So I call it the Cravath Scale and others do too. Assuming no one tops Milbank, going forward it will be the Milbank Scale.

[legalpotato]

I dunno why people keep saying "I'd rather get a commitment to humane work-life balance than this cash."

Really, you would? They already fed you that bullshit during OCI/2L summer, and look how that turned out.

The money's real lmao, who wants some corporate HR babble

ok, "commitment" was a poor choice of words on my part. How about "tangible policies effective immediately"?

[jarofsoup]

I dunno why people keep saying "I'd rather get a commitment to humane work-life balance than this cash."

Really, you would? They already fed you that bullshit during OCI/2L summer, and look how that turned out.

The money's real lmao, who wants some corporate HR babble

Yes we are fantasizing about something that does not exist, but let us have our moment

[Anonymous User]

Don't firms bill out associates in mid-market offices at lower rates than NYC? How does a firm like Cooley or Gibson or something market and bill an NYC associate that lives in Kentucky vs. a Denver associate that lives in Idaho?

Not necessarily—CWT, for example, bills associates at all offices at the same rate.

Yeah, I was at a Latham office not in NYC or LA and I was billed out at very similar to the NYC office (like within $100 per hour). Top tier work commands top tier rates all over the place. Additionally, the cost for venture work (Cooley for example) doesn't vary greatly by region.

[Anonymous User]

Not really sure I follow your logic here at all. If you bill your associates out more, you're more incentived to retain them not less, and raises are less costly to you as a portion of profitability, not more. The firms that don't want to move salaries are the high leverage/low margin ones, not the S&Cs of the world.

Billing rates vary widely over the V100 but compensation is mostly flat, which is an oddity of the legal industry.

Result of this system is that the top ∼30 most profitable firms are each granted a money printer because they can get away with paying only the 190k scale when they bill out associates at more than double the rates of other firms.

That's a very profitable system that firms like Sullcrom/DPW/Cravath want to preserve.

If comp is pushed too high, less profitable firms may not be able to match and the nice flat system of comp where all V100 pay equivalent salaries may break down.

If that happens, compensation will become a differentiating factor between different firms, and thus firms will have to compete with each other more on the basis of compensation.

All of that cuts into the Yacht fund, which is why none of the super rich have any incentive to raise compensation over the market.

Maybe... but a lot of the top tier firms are turning down work (hence the crazy lateral bonuses). Why not just bury Katten and steal their associates? That being said, I haven't applied for a job at Kirkland (and won't) because I'm not sure what the number is that I need to bill more hours, but it's certainly higher than the $200-300K I am hearing about.

[Moneytrees]

All of that cuts into the Yacht fund, which is why none of the super rich have any incentive to raise compensation over the market.

I agree with this. But why would Milbank folks make this move? They know everyone they compete with will match, so they don’t get any recruiting traction. I’m genuinely curious.

Last time they raised salaries, they jumped like 15-20 spots in the next edition of Vault's rankings. A lot of young associates see them as the market leader, at least to some degree, and we all know much law firms care about prestige.

"see them as the market leader"

SEE?!

Milbank raised the base salary twice. Two times. In a row.

Milbank has succeeded in coming up top in every bonus war over the past years.

Mil[lionsofdollarsinthe]bank is the market leader.

EDIT: Pro-tip. Google Milbank Scale from now on instead of Cravath Scale. A researcher a while back showed that the only reason people continue to think of Cravath as the leader is the rise in hits and results associated with market salary. It has long lost the "X Scale" title.

I mean, the reason I call it the "Cravath Scale" is that pre today's Milbank Scale the current scale was set by . . . Cravath. So I call it the Cravath Scale and others do too. Assuming no one tops Milbank, going forward it will be the Milbank Scale.

This is the third time Milbank has raised salaries and set the market. It was the first mover to 180k, followed by the move to 190k two years later. I suppose there really is no reason to refer to the Biglaw salary scale as the “Cravath Scale” anymore.

[Moneytrees]

All of that cuts into the Yacht fund, which is why none of the super rich have any incentive to raise compensation over the market.

I agree with this. But why would Milbank folks make this move? They know everyone they compete with will match, so they don’t get any recruiting traction. I’m genuinely curious.

Last time they raised salaries, they jumped like 15-20 spots in the next edition of Vault's rankings. A lot of young associates see them as the market leader, at least to some degree, and we all know much law firms care about prestige.

"see them as the market leader"

SEE?!

Milbank raised the base salary twice. Two times. In a row.

Milbank has succeeded in coming up top in every bonus war over the past years.

Mil[lionsofdollarsinthe]bank is the market leader.

EDIT: Pro-tip. Google Milbank Scale from now on instead of Cravath Scale. A researcher a while back showed that the only reason people continue to think of Cravath as the leader is the rise in hits and results associated with market salary. It has long lost the "X Scale" title.

I mean, the reason I call it the "Cravath Scale" is that pre today's Milbank Scale the current scale was set by . . . Cravath. So I call it the Cravath Scale and others do too. Assuming no one tops Milbank, going forward it will be the Milbank Scale.

This is the third time Milbank has raised salaries and set the market. It was the first mover to 180k, followed by the move to 190k two years later. I suppose there really is no reason to refer to the Biglaw salary scale as the “Cravath Scale” anymore.

Unless Cravath comes over the top and goes to 210k, that is...

[Anonymous User]

All of that cuts into the Yacht fund, which is why none of the super rich have any incentive to raise compensation over the market.

I agree with this. But why would Milbank folks make this move? They know everyone they compete with will match, so they don’t get any recruiting traction. I’m genuinely curious.

Last time they raised salaries, they jumped like 15-20 spots in the next edition of Vault's rankings. A lot of young associates see them as the market leader, at least to some degree, and we all know much law firms care about prestige.

"see them as the market leader"

SEE?!

Milbank raised the base salary twice. Two times. In a row.

Milbank has succeeded in coming up top in every bonus war over the past years.

Mil[lionsofdollarsinthe]bank is the market leader.

EDIT: Pro-tip. Google Milbank Scale from now on instead of Cravath Scale. A researcher a while back showed that the only reason people continue to think of Cravath as the leader is the rise in hits and results associated with market salary. It has long lost the "X Scale" title.

I mean, the reason I call it the "Cravath Scale" is that pre today's Milbank Scale the current scale was set by . . . Cravath. So I call it the Cravath Scale and others do too. Assuming no one tops Milbank, going forward it will be the Milbank Scale.

This is the third time Milbank has raised salaries and set the market. It was the first mover to 180k, followed by the move to 190k two years later. I suppose there really is no reason to refer to the Biglaw salary scale as the “Cravath Scale” anymore.

Unless Cravath comes over the top and goes to 210k, that is...

I’m at Cravath and would be shocked if we went over the top. There has been terrible turnover both in corporate and litigation but the partners think we are all overpaid and should just be grateful for the opportunity to work at their law firm.

[Auxilio]

This is the third time Milbank has raised salaries and set the market. It was the first mover to 180k, followed by the move to 190k two years later. I suppose there really is no reason to refer to the Biglaw salary scale as the “Cravath Scale” anymore.

Except the last time Milbank was the first mover, but then Cravath raised further for the mid/seniors. Hence, the final scale that became market was the "Cravath Scale." Don't get me wrong, I praise MIlbank a lot and give them 10s everytime I do Vault etc., but the most recent (pre-today) scale was the one set by Cravath even if Milbank led the boost to 190k.

[Pulsar]

I don't know why any sane person would go to Cravath over some other prestigious law firm. At Cravath, the only guarantee is that you will get worked to death, and will never make a penny more than market. Other firms might have a marginally less shitty lifestyle and you might also get nice little bits of extra $$ every once in awhile depending on where you are at.

Also I dunno how good their deal people are, but the litigators I have worked with/across from are mediocre at best (it's no longer true that you're going to be learning from the greatest, if it ever was).

[Anonymous User]

If your firm has not matched by July 1, 2021 yet, you are leaving $$ on the table (the delta of what your current salary is vs. the new market) and the firm remains more profitable for one or more months. It's a strong incentive for partners to drag their feet to keep more $$ in their pockets.

It's better to be at one of the first-mover firms to maximize the amount of $$ you make over your associate years.

[ChairmanKaga]

I'm putting my cards on the table: I think one of DPW/Cravath/STB will come in over the top of Milbank, abeit only slighty (maybe a 200/210/235/270/300/325/345/360 scale).

[2013]

If your firm has not matched by July 1, 2021 yet, you are leaving $$ on the table (the delta of what your current salary is vs. the new market) and the firm remains more profitable for one or more months. It's a strong incentive for partners to drag their feet to keep more $$ in their pockets.

It's better to be at one of the first-mover firms to maximize the amount of $$ you make over your associate years.

There are firms that will just retroactively implement back to July 1…

[Anonymous User]

I don't know why any sane person would go to Cravath over some other prestigious law firm. At Cravath, the only guarantee is that you will get worked to death, and will never make a penny more than market. Other firms might have a marginally less shitty lifestyle and you might also get nice little bits of extra $$ every once in awhile depending on where you are at.

Also I dunno how good their deal people are, but the litigators I have worked with/across from are mediocre at best (it's no longer true that you're going to be learning from the greatest, if it ever was).

Is it easier to lateral and make partner elsewhere (V10) coming from Cravath?

[Anonymous User]

Sooo...the burning question...do we think regional markets (like Delaware) will make any moves for a region-adjusted match? Not sure how this worked last time

[Anonymous User]

All of that cuts into the Yacht fund, which is why none of the super rich have any incentive to raise compensation over the market.

I agree with this. But why would Milbank folks make this move? They know everyone they compete with will match, so they don’t get any recruiting traction. I’m genuinely curious.

Last time they raised salaries, they jumped like 15-20 spots in the next edition of Vault's rankings. A lot of young associates see them as the market leader, at least to some degree, and we all know much law firms care about prestige.

"see them as the market leader"

SEE?!

Milbank raised the base salary twice. Two times. In a row.

Milbank has succeeded in coming up top in every bonus war over the past years.

Mil[lionsofdollarsinthe]bank is the market leader.

EDIT: Pro-tip. Google Milbank Scale from now on instead of Cravath Scale. A researcher a while back showed that the only reason people continue to think of Cravath as the leader is the rise in hits and results associated with market salary. It has long lost the "X Scale" title.

I mean, the reason I call it the "Cravath Scale" is that pre today's Milbank Scale the current scale was set by . . . Cravath. So I call it the Cravath Scale and others do too. Assuming no one tops Milbank, going forward it will be the Milbank Scale.

This is the third time Milbank has raised salaries and set the market. It was the first mover to 180k, followed by the move to 190k two years later. I suppose there really is no reason to refer to the Biglaw salary scale as the “Cravath Scale” anymore.

Cravath set the 180k scale.

[Anonymous User]

All of that cuts into the Yacht fund, which is why none of the super rich have any incentive to raise compensation over the market.

I agree with this. But why would Milbank folks make this move? They know everyone they compete with will match, so they don’t get any recruiting traction. I’m genuinely curious.

I think retention is a primary driver behind it. It's not like graduates have a bunch of 150k non-biglaw jobs nipping at the industry's heels, and if Milbank saw the raise as inevitable they decided to be first again. It's a great branding strategy: If you're going to do it anyway, might as well be first.

I wonder if a single associate was retained with the raise. Do a few hundred after-tax dollars a month move the needle for an associate looking to jump ship? Obviously that's real money for real people, but for the associates that are gunning for partner, or those that are already eyeing the exit, or those that are sticking it out just long enough to pay off SoFi, isn't everyone just shrugging their shoulders at this?

[Anonymous User]

All of that cuts into the Yacht fund, which is why none of the super rich have any incentive to raise compensation over the market.

I agree with this. But why would Milbank folks make this move? They know everyone they compete with will match, so they don’t get any recruiting traction. I’m genuinely curious.

With inflation at 2-3% per year, adding 10-15k to the salary scale is more of an inflation adjustment than an actual raise in real dollar terms


So in some sense it costs Milbank very little to do and in return they get to cuck Cravath and get vault prestige. Honestly pretty smart.

[Anonymous User]

Have any non-NY firms matched yet?